[Tangent] School Life, oversaturating genre, Haruhi

[symbv]

You're not going to win against this level of self-serving, hypocritical bias.

Talking about yourself? Wanting something from an industry that has never been what you want to cater to your taste is just as self-serving, if not more.

Everyone has his own bias, but the question is when you are aware that the issue is more about yourself than everything else and you can at peace with yourself, instead of blaming everything else except yourself. Now that is hypocritical.

[Tankred]

This thread is lovely.

[chee]

Talking about yourself? Wanting something from an industry that has never been what you want to cater to your taste is just as self-serving, if not more.

Everyone has his own bias, but the question is when you are aware that the issue is more about yourself than everything else and you can at peace with yourself, instead of blaming everything else except yourself. Now that is hypocritical.

And in 2 sentences you prove my point completely. You know nothing about me, but somehow you feel entitled to judge my viewpoint - or what you imagine it to be, rather.

[symbv]

And in 2 sentences you prove my point completely. You barely know anything about my opinions and tastes, and you come in making baseless, self-serving accusations at the drop of a hat. You truly are an anthropological marvel.

Actually "You come in making baseless, self-serving accusations at the drop of a hat" is what you just did. You have been here long enough to display your taste and bias so it is not as if nothing is known about you. I never know that custom title in EGF is this insightful. I have to applaud the mods for a marvelous service for this forum.

[chee]

Funny you should mention that, my title was suggested by me as a self deprecating joke. Also, again, there you go again. This isn't about taste, this is about the integrity of your arguments, which appear to me to be weak. For example, your total misinterpretation of what ad hominem means, which you then promptly used to try to conveniently invalidate arguments against things you like.

[symbv]

Funny you should mention that, my title was suggested by me as a self depreciating joke.

Depreciating? Or Deprecating?
At least you know something about yourself, and it is nice of you to warn everyone about yourself.

Also, again, there you go again. This isn't about taste, this is about the integrity of your arguments, which appears to me to be a weak one. For example, your total misinterpretation of what ad hominem means, which you then promptly used to try to conveniently invalidate arguments against things you like.

Yeah, you can say that you only want to say my points are "hypocritical" and "self-serving" but not the person. (but how about calling "You barely know anything about my opinions and tastes, and you come in making baseless, self-serving accusations at the drop of a hat. You truly are an anthropological marvel.") But your sweeping call with one short sentence just shows that you are not above making denigration without substance.

If you have any substantial point to make, then state them and back up with facts, otherwise doing this kind of blank attacks or arms-raising shouting hate words only makes your self-deprecating/depreciating joke more and more a reality.

Or you can spam this thread more with your curt and mean soundbites and hope to get this thread locked so that you no longer have to see more of the talks that you don't want to listen.

[chee]

Depreciating? Or Deprecating?
At least you know something about yourself, and it is nice of you to warn everyone about yourself.

Yeah, you can say that you only want to say my points are "hypocritical" and "self-serving" but not the person. But your sweeping call with one short sentence just shows that you are not above making denigration without substance.

And yet this denigration was directed entirely towards your stance and attitude regarding this specific issue. if you want to interpret it as something personal, that's your business. Also, considering the attitude you've taken, as illustrated with your above quip, you're not exactly above it either.

If you have any substantial point to make, then state them and back up with facts, otherwise doing this kind of blank attacks or arms-raising shouting hate words only makes your self-deprecating/depreciating joke more and more a reality.

Well, the fact that I used your replies to my posts and something that did, in fact, occur in your argument with Alaska Slim, is at the very least a start.

Or you can spam this thread more with your curt and mean soundbites and hope to get this thread locked so that you do not need to see more of the talks that you don't want to listen.

I don't do well with writing long posts anyway, so Ill make it brief: your argument is going nowhere, neither of you seem to be making headway with the other. At the risk of being accused of backseat modding, I'd say that the two of you should probably agree to disagree, unless you want to rile each other up into getting in trouble with the mods. And I can't imagine many people find this thread enlightening or entertaining. From an outside standpoint, this appears to be a pissing contest between two fanboys, the type that happens way too often, to the detriment of actual discussion. And with that, I wash my hands of this.

[symbv]

And yet this denigration was directed entirely towards your stance regarding this specific issue. if you want to interpret it as something personal, that's your business.

Hmmm, I guess calling somebody "an anthropological marvel" is not personal?
And making accusation without explanation (like you did in your first post) only serves to jar and irritate to the detriment of actual discussion (copying your words here).

Also, considering the attitude you've taken, as illustrated with your above quip, you're not exactly above it either.

True, I guess negative emotion can easily form a feedback loop of reciprocation, right?

I don't do well with writing long posts anyway, so Ill make it brief: your argument is going nowhere, neither of you seem to be making headway with the other. At the risk of being accused of backseat modding, I'd say that the two of you should probably agree to disagree, unless you want to rile each other up into getting in trouble with the mods. And I can't imagine many people find this thread enlightening or entertaining. From an outside standpoint, this appears to be a pissing contest between two fanboys, the type that happens way too often, to the detriment of actual discussion. And with that, I wash my hands of this.

I wish I read this as your first post in this thread, instead of the one you posted earlier.

I am fine with disagreement about how much moe level is too much for proper enjoyment. But I cannot agree with mixing moe with slice-of-life genre, or that slice-of-life genre is necessarily shallow and superficial to be unbelievable or unworthy, and that slice-of-life controls the current anime industry and is killing it. I have given evidence about why this is not the case, and I do not believe it is a matter of preference (unlike any discussion of whether moe element is desirable or if there are too many elements adopted in anime these days).

[gatotsu911]

It's not like anime has ever had much "substance" as a genre to begin with. It's always been vapid, whether it was dominated by super robots and overlong toy commercials, failed attempts at using ultraviolence to cater to a Western demographic, or adorable tsunderes with zettai ryouiki making the same stale jokes in more abundance. Whatever "new era of vapidity" you're referring to, the only thing I've noticed is that the methods of exploring the "vapidity" in question have become more diversified.

I won't deny any of this, but I guess the core of my argument is that the current "vapidity" (fetishization, pandering and extreme escapism) is worse in terms of quality and also far more insidious than the "vapidity" of the past (run-of-the-mill cornball stupidity, oftentimes entertaining cornball stupidity).

[symbv]

Reminds me of people who said gratuitous sex in movies is worse in quality and far more insidious than gratuitous violence in movies.

[gatotsu911]

I don't do well with writing long posts anyway, so Ill make it brief: your argument is going nowhere, neither of you seem to be making headway with the other. At the risk of being accused of backseat modding, I'd say that the two of you should probably agree to disagree, unless you want to rile each other up into getting in trouble with the mods. And I can't imagine many people find this thread enlightening or entertaining. From an outside standpoint, this appears to be a pissing contest between two fanboys, the type that happens way too often, to the detriment of actual discussion. And with that, I wash my hands of this.

Honestly, I've been enjoying posting on this thread, responding to some of the counter-arguments raised and reading Alaska's posts. I've found it interesting. I just wish the main proponent on the pro-moe side was offering some more substantial and less circular arguments.

[symbv]

I just wish the main proponent on the pro-moe side was offering some more substantial and less circular arguments.

Actually the main arguments I have offered is mainly about slice-of-life. I have not argued that much on moe side, so not sure what "circular argument" you are talking about. That "moe" increases customer participation and creativity?

[Alaska Slim]

But you also want to call it superficial and shallow. This shows you want to say that your taste is better than others.
Your choice of words clearly show that you are placing yourself above others.

While poking fun and listing the weaknesses and shortcomings of my own tastes simultaneously? That logic doesn't follow.

I'm not trying to condemn your tastes, I'm trying to get you to do what I just did with my own. Symbv, there is a difference between condemnation and criticism. Criticism can condemn, but it can also simply be reasonable. Nothing is made perfect, and even at a meta level like genre, there are common areas where shows of said genre can come up short. But maybe the terms I've been using thus far in trying to convince you of this have still been too strong, alright, let me try to sanitize it:

1. The characters tend have a certain look, and this is a strong if not the chief attribute that distinguishes them to the viewer.

2. The humor within the show is tailored to the intended audience.

3. The characters portray a very certain range of positive emotion, ones that the intended audience most enjoys.


Now what are the inherent weaknesses of these three traits?

1. The character's looks can be a reflection of only a certain group's sensibilities, thus only they like it.

2. The humor requires prior involvement or knowledge, which is too much of an investment for anyone who just wishes to enjoy it casually.

3. Without a broader range of emotions to latch onto, the characters portrayals are do or die, either you like the one bit they have, or there's nothing there for you.


Now, I'm not saying every show of the genre is like this, sort of like how not every Mecha show bases itself on a pseudo-science that a C-average High School Freshman could poke holes in (its just most of them). Equally, even if all three weaknesses do apply, I'm not saying that the show then must be terrible. However, that does have larger implications for the show on the outside of it, especially if its format is commonplace.

Those implications are the other thing I'm trying to get at here, such as what happens when the focal point of the industry is low on content.

Yamamoto was right in saying that the industry has shrunk, but that does not mean you are being correct in your analysis of the cause.

I apologize, I'm not saying this genre is the cause, but it is fair to say that it is sizably contributing to the situation, and this is something you yourself have verified.

You stated that less than half of the Slice of life genre is breaking even per season, you know what that tells me? The industry is experiencing Market Oversaturation, there's too many of these shows than the fans can/willing to support, but the studios are putting proportionally more resources into this genre than they should each year, in the hopes that they'll get a break like K-On! or at least pull in fan appeal and etch by.

The other genres still contribute to sales, given, but do you know of a non slice-of-life show in recent memory that has experienced this level of exposure or success?

Heck, look at this chart. You see the numbers for Blu-Ray in 2010? K-On! accounted for nearly half of that, and close to 10% of those media sales overall. I can't really blame studios for wanting a piece of that themselves, but it's evidently coming at a cost. Slice of Life Anime has for several years made up about 1/3 of all anime each season, though the number of titles overall has gone down from 2-3 years ago, the number of Slice of Life titles has really stayed the same.

And again, as you said, over half of them this year failed. I'd also like to point out how on that same chart, sales between 2010 and 2011 dropped. Maybe they'll change their approach next year (doubtful), but as it stands, I'd have to call it a misallocation of resources. Not in that they make these shows at all, but are simply making too much.

And if the fans are not a monolithic whole, then different anime catering to their varied taste is just natural.

Except this "variation" tends to be tailored to the late-night anime crowd, something the Mainstream largely doesn't pick up on, and that's a problem. It means the industry is shooting short of sustainability.

There's admittedly another concern, this coming from the production side rather than the consumers. Like that article states, the number of animators in Japan is going down, due to rising costs, better incentives in other entertainment industries (like Video Games), and really, just a all-around lack of interest. This means the number of creators will also go down and variety with them...

I'm actually trying to find a plot for when all anime will finally feature that little sticker that says "Made in China".

Yamamoto and Azuma have indeed lost credibility among anime fans and the industry. It is not ad hominem.

Yes it is, you're specifically attacking their credibility, them, nothing that directly addresses the evidence they bring to the table.

Though I'd like to take your word for it, it's simply not enough, you need cite people or sources that counter them. You asked me for quotes, now I'm turning that back at you. It's a reasonable request (at least I thought so), so please, just humor me.

Sazae-san working by having jokes on life is precisely the point.

What made Sazae-san work and kept it popular was precisely Mr. Yammoto's point, focus on accessibility for everyone, not just one dedicated fan base. It's a text book case of how he stated shows in the Genre should be made.

I'm not saying shows of the genre can't be successful, clearly, that's not the case, I'm saying the current niche-focused approach for making most of them, coupled with how many of them there are, is really unsustainable, a trend the industry throws the money behind anyway, because a few like Lucky Star, Ichigo Mashimaro, and Minami-ke made it seem worthwhile or at least with marginal profitability.

If you find something not to your taste, just say that it is not for you,

I've watched and liked several of the genre, Haruhi, Negima!, Toradora!, School Rumble, etc. Don't mistake my willingness to line out inherit shatterpoints or weaknesses of the genre and concerns of overproduction as meaning I just avoid it.

Further, your words here are little different than this:

"Well, you just have a different opinion".

I try to be transparent about my tastes, to show where my blindspots are. I take note of objective weaknesses of the genres I like, and say "Yeah, my viewpoint just allows me to tolerate a little more of that, and so I feel the good things outweigh it."

I admit to the flaws, to the common weaknesses. When one doesn't do that, they're probably still transparent, but instead its by omission. That comes off as another type of arrogance, as almost a narcissism by proxy. Nothing is above criticism, and you shouldn't be so thin skinned as to be unable to acknowledge what the common criticisms are for what you like, at the very least.

[symbv]

I know there is a difference between condemnation and criticism, but what you said in earlier post was more like condemnation than criticism, at least a criticism that seemed to be based more on your personal taste than an understanding that people can have different taste and feel differently to the same thing they saw. At least so far.

But maybe the terms I've been using thus far in trying to convince you of this have still been too strong, alright, let me try to sanitize it:

1. The characters tend have a certain look, and this is a strong if not the chief attribute that distinguishes them to the viewer.

2. The humor within the show is tailored to the intended audience.

3. The characters portray a very certain range of positive emotion, ones that the intended audience most enjoys.


Now what are the inherent weaknesses of these three traits?

1. The character's looks can be a reflection of only a certain group's sensibilities, thus only they like it.

2. The humor requires prior involvement or knowledge, which is too much of an investment for anyone who just wishes to enjoy it casually.

3. Without a broader range of emotions to latch onto, the characters portrayals are do or die, either you like the one bit they have, or there's nothing there for you.

I think we are on a more common ground here. Though I would want to point out that your points are more a difference of focus, frequency and style. In the older days, characters also had certain looks for example, and humor was of course intended to the intended audience. What I will agree is that there are more in-depth exploration of certain attributes by fans, which is what moe reactions is about, and they could be more appreciated by their fans than other viewers. What I wanted to point out is that in Japan viewers will just shrug off those attributes or humor if they do not feel they are for them and take it in strides (so the weakness #1 and #3 are not really a problem for many viewers in Japan), so from both viewer's point of view and studio's point of view, it does not hurt to add some of those attributes. This is why moe is so common these days (for example, even a gritty show like Fate/Zero is sure to include its moe elements). And if a studio overdoes the moe attributes and humor or misplaces them, the anime can fail. Nichijou did all the moe attributes right, including many supposedly sure-fire moe elements, and LOTS of moe and self-referenced humor, with amazing level of animation and sakuga to boot, but the anime failed (just barely made the breakeven line). Weakness #2 can be the case but that is more the problem for anime adapted from other media.

I apologize, I'm not saying this genre is the cause, but it is fair to say that it is sizably contributing to the situation, and this is something you yourself have verified.

You stated that less than half of the Slice of life genre is breaking even per season, you know what that tells me? The industry is experiencing Market Oversaturation, there's too much of these shows than the fans can/willing support, but the studios are putting proportionally more resources into this genre than they should each year, in the hopes that they'll get a break like K-On! or at least pull in fan appeal and etch by.

You know, slice of life as we know now started from at least the Azumanga Daioh days, which is almost a decade before K-On. You talked as if studios wanted to do the same only because of K-On big sale. I would rather say that the trend has been long slowly been on the ascendent, and the reason of more slice-of-life shows, even before K-On, is that there seems to have been a shift in consumer taste and studios moved to capture this.

Also, you need to understand that when I mentioned half of the SoL show failed I mentioned SoL as broadly defined. So all those harems, romance comedy, light novel adaptation with strong SF or fantasy theme, slapstick comedy all got thrown together. And many of these anime were not made with a view to capture the same audience that K-On targeted. If the studios wanted to just take a share of the K-On pie, then those many SoL anime came after it should be about all-girl high school life, but in fact they are a small minority of the SoL shows made after K-On. So your theory that because studios wanted to copy K-On and thus made SoL does not really stand. On the other hand, I definitely see a lot of those SoL shows came from game, light novel and manga adaptation, so the reason of why there are so many SoL shows are more due to too many works of other media being adapted into anime. As for whether there is Market Oversaturation, if you look at it in terms of profit margin, I guess it can be argued to be the case. But let's look at this from another angle. What is worrying is that even with animators in Japan making only a pittance, anime is still not making a lot of money on its own. If the labor cost is an issue, one would think fewer number of studio (do we want to see this happen?) should be able to raise the profit margin but anime being an entertainment industry, fewer producers do not always lead to higher sales per studio (people may just switch to other form of entertainment). The current approach now adopted by studios is to collaborate with other media like light novel and games -- which results in the "exclusive humor" "self-reference" issue we talked before, and occasional experimentation. It is hard to tell if this is the best solution, but I see anime industry is very much on the passive side as the resource at disposal like money is not really on their favor, compared to other media like game, light novel and manga. Such practice seems to be what is causing the Market Oversaturation that you talked about.

Except this "variation" tends to be tailored to the late-night anime crowd, something the Mainstream largely doesn't pick up on, and that's a problem. It means the industry is shooting short of sustainability.

There's admittedly another concern, this coming from the production side rather than the consumers. Like that article states, the number of animators in Japan is going down, due to rising costs, better incentives in other entertainment industries (like Video Games), and really, just a all-around lack of interest. This means the number of creators will also go down and variety with them...

I think the lack of interest reflects the lack of a good career and financially secure prospect that is affecting intake of animators. Occasionally such reports came up in news reports in Japan (the one you quoted happens to be one that came out in English), and pay and work environment always come up as the main concern and worry by current workers in the industry. This goes back to my point earlier in this post -- how to help the industry and its people? Perhaps reducing the number of shows that are likely to fail would be an approach, but, besides the question of how to predict the success of an anime (we know just by making slice-of-life it is no guarantee of success) even if this should happen that does not mean that there will be less slice-of-life or less moe which you seem to want.

And I see the "variation" that I mentioned more a result of the anime being assigned to a midnight time slot. For the studio, the natural thinking would be: we only have midnight time slot -> the viewer will mostly those who will watch the stuff at midnight -> let's do something that those people will watch (tailoring to those people). What is pleasantly surprising is how many of the anime made in midnight time slots do not go all the way to the taste of a (mainly male) teenager or young adult demography, otherwise anime like Anohana, Ika-musume or Kimi ni Todoke may never get made.

> I'm actually trying to find a plot for when all anime will finally feature that little sticker that says "Made in China".
If you check the end credit sequence carefully you will find almost all anime have some outsourcing, and it goes to Korea as often as to China, and can go even to Vietnam or Philippines too.

Yes it is, you're specifically attacking their credibility, them, nothing that directly addresses the evidence they bring to the table.

Though I'd like to take your word for it, it's simply not enough, you need cite people or sources that counter them. You asked me for quotes, now I'm turning that back at you. It's a reasonable request (at least I thought so), so please, just humor me.

I am not sure what you want. I told you that fans in Japan heard those claims by Yamamoto about "saving anime" and then saw Fractale becoming one of the lowest selling anime of the year and found them hard to take them seriously. My point being that they could keep writing articles or making claims here and there, but it is hard to see what influence they could have. What quotes do you expect for that? Now that Yamamoto even said that he could not come up with anything better than Fractale ( http://otanew.jp/archives/5373724.html ) it is easy to see how viewers would not like to take his words seriously (they expect most likely if he can find another new anime to work on, he will surely said it will be the best he does).

As for "the evidence they bring to the table" I have addressed the relevant part already - like Yamamoto was focusing on the quantity of adaptation work in anime in that interview, as well as the specific observations of the moe phenomenon by Azuma. I did not say those observations they made are not credible, or they themselves are not to be believed (though don't forget they are just theories, and the treatise you mentioned earlier listed theories from others too); but if you say Yamamoto has a credible and workable solution, I am not sure how feasible it is after Yamamoto's (as well as Azuma's) blunder and debacle .

What made Sazae-san work and kept it popular was precisely Mr. Yammoto's point, focus on accessibility for everyone, not just one dedicated fan base. It's a text book case of how he stated shows in the Genre should be made.

I'm not saying shows of the genre can't be successful, clearly, that's not the case, I'm saying the current niche-focused approach for making most of them, coupled with how many of them there are, is really unsustainable, a trend the industry throws the money behind anyway, because a few like Lucky Star, Ichigo Mashimaro, and Minami-ke made it seem worthwhile or at least with marginal profitability.

Accessibility is a fluid concept. Many deplore the wild popularity of K-On but K-On is successful is precisely because it succeeds in the "accessibility" test (and the fact that it made the mark even though it was put in a midnight anime time slot made it even more amazing). The current talk is whether K-On movie, given the ease of physical access because of its movie format (instead of midnight time slot), will become a family franchise, with junior high school girls or kids going to watch it together with their parents. As I said before, for an anime to succeed like K-On did, it takes far far far more than just the otaku core group.

I can see your point of worry about too many "me-too" anime going after the success of K-On (and to lesser extent Lucky Star and Minami-ke) and it is my worry too. However, if following success of K-On means making anime as accessible as K-On, to the extent of appealing to a wide range of demography or sectors, then it may not be such a bad thing.

I can see issue where many anime are adapted from games or light novels that are very focused on niche sector like young male adult/teen -- which seem to be your concern as well. If they look similar, then it is because the original works look similar. In this case, the question is more a wider issue of the subculture arena that includes light novels, games and manga. Instead of asking "why the anime studios make anime that look similar?", the question should be "why so many light novels, games, manga look similar?".

I try to be transparent about my tastes, to show where my blindspots are. I take note of objective weaknesses of the genres I like, and say "Yeah, my viewpoint just allows me to tolerate a little more of that, and so I feel the good things outweigh it."

I admit to the flaws, to the common weaknesses. When one doesn't do that, they're probably still transparent, but instead its by omission. That comes off as another type of arrogance, as almost a narcissism by proxy. Nothing is above criticism, and you should be able to acknowledge what the common ones are for what you like, at the very least.

I appreciate your transparency and directness, but particularly how much you want to engage in discussion -- I think I was a bit distraught by some of the claims you made earlier that seemed not to base on actual facts, and the way you phrase your preference, which creates an impression (at least to me) that you are biased against slice-of-life genre and misunderstanding why it was loved by so many in Japan. My point is that we can have different taste but we should not let that influence our reasoning and judgement, or assume it is better than others' taste.

I agree that nothing is above criticism, but I would like criticism that is based on a correct understanding of the cause and effect. I share more than a few of the worries you mentioned here. I just have a different view of the cause and the analysis of what happened.

And I know you are not avoiding shows like Haruhi, Negima!, Toradora!, School Rumble, etc but I question if you watched it just to reinforce your negative views instead of trying to enjoy them which is what fans in Japan do.

[Alaska Slim]

I agree that nothing is above criticism, but I would like criticism that is based on a correct understanding of the cause and effect. I share more than a few of the worries you mentioned here. I just have a different view of the cause and the analysis of what happened.

Than I think we can let the (main) discussion end here. In a word, what I was looking from you was empathy, an understanding that I had concerns about the genre not just born out of dislike or resentment, but from reasonable (if at times a bit over generalized) standpoints, and I feel you've now shown that.

I know it isn't easy for you, SoL is frequently the genre that gets crapped on, especially in this neck of the woods, so I want to thank you for stepping out of the shell.


Just two things:

1. Though I haven't looked that far into it, I'd be surprised to hear that K-On! wasn't made with a broader audience in mind, given the budget and the attention paid to the music and animation. The success it ended up enjoying was of course likely far outside their projections, but it doesn't appear to me look or act like something that was meant just for the late night crowd.

2. I don't think the trend towards slice of life started with K-On!, I think it began gradually with Daioh, sped up once Haruhi and Lucky Star came onto the scene, and perhaps (I guess we'll see) hit its zenith with K-On! K-On! is pretty much the runaway dream in the industry now, but in every other respect, I think Lucky Star is probably the ideal, a good amount of success on a modest budget.

[symbv]

Than I think we can let the (main) discussion end here. In a word, what I was looking from you was empathy, understanding that I had concerns about the genre not just born out of dislike or resentment, but from reasonable (if at times a bit over generalized) standpoints, and I feel you've now shown that.

Accept my apology if you have been aiming for empathy and understanding of your concerns because I honestly did not know. I am absolutely with you on those regards. I don't know whether we could reach an understanding in a better way (and admittedly what we went through is quite a long-winded way), but I am glad we have reached a common point.

1. Though I haven't looked that far into it, I'd be surprised to hear that K-On! wasn't made with a broader audience in mind, given the budget and the attention paid to the music and animation. The success it ended up enjoying was of course likely far outside their projections, but it doesn't appear to me look or act like something that was meant just for the late night crowd.

K-On was aired only in midnight time slot (2am Thu for season 1 and 1:30am Tue for season 2 in Tokyo Region, to be precise). It was never broadcast in any other time slots. Many in 2ch have been scratching their heads (even now) regarding how so many teenagers and girls got to know and watch the anime (rental could be an answer). And it is a testament to how well KyoAni managed their resource and staff to come up with such a high level of animation in K-On. The sales of the original 4-koma could not really explain the awareness because the sales of the manga actually was quite modest but it jumped dozens of times fold after the anime.

[Alaska Slim]

Accept my apology if you have been aiming for empathy and understanding of your concerns because I honestly did not know. I am absolutely with you on those regards. I don't know whether we could reach an understanding in a better way (and admittedly what we went through is quite a long-winded way), but I am glad we have reached a common point.

Apology accepted. B)

As to being "long-winded" bah, I think we both just enjoy talking like that.

I admittedly got frustrated once or twice, and unfairly took it out on you, but at the same time I held confidence that we could reach an understanding. More than anything, I just didn't want burned bridges to form between us, or even just building the bridge part way and saying "meh, good enough", because I thought we could do better. There's still a gap there, but we can fill that in with time.

But whatever parallels might be drawn from this, I still maintain that Gundam 00 -A wakening of the Trailblazer was a terrible movie. This didn't involve trucks...

[symbv]

Just a really minor addition about midnight anime. Nowadays even for adaptation of shounen titles like Blue Exorcist, Nurarihyon no Mago and Ika-Musume got slotted into midnight time slots -- and really I am quite worried about this because it feeds into a negative spiral because even for "more accessible works" (shounen manga) now gets only limited exposure and number of viewers (with its restricted demography). I think it has something to do with how the anime industry works and its business model, and that includes distribution, sponsorship and merchandising -- all of them not controlled by the studios themselves.

More than anything, I just didn't want burned bridges to form between us, or even just building the bridge part way and saying "meh, good enough", because I thought we could do better. There's still a gap there, but we can fill that in with time.

And indeed we did better, and I am really very happy about it. This can be such a rare thing when it comes to passionately held view like slice-of-life and moe (which I still find it quite difficult to understand why such a stronge view in held so many this side of the world) For gap, I think much is "agree to disagree, and we mutually respect each other's view" and surely we can fill some of that in with time.

So may I propose

[Alaska Slim]

^ Hear hear.

[Fazmotron]

Ooooookay, I have no idea what just happened but the heated argument crap appears to be over, so lets keep it that way. And I guess TOPIC BITCHES, if there is a topic...