Why was Shinji strangling Asuka at the end of EoE?

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:42 pm

View Original Postsymbv wrote:As Tines said, going from EoTV to EoE looks odd to so many viewers in Japan. The fact that you don't find it odd strikes me as odd. :p


But doesn't the progression from EoTV to EoE make sense when you consider--for one thing--the original Laser Disc release for the TV/Film endings?

http://svenge.pcriot.com/evasite/jpld/kila161.htm

http://svenge.pcriot.com/evasite/jpld/kila311.htm

( http://svenge.pcriot.com/index.htm )

And of course within the both episode endings, similar dialogue and imagery.
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Postby symbv » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:55 pm

^ I am not sure how many viewers of the movies saw the LD before they watched the movies. Besides similar dialogues could produce different effects if they were used differently. As I said, the reactions of the viewers to EoTV and EoE seemed to me very different -- I do not think just the similarity of dialogues or imagery was sufficient to create a necessary link between EoTV and EoE. (although looking at how just a few similar scenes taken from TV series in NME were enough for some old fans to start to link NME back to NGE, perhaps it is possible for some people after all)
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:17 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:But doesn't the progression from EoTV to EoE make sense when you consider--for one thing--the original Laser Disc release for the TV/Film endings?

At the very least they tried to create this effect, but they stopped doing it in successive releases since 1999 so I wonder if they simply gave up on it.
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Postby JoeD80 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:50 pm

On the Laserdisc release they had the new 30-second previews in place of the 15-second ones that aired on TV. The 15-second previews were included as special features on the discs. However, on the disc for episode 24, *both* the 15-second preview for TV 25 and 30-second preview for Movie 25 play as part of the episode instead of having a special feature. Arguments could be made for going in any direction after #24.

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Postby Reichu » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:08 pm

We definitely need a split. If someone can help me out with what exactly the subject has become, I'll make it so.

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Postby NemZ » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:17 pm

the real topic is, as always, "wtf Anno?" with a side of "no, you're wrong." :D
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Postby symbv » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:40 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:We definitely need a split. If someone can help me out with what exactly the subject has become, I'll make it so.

I would rather keep everything in this thread. As Bagheera said, there are connection to the original topic for all the concurrency discussions we made. Besides I think the concurrency discussions is already petering out - at least I think I have made my case quite clear already and so I don't think I would say more on concurrency in this thread unless it is directly related to the end scene of EoE.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:50 am

The derailment's done, and a split at this point would be very messy. Too much of the concurrency bit was tied directly to the subject matter of the thread, so splitting things would make the thread an incomprehensible hackjob. Just leave it be, we'll be good. :)
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Postby Karex_Usyrion » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:57 am

Thanks for not splitting this, seems it works better.
Support of the reasons for the strangulation leads one way or another depending on whether you perceive Shinji as being more lucid and rational or if you perceive greater mental breakdown given such an ordeal. This thread contained all and more theories than I had in my reference materials except for this last one:

The passage of time at the end of EoE is not straight forward: it is the resolving confluence stage for multiple time dislocations. Rei3-Lilith-Adam delivers Asuka to Shinji and he turns to strangle her for repetition; he re-enacts this as seen in the instrumentality kitchen in a motion like walking back to the room you were last in where you knew and sitting in the same postion to be able to fully remember, understand, collapse time and be able to conclusively turn reality back on. Shinji is trying but Asuka's hand gesture is the only external trigger that finally achieves this for him.
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Postby katastroff » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:24 pm

I don't know if this already came up, but remember that story about how Anno wasn't satisfied with the last line: http://wiki.evageeks.org/Statements_by_Evangelion_Staff#Interview_with_Yuko_Miyamura_.28BS_AnimeYAWA.29

I try not to use outside evidence for interpretations, but I always thought this line helped frame analysis of the final scene:
At last Anno asked me "Miyamura, just imagine you are sleeping in your bed and a stranger sneaks into your room. He can rape you anytime as you are asleep but he doesn't. Instead, he masturbates looking at you, when you wake up and know what he did to you. What do you think you would say?" I had been thinking he was a strange man, but at that moment I felt disgusting. So I told him that I thought "Disgusting". And then he sighed and said "... thought as much." He said. " I thought as much. "


The whole set up where "violator" does something criminal, but not without first revealing some deeper intentions, reminds me of another story: A women was held up at knife-point by a rapist. He told her politely what was going to happen, and asked for her permission to put on a condom. She accepts, and he asks her to wait a patiently as he puts it on. Its alleged that this women was more traumatized by his manner than by the actual physical rape itself. Why was this man being polite? What reason did he have to put on a condom? Did he have aids, some disease, some history, and forced into a desperate situation?

The victims in both stories are confronted with "otherness," the exposure to another conscious agent, another person's truth/reality (the kind explained in EoTV). In Anno's story, the choice he gives to the victim is of two things: to acknowledge otherness, or to reject it. To me, this is the choice presented throughout the whole series, whether to connect with others or reject them. In the final scene, after all that HIP intervention, we see Shinji and Asuka given this choice again as a final test. To each other, they are the ultimate "otherness."

So did they accept or reject? I think they accept. I read the gestures of this scene allegorically, rather than practically. The roles are reversed: Shinji is violent and active, Asuka submitting and passive. They are behaving unlike they would before, expressing themselves in ways that were normally repressed. Shinji's strangling, and Asuka's passiveness and tender caress, are gestures of vulnerability. Asuka is acknowledging Shinji's otherness in her caress. Shinji, realizing this, accepts Asuka as well and releases her, taken aback, overwhelmed. They reach an understanding, make a connection, and pass the test.

Just for completeness: After the strangle-caress exchange, it seems like they revert back to their normal selves. Shinji is weeping and Asuka delivers her line. So what about the line? If the above story is true, Anno wasn't exactly satisfied with "kimochi warui," as it does seem like a rejection of his choice. Good thing its ambiguous enough. If we see the reactions after the strangle-caress as a moment of gratitude, a display of their normal selves, it doesn't contradict. The incarnation is complete, and we have expressed in this scene the whole of each other's individuality in full acceptance.
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Postby DanYeomans » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:57 am

Shinji's reaction: "So the world ended, that's great. Oh god, Asuka's here! I have to deal with bitching and whining! Wait... is it just me and her? Does that mean... I have to... No way. If that's what has to be done to bring back humanity, then fuck humanity."

*Strangle*
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Postby trkk-KAAN » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:04 pm

also why did Asuka caress Shinji's cheek when he strangled her at EoE? why did Shinji cry after she caressed his cheek too? did Asuka change? who? what? where? when? why?

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Postby Ornette » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:14 pm

View Original Posttrkk-KAAN wrote:also why did Asuka caress Shinji's cheek when he strangled her at EoE? why did Shinji cry after she caressed his cheek too? did Asuka change? who? what? where? when? why?

You should try reading over this thread, there are several posts that address your questions.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:10 am

View Original Posttrkk-KAAN wrote:also why did Asuka caress Shinji's cheek when he strangled her at EoE? why did Shinji cry after she caressed his cheek too? did Asuka change? who? what? where? when? why?

View Original Posttrkk-KAAN wrote:i also have one question,

why did Asuka caress Shinji's cheek when he strangled her at the final scene of The End of Evangelion? why did Shinji cry after she caressed his cheek too? did Asuka change? who? what? where? when? why?

Why do you ask the same question in two different threads?
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Postby Ceimoa Nan » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:46 pm

View Original Posttrkk-KAAN wrote:also why did Asuka caress Shinji's cheek when he strangled her at EoE? why did Shinji cry after she caressed his cheek too? did Asuka change? who? what? where? when? why?


For some reason I think, a little cynically, that Asuka was just doing what she knew would get Shinji to stop choking her. She knew showing him affection like his mother did before leaving Earth would bring him back to reality. But Asuka didn't really feel any sympathy for him. Maybe I think that because it's hard to reconcile Asuka feeling sorry for Shinji with her also being disgusted by him. But, yeah, I guess Asuka can feel compassion for him while also being disgusted. I mean, if Asuka just wanted him to stop chocking her, maybe she could've just punched him in the face. (Would've been a great alternate ending.) Even I haven't made up my mind on what exactly the two of them are feeling in that scene.

Shinji cried because... well, I know it's important that the way Asuka put her hand on Shinji's cheek was almost exactly how Yui put her's on Shinji's cheek when she was saying her goodbye, just one or two scenes earlier. Maybe he cried because he was reminded of his mother, or maybe because he realized how disgusting he was, or maybe because he realized that even after he told his mother he would try to get along with people, the first one he sees he tries to kill, which is kinda hypocritical.

So, if Asuka was just faking compassion in order to get Shinji to stop choking her, I'd say she was the same as she was before Instrumentality. If she honestly felt compassion for Shinji even as he was trying to kill her, I'd say she'd changed.

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Postby Chrad » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:24 am

I don't think the reason for Shinji's crying is any great mystery.
It just makes perfect sense given the circumstances. Any and all of the reasons in the previous post make sense, but if I had to boil it down to just one answer, I like to think that he realised that he was wrong about life only being a source of pain, and that he really does need other people. So he's feeling disgust at himself for his actions and worldview, but is also overwhelmed at the revelation of a view of life that had never entered his mind before.

To me it's an ending about contradictory emotions, so I like to think that Asuka was sincerely feeling compassion, yet also genuine in her expression of disgust.

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Postby aboose » Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:19 am

View Original PostLeoXiao wrote:But the point is that it's not so much malice towards Asuka driving him, as the result of his entire value system having been wrecked and, with no alternative, him feeling utmost loathing towards humanity. This hate of flawed humankind has now replaced his old value system, he has lost his belief in it, but the habit is still there, so he tries to kill Asuka, his fellow human, with the same countenance as he would kill an Angel. This is where the "Humanity is the 18th Angel" line becomes all too true.


While a lot of what this thread has been lost through tangential discussion, I find this to be one of the most acute descriptions of the beach scene I've ever read. Bravo.

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Postby Monk Ed » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:01 am

View Original Postaboose wrote:While a lot of what this thread has been lost through tangential discussion, I find this to be one of the most acute descriptions of the beach scene I've ever read. Bravo.

Wait, but it doesn't jibe with what you said in the other thread. I thought you supported the idea that he was strangling Asuka to confirm reality, not because he wanted to kill somebody.
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Postby aboose » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:09 pm

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:Wait, but it doesn't jibe with what you said in the other thread. I thought you supported the idea that he was strangling Asuka to confirm reality, not because he wanted to kill somebody.


You're right, and I don't totally agree with his entire post, but I do agree with some parts of it.

As if I have any authority on the subject, but I could imagine that he returns to earth out of the LCL all alone in a mindset of intense peace and enlightenment, after realizing in Instrumentality that he does in fact want to enjoy the range of emotions that being physically alive and having AT fields has.

However, once he returns to earth he wants to express his new-found love and perception of humanity, a significant amount of time passes and he feels betrayed by all the other humans who he tried to "save," goes nuts, and gains a hatred for mankind and loses his grip on reality.

If I had to choose one, I'd say losing his grip on reality is the answer I prefer, but I don't see why it couldn't be both.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:29 pm

View Original Postaboose wrote:If I had to choose one, I'd say losing his grip on reality is the answer I prefer, but I don't see why it couldn't be both.


I would point you toward the show's basic themes before deliberating further. Neither of these explanations really seem to fit with the whole hedgehog business, and both make both EoTV and EoE essentially meaningless.
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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