Ep. 25 Script and its Implications (Concurrency)

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Ep. 25 Script and its Implications (Concurrency)

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:10 pm

As the subject indicates this is a concurrency thread. I didn't find an appropriate thread dealing with this material in a quick thread search, but if one's out there please lock/merge as appropriate.

Anyway, ran across this sequence while looking for other things:

Literal Translation Series Episode 25 wrote:Shinji: What's this?

Misato: This is the instrumentality of man project that your father
has been carrying out.

Shinji: Is this?

Misato: It's part of them, I think.

Asuka: The truth is yet unknown to us.

Ritsuko: The thing you perceive is the truth.

Rei: Things within you.

Fuyutsuki: And the things recorded in your memory will be your truth.

Ritsuko: There is a truth that changes through the time.

Shinji: This is the truth.
The result of everything, is this?

Asuka: Out of many truths, one is this.

Misato: That's the result you wished.

Shinji: I wished?

Rei: Yes.
The destruction, the world, where nobody would be saved.


Shinji: NO. It's that nobody saved me.

Ritsuko: Nobody can save you.

Ryouji: This is what you wished.

Asuka: The destruction, the death, the return to nothingness,
All of these did you wish.


Misato: This is the reality.

Shinji: What's the reality?

Rei: Your world.

Makoto: With time, with space, with other people, the world of
your own.

Shigeru: The world where how to accept things and how to perceive things
are absolutely up to you.

Maya: It's your world only given to you at the moment,

-
That's the reality.


The full script is here, among other places. I hadn't noticed this before, but looking at it now this seems like a word-for-word depiction of the events of EoE. This is the world Shinji wished for? The destruction of the world? The return to nothingness? That gels perfectly with a scenario where Shinji is in control of everything, made the godhead by Lilith/Rei, but I can't really see how to make it work with an Instrumentality triggered as planned by Gendo, wherein Shinji is just one of many experiencing the same general thing. The bit about "The world where how to accept things and how to perceive things are absolutely up to you." fits with a more general interpretation of things, but the rest hews pretty closely to a concurrency arrangement IMO.

I know Concurrency threads have been done to death, but has this part of the script been addressed? I'm sure the answer to that is "yes", but finding it is the trick . . .
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:20 pm

Googling [code:1]site:forum.evageeks.org "the result you wished"[/code:1] turns up the following threads

http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/9200/An-Argument-for-Transhumanistic-Instrumentality/
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/7692/At-what-point-does-EoE-segue-into-episode-25/
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/2133/EoTV-EoE-Episodes-Concurrency-Project/
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/8122/An-EoE-Theory-thats-been-confusing-me-Concurrency/
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/2738/EoTV-vs-EoE-again/
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/1833/EoTV-EoE-Concurrency-and-Gainax/
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/1879/Kimochi-Warui/

with the first taking it head on from the first post.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:31 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Googling [code:1]site:forum.evageeks.org "the result you wished"[/code:1] turns up the following threads


Huh. Interesting. It looks as though most of those arguments are using the script from the platinum subs instead of that from the Literal Translation Project. I wouldn't have even given it a second glance if not for the specific wordings used in said project (which are different in many key areas -- see "return to nothingness" vs. "annihilation", for instance).

I guess a better, and more relevant, question I could ask is: has anyone directly compared the wording in EoE and ep. 25 scripts so see if the common wording at various points is relevant? A comparison of the Japanese scripts would be especially helpful. Yes, Symbv, I'm looking at you! :lol:

Also, thanks for the reminder on google searches; I forgot I had more options (and more powerful ones) than simply doing thread searches.

Edit: and it appears that this thread is directly on point thanks to a link from Ornette in the second post. That link, which is here, makes the same exact argument I made above, so it looks like this is redundant/old ground/whatever.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:42 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:has anyone directly compared the wording in EoE and ep. 25 scripts so see if the common wording at various points is relevant?
There are some interesting overlaps

episode 25 wrote:Shinji: Don't leave me.
Misato: Don't desert me.
Asuka: Don't kill me.

Shinji: What's this?
Misato: This is the Instrumentality of Man project that your father has been working on.


episode 26' wrote:Shinji (weakly - getting to his feet):
Help me... Somebody... Somebody help me...
Help me... Help me... Me... Help ME!!

(throws the table aside)

Don't leave me alone! Don't abandon me! Don't kill me!

(picks up a chair and throws it at Asuka's feet)

Asuka (coldly):
... No...


http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/1717/What-was-your-first-thought-after-this-scene/
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/8122/An-EoE-Theory-thats-been-confusing-me-Concurrency/
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Postby Fireand'chutes77 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:36 pm

episode 25 wrote:
Stage!Shinji: Don't leave me.
Stage!Misato: Don't desert me.
Stage!Asuka: Don't kill me.
*beat*
Shinji: What is this?


When I first saw episode 25, Spike's delivery of that last line made me laugh aloud. It seemed a more-than-subtle commiseration with the viewing public. :)
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Postby symbv » Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:13 pm

I still do not buy the notion that TV NGE is necessarily concurrent with EoE. What I understand from that part of scripts is that after ep.24 the mental state of Shinji is similar in NGE and EoE, so the wish for everything to just be gone (the people, the world etc) is the same for both Shinji's. So the words as uttered could be similar. We never know what exactly happens in various versions of Instrumentality -- in the NGE version, it could well be that in the "consultation session", Shinji was guided first to speak out about things deep in his mind (hence all those things that really happened in real life in EoE) and then guided towards reconciling with his dark self and "accept" the instrumentality.

I have always been in the camp of "weak concurrency", meaning one does not need the movies to understand TV NGE or interpret how it ends. If it points to a conclusion at variance with EoE, it might well have been the original intention. But when EoE was made, the story, dialogues, events could have been constructed to retrofit with NGE, so with EoE the events in NGE could now be interpreted as (somehow) concurrent with EoE.

Bagheera wrote:has anyone directly compared the wording in EoE and ep. 25 scripts so see if the common wording at various points is relevant? A comparison of the Japanese scripts would be especially helpful. Yes, Symbv, I'm looking at you!


Hmmm.. I guess even for someone who does not know Japanese by comparing the "runes" visually one can still find common wording? :wink: If someone can provide the links to the Japanese text in NGE ending and EoE, I could give a quick look....
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:51 pm

View Original Postsymbv wrote:Hmmm.. I guess even for someone who does not know Japanese by comparing the "runes" visually one can still find common wording? If someone can provide the links to the Japanese text in NGE ending and EoE, I could give a quick look....


I am not sure if the final versions are archived anywhere. You can see drafts of the movie episodes here. The literal translation project script I linked above seems to be the best we have available for 25.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby symbv » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:59 pm

The film comics of NGE should have all the dialogues but I'll have to dig them out... and there isn't that much driving force behind me these days to check Eva stuff :p To be honest, I won't be surprised some dialogues are reused in EoE, as some of the themes are same and then there was the retrofit idea.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:04 pm

View Original Postsymbv wrote:The film comics of NGE should have all the dialogues but I'll have to dig them out... and there isn't that much driving force behind me these days to check Eva stuff :p To be honest, I won't be surprised some dialogues are reused in EoE, as some of the themes are same and then there was the retrofit idea.


I'm thinking less about reused dialogue and more about common themes -- calling Shinji's world a "return to nothing", for instance, or emphasizing that it was the world he wished for, etc. We already know about the big stuff and the direct parallels, but it's little stuff like that that has me going "hey, wait a minute . . . "
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby symbv » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:11 pm

Hmm.. but I think it is only natural that those common themes (wishing the world and the people would just go away - return to nothing) are shared between NGE and EoE? They would look similar even if the dialogues were not identical I would have thought.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:36 pm

View Original Postsymbv wrote:Hmm.. but I think it is only natural that those common themes (wishing the world and the people would just go away - return to nothing) are shared between NGE and EoE? They would look similar even if the dialogues were not identical I would have thought.


Yes, that's true. But what I'm getting at is that there should be differences if Instrumentality is played out differently in the different endings. If Gendo started it in EoTV it seems odd that the chorus would tell Shinji that the return to nothing et al. was his wish, the result of his own desires. But even if that's so, they could also be referring to the world he created for himself within the larger framework of Gendo's scenario, which might be more open-ended. A lot of this turns on the exact wording of the original scripts; I wanna know if ep 25 indicates the actual world ended at Shinji's behest, or if it instead suggests that he created his own world a la the scenario in 26.

I am basically wondering if the original scripts settle things in ways that are lost in the English translation. I suspect it's not that easy, since there seems to be some confusion on the matter even among Japanese audiences, but it'd be nice to know for certain.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby symbv » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:42 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Yes, that's true. But what I'm getting at is that there should be differences if Instrumentality is played out differently in the different endings.

Though if it is following my interpretation it is entirely possible Shinji would be guided towards expressing his wish and then being guided away from it, leading to the "omedetou" ending, which means it was indeed played out differently from EoE...
View Original PostBagheera wrote:If Gendo started it in EoTV it seems odd that the chorus would tell Shinji that the return to nothing et al. was his wish, the result of his own desires. But even if that's so, they could also be referring to the world he created for himself within the larger framework of Gendo's scenario, which might be more open-ended. A lot of this turns on the exact wording of the original scripts; I wanna know if ep 25 indicates the actual world ended at Shinji's behest, or if it instead suggests that he created his own world a la the scenario in 26.

In fact I am not even sure it is Gendou's instrumentality; to me it looks as likely that it is Seele's instrumentality - everyone accepts himself/herself and thus accept the "happy" destiny instrumentality prepares for him/her.
View Original PostBagheera wrote:I am basically wondering if the original scripts settle things in ways that are lost in the English translation. I suspect it's not that easy, since there seems to be some confusion on the matter even among Japanese audiences, but it'd be nice to know for certain.

Now I see what you mean. Yeah, it is not easy to tell if dialogues in EoTV necessarily point to the exact details of how instrumentality plays out and how it compares with EoE, even in the original Japanese...
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Postby Fireand'chutes77 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:49 am

IMHO, I'm in favor of the concurrency theory (due to strong similarities in imagery and original intent), and became much more so once I read Shadowjack's EXTENSIVE review/blend of EoE and EoTV a few months ago*.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?559326-IWIW-Evangelion-Part-4-The-Ends-of-Evangelion/page37

Bagheera/sankarah: It's interesting to watch you and Shadowjack go back and forth.

*HOLY CRAP finally chasing down that thing this evening burned though a good three hours of my life. Does anyone have all of Shadowjack's reviews collected in a file somewhere?
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:24 am

View Original PostFireand'chutes77 wrote:Bagheera/sankarah: It's interesting to watch you and Shadowjack go back and forth.


Those were some good discussions.

*HOLY CRAP finally chasing down that thing this evening burned though a good three hours of my life. Does anyone have all of Shadowjack's reviews collected in a file somewhere?


Certainly.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby AshPhoenix » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:49 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Certainly.

Thanks a lot. Those were quite interesting to read. :thumbsup:
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Postby symbv » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:30 pm

By the way, who is this Shadowjack guy? From the link above he seems to write a lot of commentaries and musings on Eva, and he paid particular attention to Re-take for example. He does not seem to be a member of EGF apparently? Does he have a blog site of his won? That link seems to be more an archive site....
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:33 pm

View Original Postsymbv wrote:By the way, who is this Shadowjack guy? From the link above he seems to write a lot of commentaries and musings on Eva, and he paid particular attention to Re-take for example. He does not seem to be a member of EGF apparently? Does he have a blog site of his won? That link seems to be more an archive site....


No, it's rpg.net, the largest rpg forum on the net (and by "rpg" I mean pen and paper, not computer). Shadowjack is just a member and a fellow Eva fan, albeit one who keeps Evageeks at arms' length because . . . well, we're kinda obsessive, and he's not. :)

He's a cool guy. He just has lots of other interests apart from Eva, and isn't willing to go that hardcore into any of them.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby symbv » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:45 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Shadowjack is just a member and a fellow Eva fan, albeit one who keeps Evageeks at arms' length because . . . well, we're kinda obsessive, and he's not. :)

He may be keeping Evageeks at arms' length, but he has written more about what he saw from and about Eva than many in this forum, to be honest :) -- particularly on Re-Take if I may add....

View Original PostBagheera wrote:He just has lots of other interests apart from Eva, and isn't willing to go that hardcore into any of them.

I also have lots of other interests besides Eva, but at least I was once really hardcore... That said, reading all he wrote about Eva it is a bit hard to imagine he was not once hardcore too..
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:04 pm

View Original Postsymbv wrote:I also have lots of other interests besides Eva, but at least I was once really hardcore... That said, reading all he wrote about Eva it is a bit hard to imagine he was not once hardcore too..


Well, he's just like that. He kinda does his own thing, honestly; he's said a lot more about Sailor Moon than Eva, for instance, and I'm honestly surprised he hasn't dipped more into Utena. Past that I know he's visited our site for research purposes, but as far as being a fan goes . . . yeah, not so much.

I guess the simplest way to put it is that he has the exposure needed to be a die-hard EvaGeek, but chooses not to be one for his own reasons. As for the why of it, you'd have to ask him.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Fireand'chutes77 » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:01 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:No, it's rpg.net, the largest rpg forum on the net (and by "rpg" I mean pen and paper, not computer).

Nor the anti-tank weapon. :) That's my first go-to for "rpg," since I'm not a gamer.

He just has lots of other interests apart from Eva, and isn't willing to go that hardcore into any of them.

Jesus... If all that is not the summation of hardcore, I would stand in awe of what SJ thinks is.

Does he write any fanfiction, as well? I really hope he does, because the way he wrote his reviews and brought the episodes to life was amazing.
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