NGE as a metaphor for Revelation

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NGE as a metaphor for Revelation

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Postby Petrucio » Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:57 pm

Hello, I would like to share some serious fringe theories on the symbolism of the series. The ones I present here are some of the most central ones I have for interpreting the story. They might be wrong, but discussion is always a pleasure. I'm just going to state them, and you may argue back. I have supporting arguments for them.

They are not necessarily following any intended logical order, and can be discussed separately, but I believe that each one of them is coherent with all the others.

Here we go:
1st theory: Ayanamy Rei represents Israel.
2nd theory: Adam and the EVAs represent the nephilim.
3rd theory: Lilith is the Church (Christians).
4th theory: Nerv is the government of the Antichrist.
5th theory: Seele represents satanists.
6th theory: the series takes place during the tribulation.
7th theory: Shinji was groomed from birth to become the Antichrist.
8th theory: Kaworu is Lucifer.
9th theory: The angels want to rapture Lilith (see the 3rd theory).
10th theory: Kaworu wants to destroy the humans and replace them, and uses Seele for this.
11th theory: God wants to stop the plan on the 10th theory, but can only do it once Lilith has been raptured.
12th theory: Instrumentality is purgatory.
13th theory: the EoTV represents Shinji choosing not to be the Antichrist. The ending on EoE is hell.

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Postby TehDonutKing » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:25 pm

This WMG was Jossed by Word of God.
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Re: 13 thesis on the symbolism of Evangelion

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:07 pm

View Original PostPetrucio wrote:I have supporting arguments for them.

How about posting them AND the "theories" at the same time?

Your list seems to encompass exactly what Tsurumaki et al. meant when they said that NGE has no religious meaning. Interpreting the Judeo-Christian symbols in the context of the show is okay. Interpreting the show in a Judeo-Christian context isn't anything more than gratuitous WMG/trolling material.

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Re: 13 thesis on the symbolism of Evangelion

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Postby Petrucio » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:16 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:How about posting them AND the "theories" at the same time?
I didn't want to start a monologue, but a dialog. If nobody is interested, I would have wasted my time justifying all the allegations.
View Original PostReichu wrote:Your list seems to encompass exactly what Tsurumaki et al. meant when they said that NGE has no religious meaning.
Yes, I am aware of this, I am just being imaginative and taking a step further. Saying the symbols are there to make it look cool could well just be reverse psychology: people like it because it's almost impossible to find.
I agree that I may be too imaginative on some points, but when symbols are used consistently and convey a meaning that is similar to the meaning conveyed in their original context, you cannot fully appreciate the richness of the work without being aware of the parallels. It's what mythologies are made of.

I'm actually interpreting the series with the premise that it might be some type of "crypto-christian" work - with this in mind, it would make no sense for the authors to say the symbols mean something. I have the feeling that a lot of artists are secretly Christians and a lot of art out there can only be understood if you interpret them in this context. Hey, I have a lot of fun doing it and Evangelion is an example. I could just keep it to myself but I just wanted to share my findings.

For instance, the first theory:

Ayanamy Rei represents Israel.
I started following the obvious clue of her colors (white an blue). It's not that she represents 'Israel', she represents the temple. The first and the second were destroyed, and it is said that the third will be build in the end of days. Just like her, there were 3 Reis in the series, and the last one was the one who did this:
[url]http://shop-yamada.com/eb/E-KIDA-155-1.gif[/url]
Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. (Revelation 11:19-12:2)
I count 12 things "crowning" her.
Last edited by Petrucio on Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 13 thesis on the symbolism of Evangelion

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:26 pm

View Original PostPetrucio wrote:I'm actually interpreting the series with the premise that it might be some type of "crypto-christian" work

Are you suggesting that Anno is secretly a Christian? :uhh:

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Postby TehDonutKing » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:42 pm

This is the most hilarious thread I've seen in a while. Bravo.
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Re: 13 thesis on the symbolism of Evangelion

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Postby Petrucio » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:49 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Are you suggesting that Anno is secretly a Christian? :uhh:
Maybe. It's not cool to be a Christian in most niches of the entertainment industry, so I guess most people just keep it to themselves, but it shows in their work. But that is something we can't know for sure, and it's a type of paranoia to think this way (about what people secretly are), so I just interpret the art.

BTW, I think the same about Björk, for instance. This doesn't sound like an atheist to me.
Last edited by Petrucio on Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Allemann » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:50 am

Your theories can be parsimoniously reduced to one theory: NGE is a metaphor for the book of Revelation.

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Re: 13 thesis on the symbolism of Evangelion

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:25 am

View Original PostPetrucio wrote:Maybe. It's not cool to be a Christian in most niches of the entertainment industry, so I guess most people just keep it to themselves, but it shows in their work.

Anno has stated this about his religious preferences:

Hideaki Anno wrote:I don't belong to any kind of organized religion, so I guess I could be considered agnostic. Japanese spiritualism holds that there is kami (spirit) in everything, and that's closer to my own beliefs.


As for the 12 wings: Eva-01 grows twelve wings, as well. A more likely connection, in my opinion: in Jewish legend, Satan (Sammael) has twelve wings.
Last edited by Reichu on Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 13 thesis on the symbolism of Evangelion

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Postby Allemann » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:27 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Anno has stated this about his religious preferences


That's for the show. He's secretly a Christian. ;)

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Postby soul.assassin » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:08 am

I'll just watch. This thread is going to be very interesting.

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Postby Someone » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:58 am

I lol'd. Sorry if i wasn't supposed to.
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Postby Petrucio » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:49 am

View Original PostAllemann wrote:Your theories can be parsimoniously reduced to one theory: NGE is a metaphor for the book of Revelation.
Yes, this is a fitting conclusion, and I am trying to find evidence of it. I mean, the naming of the series and the whole apocalyptic feel of the story begs for it.
View Original PostAllemann wrote:That's for the show. He's secretly a Christian. ;)
:gendo: Precisely.
Look, even if he was not, couldn't he be inspired by the Bible and esotericism in a deeper level than just aesthetics?

More about Rei being Israel/temple: the first temple was destroyed by the Babylonians, and the Babylonians were destroyed soon after by the Persians. This was during the Babylonian exile, when many Jews were taken captive to Babylon, Daniel among them. Legend says that during that time, Daniel founded a secret sect of Babylonian magi astronomers with the task of looking for the star that pointed to the birth of the messiah. It is said that those were the "wise men from the east".

Rei I was killed by Naoko, and Naoko died soon after. She was building the Magi System.

Parenthesis: this would make Ritsuko and her mother a type of the whore of Babylon:
And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (Revelation 17:5).

The Akagi girls being the creators of the Magi System and the EVAs (both things use the same cybernetic technology) are "the mother of the abominations of the earth" - see 2nd theory. The Magi Systems is the government of Tokyo-3, which, arguably, rules the rest of the world during most of the series:
"And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth." (Revelation 17:18).

The woman is the city! How genius it is to make a woman into a supercomputer that is the brain of a city to symbolize this concept! Also
"Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. (Revelation 17:9-10)"

The Magi System is composed of 6 branches - in episode 25', 5 have fallen to Seele. Ritsuko uses the type-666 firewall, to stop the attack. My theory is that this firewall uses the hardware of the Dummy Plug Plant, and I think the DPP is a type of supercomputer-human-machine-hybrid-soul-container much like the Magi System:
And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. (Revelation 17:11)

I think the beast is unit-01. Unit-01 is the eighth "abomination" created by the Akagi girls. 6 branches of the Magi System. The 7th is the DPP - it lasts just a short time on the battle scene, as the type-666 firewall (I mean, what else does Nerv possesses that could stop a 6 Magi Supercomputer hacking attack?).

There is more evidence and parallels on this subject, but I digress. Back to Rei as the temple.

The second temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE. Christians see that as a consequence of the rejection of the messiah.

Rei II destroyed herself in the battle against Armisael, the last angel before Kaworu. I also see Rei as a type of Mary, because of her passive personality. Also, protestants generally interpret the woman in Revelation 12, which I think giant Rei in EoE is symbolic of, as Israel, but catholics view that woman as Mary. Anyway, you can say that Armisael was trying to impregnate Rei. With what? If she was Mary, and being Armisael the last angel with an "el" suffix, I imagine that Armisael represents the second coming! He does shows up suddenly and without notice. Rei II had the chance of accepting to unite with Armisael, but she instead killed it, and this resulted in her destruction.

(Another side note: there are 13 angels with the suffix "el". 12 apostles + Armisael - I think Sandalphon represents Judas, who was latter replaced by Paul. In this view, Lilith, Adam, Kaworu and Lilin are different things).
View Original PostReichu wrote: As for the 12 wings: Eva-01 grows twelve wings, as well. A more likely connection, in my opinion: in Jewish legend, Satan (Sammael) has twelve wings.
His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. (Revelation 12:4) The wings on giant Rei can represent stars, witch can represent angels. The passage above is commonly interpreted to mean that when Lucifer rebelled, a third of the angels followed him. Also, in my analysis, there were 12 good angels in the series (the ones with the "el" suffix, except for Armisael who I think wasn't just an angel, as explained above). We traditionally depict angels as having wings, so maybe those wings on giant Rei are those 12 previous angels who were "defeated" by the EVAs during the series.

And the wings on unit-01 look very different, they look "evil", the ones in giant Rei are much nicer looking, but that's just my impression.

Also, Unit 01 is the beast in my interpretation, so that fits. More precisely, I think the entity they call "Adam" in the series is Satan, and he shows up later in a more appealing form as Tabris.

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Postby AuraTwilight » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:29 pm

Look, even if he was not, couldn't he be inspired by the Bible and esotericism in a deeper level than just aesthetics?


No. He's literally said that it's just there to look cool.
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Postby Petrucio » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:03 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:No. He's literally said that it's just there to look cool.
View Original PostPetrucio wrote: Yes, I am aware of this, I am just being imaginative and taking a step further. Saying the symbols are there to make it look cool could well just be reverse psychology: people like it because it's almost impossible to find
Also, one thing is to make it look cool, another one is when the symbols and general plots harmonize in such a way that they convey a coherent meaning. This is, of course, a subjective experience, but being subjective doesn't mean it's just imaginary. It means some people see it, and some people don't. People who don't see it usually tell themselves that there is no meaning at all. This is their excuse for not searching the meaning.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:25 pm

It's one thing for the religious references to have a relevance that is internal to the story (which they do, much of the time). It's a whole other thing for the entire show to be a Judeo-Christian allegory. I can understand maybe doing this kind of analysis strictly for fun, but done seriously it betrays a serious lack of understanding about Evangelion's spiritual heart.

But it's possible that I'm just being reactionary. Feel free to continue presenting your ideas. Explaining how you've come to your conclusions is the only way to address the skepticism anyway.

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Postby TehDonutKing » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:05 pm

I beg to differ when it comes to Rei being Mary. Isn't it obvious? Mari is Mary! First of all, in Greek, Mary is pronounced like Mari is, but with a different r sound! I think that NGE represents Judaism, and Rebuild is Christianity. We'll have to see if Mari gives birth to Kiel (since he's obviously supposed to be Jesus. In fact, the Greek pronunciation of Jesus is identical to the pronunciation of Kiel in that one language. )
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:28 pm

I think this is an interesting idea. It's fairly obvious that it's not the intent, but there's ample precedent for intentionally applying an unusual slant to a work for whatever reason even if it doesn't coincide with the intent of the author, the work's stated narrative, or the common audience understanding of either. It sounds like a fun undertaking so long as one doesn't get too carried away.
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Postby Petrucio » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:35 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote: Explaining how you've come to your conclusions is the only way to address the skepticism anyway.
I woke up one day and I heard a voice whispering a suggestion for me to do something. I did it, and by the end of the day, I understood. I watched the whole series again, and everything made perfect sense (imagine that!).

Well, not really.

It's not that new of a concept, this type of thing has been done before. For instance, alchemy is generally regarded as "demonic" by most religious people out there (kind of like NGE...) but if you look close enough, with enough patience (after you've done some research), you come to the conclusion that alchemy could be exactly what you said, a Judeo-Christian allegory.

When someone says Christian, people think "church people", but I think NGE is more like Christian-gnosticism, (which is also not cool with most church people, but hey, that's kind of what I'm saying here).
View Original PostTehDonutKing wrote:I beg to differ when it comes to Rei being Mary. Isn't it obvious? Mari is Mary!
Well, I'm not talking about Rebuild yet, since that is not over and we have to wait and see what they come up with, but, so far, all the changes in Rebuild only confirm my theories. Also, like I said in the 7th theory, Shinji is supposed to be the Antichrist, which means he has to reject Rei - that's Asuka's purpose, to make Shinji... Shin? Sin! That makes more sense, doesn't it? Anyway, maybe she is another version of Asuka, kind of like an anti-Mary. You don't want to put all your eggs in one basket if you are planing a rebellion against God.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It sounds like a fun undertaking so long as one doesn't get too carried away.
Well, that's my intent!

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:56 pm

View Original PostPetrucio wrote:I woke up one day and I heard a voice whispering a suggestion for me to do something. I did it, and by the end of the day, I understood. I watched the whole series again, and everything made perfect sense (imagine that!).

I don't have to imagine. Back around the beginning of 2006, I sincerely believed that I had been blessed with the secret to understanding NGE, and I wrote vast oceans of text about the revelations I was experiencing.

Turned out that I'd had my first-ever manic experience, and I got to start taking a new pill every morning and evening.

so far, all the changes in Rebuild only confirm my theories.

How do they confirm anything about NGE? NGE doesn't have Angels that cause floods and rainbows, or bad guys that hide behind an apple and a snake, or halos everywhere, or places named after Biblical locations, or Evas that turn into Babylonian whores, or etc. Speaking of which, you ought to be doing this exercise with NME (so-called "Rebuild") instead of NGE. If NGE abuses Judeo-Christian references, NME rapes them in every orifice.

Also, like I said in the 7th theory,

Enumerating the "theories" suggests that you're employing the term "theory" in a more formal sense than "speculation" or "hunch". In which case, "theory" means everything but.

That makes more sense, doesn't it?

One thing you need to keep in mind is that at least half of the people on this forum are atheist, agnostic, or otherwise not of Abrahamic persuasion. For my part, I have absolutely no idea what the significance of most of your claims is supposed to be, since you seem more interested in how the show "services" the Bible than how Biblical allusions enhance understanding of the show.


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