Why was Shinji strangling Asuka at the end of EoE?

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Postby Blue Monday » Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:46 am

In reply to the last point above:
Shinji would be the one that put the grave markers up as he had Misato's cross in his possession (He's been alone in this post-3I/Instrumentality world for an undetermined amount of time).

It's also shown that when Shinji is reformed/coming up/out of the sea of LCL, he has his clothes on:

Image

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Postby Warren Peace » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:48 am

It's not a given that Shinji was tanged at all. There's even a deleted moment from the script showing the entry plug falling into the sea. That wasn't animated so the whole thing is debatable, but it's possible he retained his original form.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:50 am

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:It's not a given that Shinji was tanged at all.
We see it happen. I'm sure the appropriate .gif will get posted.
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Postby Warren Peace » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:15 am

I may need to see EoE again (it has been a while). Close to what event(s) in the film?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:24 am

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:I may need to see EoE again (it has been a while). Close to what event(s) in the film?
When Shinji is asked "what is it you wish for?" and he goes all delirious and rippled against a background of a woman's upper torso.
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Postby Warren Peace » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:36 am

I thought that might be what you meant. If one wants to look at that as his tangification, it's a valid POV. I could understand that. But I don't think it's so obvious as to rule out any other possibility. We don't actually see it happen, at least in the same way it happens to others. But it's not something I care THAT much about, so I'll leave it there.

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Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:20 am

So, uh...what about the part where Shinji and Rei are literally fused together and Rei is going on about how form and individuality don't exist anymore and things are in the primordial state? How could that entire scene have been possible if Shinji wasn't tanged?
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Postby Blue Monday » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:57 am

Very true... Pic for emphasis:

Image
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:41 am

We also never see Asuka or Misato tanged, and yet P3II. Also also, Yui's somehow caressing his face even though she has no body, and Rei and Kaworu are likewise having conversations with him even though they likewise have no physical form at the time.

Not much to work with here.
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Postby Jayfive » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:00 am

View Original PostBlue Monday wrote:In reply to the last point above:
Shinji would be the one that put the grave markers up as he had Misato's cross in his possession (He's been alone in this post-3I/Instrumentality world for an undetermined amount of time).

It's also shown that when Shinji is reformed/coming up/out of the sea of LCL, he has his clothes on:

Image


That gif shows some odd expressions given whats gone before and where he currently is. He goes from slightly bored and then like someone's poked him in the ribs his face changed to vaguely annoyed. Like he's just missed the bus or something.

Basically its:
'Oh where the hell am I now....oh goddammit'

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Postby Blue Monday » Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:47 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:We also never see Asuka or Misato tanged, and yet P3II.

Misato:

Image
We also see a similar shot of Ritsuko; her clothing floating in the LCL pool in Terminal Dogma. No Asuka though.
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Postby Monk Ed » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:20 pm

View Original PostJayfive wrote:That gif shows some odd expressions given whats gone before and where he currently is. He goes from slightly bored and then like someone's poked him in the ribs his face changed to vaguely annoyed. Like he's just missed the bus or something.

Basically its:
'Oh where the hell am I now....oh goddammit'

It amazes me how completely differently people will interpret an expression. I see that as a look of determination.

It reminds me of this one long argument I had many summers ago with a guy over who was stronger in DBZ, Kid Buu or Super Buu. (Hey, it's not like arguing over which soul is in Unit 00 is any more substantial.) Our complicated justifications ultimately hinged on the interpretation of Goku's face in a single panel. I saw his expression as one of being troubled, like "Oh man we're really in a jam", a grimace. The other party saw it as a cocky smirk. (For the record, I was in the Super Buu camp. The chain of logic each of us came up with was pret-ty long and convoluted.)

In retrospect, hilarious.
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Postby Blue Monday » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:24 pm

Haha, that's way OT but yeah; Super Buu is way more powerful than Kid.

To me, Shinji's expression in that scene is just mellowed out (Or perhaps soothed) after his talk with Rei-Lilith and Yui respectively, then the awareness hitting him of the GNR head right in front of him. That would probably make anyone start.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:23 pm

View Original PostBlue Monday wrote:Haha, that's way OT but yeah; Super Buu is way more powerful than Kid.


Yeah, that's pretty much a no-brainer. I mean, Goku and Vegeta were holding Kid Buu at bay at SSJ2, while it took Vegeto to deal with Super Buu. There's really no comparison between the two.

To me, Shinji's expression in that scene is just mellowed out (Or perhaps soothed) after his talk with Rei-Lilith and Yui respectively, then the awareness hitting him of the GNR head right in front of him. That would probably make anyone start.


I gotta say, I never paid much attention to his expression here. Maybe I should've, but it mattered not at all not a minute later so . . .
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Postby Der Kommissar » Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:02 pm

View Original PostBlue Monday wrote:Misato:

*snip image*
We also see a similar shot of Ritsuko; her clothing floating in the LCL pool in Terminal Dogma. No Asuka though.


Probably the better part of her plug is scattered around the local area or in a MP unit's belly. Either way I don't think we want to see the inside of the plug.

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Postby Ceimoa Nan » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:38 pm

A possibly ridiculous question about tanging; if Shinji is tanged inside his entry plug, and the LCL inside the entry plug is closed off from the rest of the world, can he reform anywhere there's LCL, or only in the entry plug? A way of rephrasing this question might be, Do the particles of LCL that made up your body when you were tanged have to be the same particles that make you up when you're reformed? Or does your physical body "data" get beamed from one body of LCL to another, like teleportation? (I suspect this is an unanswerable question.)

That might explain why they considered a scene where Shinji's entry plug leaves Eva-01, even if Shinji was tanged inside it. I would also suspect Shinji was tanged since his synch ratio must've been pretty high at the time.

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Postby SleepS » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:44 pm

This question keeps coming back to me about the final scene. Maybe I can get some insight. If Asuka is killed before Instrumentality begins, how is she able to come back? Does that mean other presumably dead characters in the Eva universe might find themselves on that beach (such as Kaji?)

I also have a question for NemZ and or Mr. Tines about their theory that Shinji is fulfilling Asuka's desire to die. The theory makes a good deal of sense to me, but why would she come back in the first place if only to be killed? Did the MP Evas not already do that for her? (I'm generally curious, not necessarily trying to poke holes in your theory, as I find it very compelling. Feel free to PM me if you'd prefer).

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:33 am

View Original PostSleepS wrote:If Asuka is killed before Instrumentality begins, how is she able to come back?
Misato gets blown to pieces, and she gets tanged later. There's plenty to suggest that the soul hangs around the corporeal remains for some while in the NGEverse. And we know that Asuka is active in instrumentality, wondering about her own possible behaviour when reviewing Misato's week in bed with Kaji.

So, Shinji brings the system down, and she's just stuck executing in the LCL limbo...
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Postby Blue Monday » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:36 am

This question keeps coming back to me about the final scene. Maybe I can get some insight. If Asuka is killed before Instrumentality begins, how is she able to come back? Does that mean other presumably dead characters in the Eva universe might find themselves on that beach (such as Kaji?)

I'd say there's no way to know for sure how exactly Asuka made it back, but realise that she, along with a couple of other dead characters (Misato and Ritsuko, for example) are involved in P3II. Notice that image I posted further up? The movie actually shows that whilst other people are losing their AT fields. So Misato and Ritsuko are already 'tang'd' when it's only just starting for everybody else in the world. It'd be the same for Asuka as well, we just don't see a shot of her reduced to LCL.

Kaji couldn't return as he died a long time before Instrumentality was initiated. Misato would not likely return either as she had her final moment. Asuka, however, was not willing to die - Cue the "I don't want to die!" revelation.

There are a couple threads that explain it a lot better. I was reading them just recently, so try searching for them maybe.


A possibly ridiculous question about tanging; if Shinji is tanged inside his entry plug, and the LCL inside the entry plug is closed off from the rest of the world, can he reform anywhere there's LCL, or only in the entry plug?

Yeah, the movie doesn't show the 'how' but there is the aforementioned deleted scene about the entry plug. I'd say when Unit-01 'entered' GNR, Shinji somehow joined up with the other souls in there maybe - All whilst he was still going over everything and talking with Rei-Lilith.

Third Impact/Instrumentality is a whole lot of weird juju, haha. Pretty much disregard any conventional analysis.

;)

Edit: Ahh, Tines beat me to it anyway, haha.
Last edited by Blue Monday on Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:36 am

View Original PostCeimoa Nan wrote:A possibly ridiculous question about tanging; if Shinji is tanged inside his entry plug, and the LCL inside the entry plug is closed off from the rest of the world, can he reform anywhere there's LCL, or only in the entry plug? A way of rephrasing this question might be, Do the particles of LCL that made up your body when you were tanged have to be the same particles that make you up when you're reformed? Or does your physical body "data" get beamed from one body of LCL to another, like teleportation? (I suspect this is an unanswerable question.)

That might explain why they considered a scene where Shinji's entry plug leaves Eva-01, even if Shinji was tanged inside it. I would also suspect Shinji was tanged since his synch ratio must've been pretty high at the time.


It's not really clear, but it's likely the location of the soul is far more important. How or if souls are in any way mobile remains an unanswered question.

View Original PostSleepS wrote:This question keeps coming back to me about the final scene. Maybe I can get some insight. If Asuka is killed before Instrumentality begins, how is she able to come back? Does that mean other presumably dead characters in the Eva universe might find themselves on that beach (such as Kaji?)


Rei is able to project herself back through time once she merges with Kaworu and Lilith. We see her appearing to Misato and Ritsuko as they die, and she presumably appeared to Asuka as well. She is thus able to pull them into Instrumentality (and P3II) no matter when they died.

This might or might not apply to people who died in the past; Kaji appears in Shinji's Instrumentality sequence, so it presumably applies to him. How far back it really goes is a mystery (though using the "bookend Reis", shown in Ep 01 and EoEoE, as outer limits seems reasonable).

I also have a question for NemZ and or Mr. Tines about their theory that Shinji is fulfilling Asuka's desire to die. The theory makes a good deal of sense to me, but why would she come back in the first place if only to be killed? Did the MP Evas not already do that for her? (I'm generally curious, not necessarily trying to poke holes in your theory, as I find it very compelling. Feel free to PM me if you'd prefer).


Given her past experiences Instrumentality was probably anathema to Asuka. She was not dead there, just alive, exposed to everyone, and bereft of identity. She got away from that as soon as possible because for her that was worse than death. But she still wanted to die, to cease existing, to embrace oblivion, so that's what she was looking for from Shinji (at least according to this theory).
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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