Why was Shinji strangling Asuka at the end of EoE?

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Postby aboose » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:41 pm

Care to enlighten me? I always thought that perception of reality and those around you was a big theme, moreover making perfect sense with EoTV because he doesn't want to run away from the pain anymore.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:52 pm

View Original Postaboose wrote:Care to enlighten me? I always thought that perception of reality and those around you was a big theme, moreover making perfect sense with EoTV because he doesn't want to run away from the pain anymore.


That's pushing it too far, IMO. Perception of reality in EoTV pertains to interpreting the behavior of others toward you, and making the best of your situation. Going mad because you can't tell what's real and what isn't is distorting the theme something fierce.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Xavierla » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:57 pm

If you know the concept of ego, superego and id you would know that there is special field of pychology which studies this concept known as psychoanalysis. Within this field there is a new theory called superid. This concept is the idea that when ego death is reached and the super ego and the id cancel each other out that the brain instead completely snapping into two ( metaphorically speaking) that it would actually pull out a new force called the superid. The superid loves its self in the sense looks into his/her well being and will do anything to reach supreme satisfaction at an extreme level while also hating it's self because of its horrible nature and shows great empathy towards others. It also hates and loves other people in the sense that they go against its wishes and it's choices and only wants them to focus on its well being while it also thinks that everybody and everything is much better than it and admires them for that and shows great thanks and empathy towards them. I believe that this is what happened in the last scene of EoE to Shinji and Asuka.

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:37 pm

View Original PostXavierla wrote:If you know the concept of ego, superego and id you would know that there is special field of pychology which studies this concept known as psychoanalysis. Within this field there is a new theory called superid. This concept is the idea that when ego death is reached and the super ego and the id cancel each other out that the brain instead completely snapping into two ( metaphorically speaking) that it would actually pull out a new force called the superid. The superid loves its self in the sense looks into his/her well being and will do anything to reach supreme satisfaction at an extreme level while also hating it's self because of its horrible nature and shows great empathy towards others. It also hates and loves other people in the sense that they go against its wishes and it's choices and only wants them to focus on its well being while it also thinks that everybody and everything is much better than it and admires them for that and shows great thanks and empathy towards them. I believe that this is what happened in the last scene of EoE to Shinji and Asuka.


Sounds like run of the mill BPD to me.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby gchristnsn » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:26 pm

View Original Posttrkk-KAAN wrote:also why did Asuka caress Shinji's cheek when he strangled her at EoE? why did Shinji cry after she caressed his cheek too? did Asuka change? who? what? where? when? why?


Basically, they both had a hedgehog in them, Shinji was seeking for care, because he had lack of care being deserted and perceived himself miserable, Asuka was trying to show her pride, because she thought that she was chosen for her talents and perceived herself perfect, thinking that she can only account to herself (but actually she can't) to compensate the lack of the mother, although she was chosen just because only she can synchronize with 02.

Seek for care stings Asuka (she thinks that it's miserable), Asuka's ambition stings Shinji, here is the dilemma. Before the complementation he had psychoanalysis session from the lance (the point of this session is the explanation above), and this is the clue for his actions (he also chokes her there). Before the complementation he thinks that there is no need in society because he is useless (his motivation is to be useful, because he only can obtain care from his father being useful) and turns on the complementation. Being complemented he realizes that this is a yet another escape, because there would be no meaning of life for him in eternal solitude (and this was the point of Yui's intricate agenda to "teach" him solitude through desertion and the hedgehog dilemma), and turns off the complementation. He now realizes, that it's pointless to run from hedgehogs and tries to revenge Asuka for the pain (defence mechanisms [this is a psychological term] which prevented him to do this are broken by the analysis session before the complementation) but she cares about him (probably she also learned this lesson), and the dilemma is breaked.

There is no clues to explain why he cries, so it may be just irrational emotions of relief.
Some information on NME

- Simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones. - Occam's razor
- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:29 am

Does Asuka caressing Shinji's cheek imply that she still has feelings for him? Even though it seems like she still has feelings for Shinji, immediately afterwards she says "I feel sick" (in "the coldest voice possible"), which seems to be directed at Shinji. It seems she's disgusted at him for trying to kill her, but then why did she caress his cheek in the first place? Why didn't she just push him off or resist violently? It seems that both Shinji and Asuka are very confused about their actions during this scene, possibly due to having experienced Instrumentality. Although I still find it strange that Asuka would choose to revive when she'd have to be alone with Shinji.
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Postby gchristnsn » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:16 am

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:Does Asuka caressing Shinji's cheek imply that she still has feelings for him? Even though it seems like she still has feelings for Shinji, immediately afterwards she says "I feel sick" (in "the coldest voice possible"), which seems to be directed at Shinji. It seems she's disgusted at him for trying to kill her, but then why did she caress his cheek in the first place? Why didn't she just push him off or resist violently? It seems that both Shinji and Asuka are very confused about their actions during this scene, possibly due to having experienced Instrumentality.


It's more interesting why she hasn't done anything while he was choking her. Probably she thought that it's better to die than give care to such a miserable man (because of her pride, and because she believed that anyone should account only to himself). But her actions indicate that she has understood what Shinji needs (care), and she has understood that she can't account only to herself (so, she has understood Shinji).

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:Although I still find it strange that Asuka would choose to revive when she'd have to be alone with Shinji.


Shinji returned souls of all the humanity into the ocean of LCL, and Ayanami said that only people who have dreams which define their future will materialize from LCL (so a part of the humanity will materialize, and this was shown as a possibility during Shinji's meditations in the ocean). This was Yui's dream (to leave humanity as is) and it has fulfilled.
Some information on NME

- Simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones. - Occam's razor
- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper
- Anything you're good at contributes to happiness. - Bertrand Russell

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Postby Der Kommissar » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:35 pm

It's possible to care about someone or pity them and still be disgusted with them. Like the line it replaced, I tend to take 'kimochi warui' to be an immediate commentary on Shinji's behavior - that is, bawling into her chest. Just because she showed some compassion doesn't mean she's not upset at Shinji or disgusted with his crying.

Why does Asuka caress him instead of violently resisting? Personal opinion, it's to show that she too has gained perspective thanks to Instrumentality. Asuka throughout the series is very given to misunderstanding others and her feelings for Shinji - such that they are - are extremely possessive/selfish (she's pretty bald about this in the pre-Instrumentality traincar scene in EoE). Old Asuka probably would've lashed out or let herself be killed (as she was 'killed' in that pre-Instrumentality scene). Final scene Asuka instead understands why Shinji's behaving like he is and offers the compassion she previously refused.

As for why Asuka returns, we do know that she dealt with a lot of the same issues as Shinji, and it's not too surprisingly that she came to some of the same conclusions when faced with Instrumentality. It's also worth noting that she had persistent romantic intentions on Shinji, though I very seriously doubt those were what brought her back.

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Postby Infinite Freedom Machine » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:58 pm

He learned how to communicate by being reduced to interconnected spiritual goo, of course. Now he can finally express all of his wonderful emotions.
It's the only NEET thing to do.

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Postby gchristnsn » Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:01 am

View Original PostInfinite Freedom Machine wrote:He learned how to communicate by being reduced to interconnected spiritual goo, of course. Now he can finally express all of his wonderful emotions.


He just understood that the hedgehog's dilemma is equal to eternal solitude of a singular complete being, so there would be no meaning of life for him in either case.

And I forgot one thing. Facts that Asuka have the eyepatch, they have clothes on them, Misato's cross is covered by stains of rust indicate that they are not alone in this world and just walking ashore in the night.
Some information on NME

- Simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones. - Occam's razor
- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper
- Anything you're good at contributes to happiness. - Bertrand Russell

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Postby Blue Monday » Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:46 am

In reply to the last point above:
Shinji would be the one that put the grave markers up as he had Misato's cross in his possession (He's been alone in this post-3I/Instrumentality world for an undetermined amount of time).

It's also shown that when Shinji is reformed/coming up/out of the sea of LCL, he has his clothes on:

Image

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Postby Warren Peace » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:48 am

It's not a given that Shinji was tanged at all. There's even a deleted moment from the script showing the entry plug falling into the sea. That wasn't animated so the whole thing is debatable, but it's possible he retained his original form.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:50 am

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:It's not a given that Shinji was tanged at all.
We see it happen. I'm sure the appropriate .gif will get posted.
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Postby Warren Peace » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:15 am

I may need to see EoE again (it has been a while). Close to what event(s) in the film?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:24 am

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:I may need to see EoE again (it has been a while). Close to what event(s) in the film?
When Shinji is asked "what is it you wish for?" and he goes all delirious and rippled against a background of a woman's upper torso.
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Postby Warren Peace » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:36 am

I thought that might be what you meant. If one wants to look at that as his tangification, it's a valid POV. I could understand that. But I don't think it's so obvious as to rule out any other possibility. We don't actually see it happen, at least in the same way it happens to others. But it's not something I care THAT much about, so I'll leave it there.

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Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:20 am

So, uh...what about the part where Shinji and Rei are literally fused together and Rei is going on about how form and individuality don't exist anymore and things are in the primordial state? How could that entire scene have been possible if Shinji wasn't tanged?
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Postby Blue Monday » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:57 am

Very true... Pic for emphasis:

Image
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:41 am

We also never see Asuka or Misato tanged, and yet P3II. Also also, Yui's somehow caressing his face even though she has no body, and Rei and Kaworu are likewise having conversations with him even though they likewise have no physical form at the time.

Not much to work with here.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Jayfive » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:00 am

View Original PostBlue Monday wrote:In reply to the last point above:
Shinji would be the one that put the grave markers up as he had Misato's cross in his possession (He's been alone in this post-3I/Instrumentality world for an undetermined amount of time).

It's also shown that when Shinji is reformed/coming up/out of the sea of LCL, he has his clothes on:

Image


That gif shows some odd expressions given whats gone before and where he currently is. He goes from slightly bored and then like someone's poked him in the ribs his face changed to vaguely annoyed. Like he's just missed the bus or something.

Basically its:
'Oh where the hell am I now....oh goddammit'


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