[TV] A Game of Thrones

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:02 am

So I've had the first season on BD for several months now, and I finally had the time to sit down and watch TWO (2) D O S episodes. What I've gathered so far:

1. The direwolf Lady did nothing wrong.
2. The king's son is a brat.
3. The Lannister's incestuous son is a scumbag.
4. The Targaryen prince is a fucking scumbag.

Seems alright so far, I mean I'm only two episodes in but the "Big ol' tiddies and dicks!" jokes I constantly hear about this show has yet to ring true for me. Will probably watch more over the weekend.
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Postby Ray » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:17 am

Westeros. A Game Of Throne Spin-Off set a millenium after the events of the series

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9U-rhVp1CQ

SPOILER: Show
It's really a prank as part of a publicity stunt for a Holland Pop Band
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Postby Chuckman » Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:48 pm

Given how old this thread is it may be that no one gives a shit, but holy fuck sauce was that one of the worst conclusions to a plot in the history of television.

SPOILER: Show
Stab the leader and all the bad guys fall down!


Everything they came up with on their own after the books ran out has been atrocious and this is by far the worst example, even worse than Bad Pussy. Holy Christ on a cupcake.
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Postby silvermoonlight » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:13 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Given how old this thread is it may be that no one gives a shit, but holy fuck sauce was that one of the worst conclusions to a plot in the history of television.

SPOILER: Show
Stab the leader and all the bad guys fall down!


Everything they came up with on their own after the books ran out has been atrocious and this is by far the worst example, even worse than Bad Pussy. Holy Christ on a cupcake.


I want to be surprised but I had a gut feeling once they ran out of book this series was gonna falter badly, because I've seen it so many times now.
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Postby Reichu » Wed May 01, 2019 3:20 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Given how old this thread is it may be that no one gives a shit, but holy fuck sauce was that one of the worst conclusions to a plot in the history of television.

It was as if millions of dangling plot threads suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced.

There's nothing much to say about post-books GoT that hasn't already been said before. The degradation of the show from a sharp however imperfect adaptation to empty, pandering spectacle has been nothing less than sad. I know the main reason is because they ran out of book, but that feels incomplete as an answer. The real issue, to me, is the failure to remain adherent to the spirit of the work itself. Without the books there to keep them in line, the showrunners fell completely out of touch with what was important and what made the story great. They were unable and unwilling to follow GRRM's lead to where it most logically lead. One only needs to scroll through the average discussion thread for seasons 5 and beyond to see how much flagrant disregard for the basic laws of cause and effect has completely strangled the show.

I guess one plus side to all this is that you don't get a much more spectacular illustration of GRRM's story-crafting talent than this... what happens when GRRM's influence is taken away. I hope he can get past these roadblocks in the writing process, and look back on what he did with a sense of accomplishment, and not the disappointment of what might have been. That feeling of being stuck inside your own story unable to escape past a certain point is such an awful place for any creative person to be.

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Postby silvermoonlight » Wed May 01, 2019 7:27 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:It was as if millions of dangling plot threads suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced.

There's nothing much to say about post-books GoT that hasn't already been said before. The degradation of the show from a sharp however imperfect adaptation to empty, pandering spectacle has been nothing less than sad. I know the main reason is because they ran out of book, but it feels incomplete. The real issue, to me, is the failure to remain adherent to the spirit of the work itself. Without the books there to keep them in line, the showrunners fell completely out of touch with what was important and what made the story great. They were unable and unwilling to follow GRRM's lead to where it most logically lead. One only needs to scroll through the average discussion thread for seasons 5 and beyond to see how much flagrant disregard for the basic laws of cause and effect has completely strangled the show.


I heard the many controversy's didn't help ether and people casually going well who is going to have sexual violence done to them this week as that caused a lot of websites to pull there support because the after match for the victims was not treated well at all and more like bad sex. I'm only mentioning this as this same issue destroyed the Spartacus series. Blood And Sand and Gods of The Arena were brilliant and well balance and under stood the male/female victim's issues but the final two series were just godawful in my view and the level of sexual violence was well off the scales and not dealt with well at all, making the show really unlikeable by the end.
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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Sat May 11, 2019 6:45 pm

How come no one is bitching and bringing down the fucking Fury? Reddit is a goldmine.
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Postby Reichu » Sun May 12, 2019 5:56 am

For my part, I knew the show I had loved was dead back in season 6. There's just nothing to say; the Internet Rage Machine has my back.

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Postby Chuckman » Sun May 12, 2019 3:11 pm

I was overseas and couldn’t see the last episode when it was aired and saw spoilers. I knew the episode was bad before I watched it. I fast forwarded through it in twenty minutes or so while I was waiting for my soup to boil after I got back here from a nine hour flight.

I really should be deeply pissed off at the way they handled Sandor and Sansa, but it’s almost like watching strangers. They’re not even the characters from earlier seasons of the show, much less the books.

The quality of the show has followed an unfortunate progression:

Season 1, 2, 3: Adaptation of the books
Season 4, 5: Fan fiction of the books
Season 6, 7, 8: Fan fiction of the show
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Postby Guy Nacks » Sun May 12, 2019 7:17 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:I knew the episode was bad before I watched it.


SPOILER: Show
Image
Among the people who use the Internet, many are obtuse. Because they are locked in their rooms, they hang on to that vision which is spreading across the world. But this does not go beyond mere ‘data’. Data without analysis [thinking], which makes you think that you know everything. This complacency is nothing but a trap. Moreover, the sense of values that counters this notion is paralyzed by it.

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Sat May 18, 2019 3:01 pm

^
ThEy waNteD tO SuBvErt oUR ExPEcTatioNS!
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun May 19, 2019 7:55 am

I knew the show was gonna die when I saw Episode 1 of Season 1. Basically the writers would spam cool things just to make the bits of bad writing more bearable to watch. (There was a lot of pointless nudity during the scenes where the writing wasn't the greatest, for example.) And as soon as they ran out of books to adapt, the bad writing became more prevalent, as did the spamming of cool things. This all lead to them misappropriating friggin' dragons in this season because they can't writ anything good anymore but still had to have something cool has to be going on, so there ya go.

Basically what I'm saying is that nudity in art is like dragons in art: You need to have a good artistic/narrative/thematic reason for it, otherwise audiences end up hating the whole thing. GoT shows signs of not understanding that since Season 1, and it's paying the consequences for not learning from that mistake now. The signs were there from the beginning, and this is *technically* still the same show that everyone signed in on at the beginning. It's just that nobody realized how bad it was until now.

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sun May 19, 2019 7:09 pm

Shrug. I've loved this final season because all the character work & storylines have been building to these and the problem has been the audiences treating the show & the question of "Who will attain the Throne" like sports. Has the execution been perfect? No. Has the execution been terrible? Also no. Has the negative response been excessively hyperbolic? Probably.

Anywho, everyone is entitled to their opinion and my two cents is the Final Season of Game of Thrones up to now (Finale hasn't aired yet) has been overall a success. Everything is just overly negative at the moment because there's been 10 years of fan theories built up - Dany the warlord is going to be a just leader, Jaime the vain narcissist is going to become a good man, CleganeBowl not being paid off as a cool action scene but ultimately presented as an empty exercise in pointless male stupidity because two broken men who can't escape their etc etc - that the show isn't paying off because they're telling a different - and much darker as has always been the case - story. I also applaud the creators for intentionally going with divisive choices. Half the people I've spoken to in the real world have loved the final season. Half have not been a fan. There's been no "it's fine" responses. Online the response is predominantly hatred but that's always been the internet; allowing a vocal minority to present the allusion they're the majority.

Whether or not Martin finishes the books (I'm gonna go with "Not") I'll be curious to see what the response is to Game of Thrones a few years done the road when tempers have cooled and the passionate fan theories that people have carried for up to a decade & the empty hot take criticisms have been allowed to fade away a little. There will always be that core angry group - the "the Rebuild of Evangelion movies are all fucking garbage & completely devoid of anything good to say" group that still exists to this day and always returns to the forums to say the movies suck, the writers don't know what they're doing, Asuka would never do that, etc Etc ETC immediately comes to mind - but I'd be willing to bet the final season will get a different response when watched removed from being "The Pop Culture Event of 2019". Big pop culture events like that shouldn't be for dark shows about how power corrupts absolutely - no one should want the Throne & I'm always amazed people treat it like a sport, it's a major misreading of the text that has been there since the First few seasons based on Martin's writing - but should be for uplifting stories that leave everyone feeling good. I wasn't a fan but Avengers: Endgame does this very well - and should be applauded for doing so - by intentionally jumping through every narrative hurdle possible so as to tell a story where everything goes exactly how the fans wanted it to go no matter what big logical issues were ignored - Hawkeye is a racist murderer whose atrocities are so violent they bring Black Widow to tears at one point but otherwise the heroes are all seemingly okay with this - or how wildly out of character - Capt. America would not let the past 70 years of world atrocities happen but he gets that dance so no one complains.

I'm not saying the final season of GoT is perfect. Far from it. There definitely should have been a few extra episodes to correct some pacing issues. Though as an aside I'd say not not Daenery's story; any complaints of not understanding why Daenerys burned King's Landing last week strikes me as peak white privilege since everyone seemed okay with it when she was burning every black or Middle Eastern person who dared question her... everyone also seemed okay with her leaving the nation of freed slaves behind in the hands of one dude just so she could go get a silly seat, She's always been an awful warlord who has ruled through fear. We've just intentionally been given that story through HER eyes so it has always seemed just. Her story should have ended with freeing the slaves in Essos. Once she fucked off from Essos with her entire fleet and her dragons to get the Iron Throne she was no longer a liberator. She was an invader.

I just think the weird conundrum of such a pessimistic, violent, dark & anti-authoritarian story becoming the Pop Culture event at a time when people only want upbeat stories to counter the toxicity of the world around them has created quite the in-moment response. There's been some valid criticism but too much is around the show not doing "what I want" and that's not how stories should work.

I'll be curious to see what the response is to the show a few years from now. Evangelion 3.0 has been getting a revisit lately now that some people - not all - who were furiously upset about the 14 year time jump back in 2012/13 have revisited the film since and started to accept the story was not the fan servicey tale they first though it was but something else.

Either way, that's my two cents.

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Sun May 19, 2019 11:27 pm

https://www.change.org/p/hbo-remake-gam ... nt-writers

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon May 20, 2019 5:26 am

^ Oh, that’s not happening. These episodes were filmed months ago and the producers probably granted picture lock and moved on to other things by now.

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Postby Chuckman » Mon May 20, 2019 11:07 am

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/ob ... f-thrones/

This outlines the main reasons why the last two seasons have been so god awful.

Well, one of them anyway.

At its best, GOT was a beast as rare as a friendly dragon in King’s Landing: it was sociological and institutional storytelling in a medium dominated by the psychological and the individual. This structural storytelling era of the show lasted through the seasons when it was based on the novels by George R. R. Martin, who seemed to specialize in having characters evolve in response to the broader institutional settings, incentives and norms that surround them.


In essence, Game of Thrones started off as something closer to The Wire, and tried to pivot into a tragic, psychological story ala Breaking Bad without laying the groundwork for such a shift. It’s adapted from a story that is very heavy on the sociological, institutional focus. Much as Baltimore is a character in The Wire, “the realm” is something of a character in ASOIAF. The characters grapple with institutional and cultural issues, like the concept of honor or the difficulty and morality of harshly ruling a culture alien to one’s own.

By shifting away from those elements, it became a tits and dragons soap opera. Game of Thrones has proven the utter vapidity of the farthouse film student mentality that visuals are paramount and explaining things doesn’t matter; television as a medium demands and rewards complexity and depth and Game of Thrones systematically stripped out all of the depth, often with incredibly lame and hackneyed plot choices that come out of a video game. (Really? You stab the leader and they all fall down?)

The ending was trite and predictable and wrapped itself up while ignoring the storytelling meat to force an ending that isn’t a conclusion. A story about institutions leaving everything about institutions off screen is a creative failure.

It’s really blatantly obvious that they just took a bulleted list from GRRM himself and jumped from point to point without caring how absurdly they had to jam the plot into places it didn’t fit.

That’s what’s ultimately so frustrating- there were dozens of brilliant ideas scattered throughout the finale season, but they were neither established properly nor given time to breathe and settle in for the audience.

Really, it just illustrated for us how much better the books would be. They would have the grounding in an institutional, sociological story they need to have impact.

I can’t believe anyone could look at this and call it worthy of previous seasons. If a bullshit season that starts with a dick joke and has a character presenting a book with the title of the series at the end can win awards, the awards are meaningless.

SPOILER: Show
Seriously, their Khal of Khals, the Stallion who Mounts the World, dragon riding queen dies and the Dothraki are totally peaceful and just hang around the docks waiting to leave?


The quality of the show followed a pretty clear progression:

Season 1-4: Adaptation of the books
Season 5-6: Fan fiction of the books
Season 7-8: Fan fiction of the show
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Re: [TV] A Game of Thrones

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Postby silvermoonlight » Mon May 20, 2019 11:29 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/

This outlines the main reasons why the last two seasons have been so god awful.

Well, one of them anyway.



In essence, Game of Thrones started off as something closer to The Wire, and tried to pivot into a tragic, psychological story ala Breaking Bad without laying the groundwork for such a shift. It’s adapted from a story that is very heavy on the sociological, institutional focus. Much as Baltimore is a character in The Wire, “the realm” is something of a character in ASOIAF. The characters grapple with institutional and cultural issues, like the concept of honor or the difficulty and morality of harshly ruling a culture alien to one’s own.

By shifting away from those elements, it became a tits and dragons soap opera. Game of Thrones has proven the utter vapidity of the farthouse film student mentality that visuals are paramount and explaining things doesn’t matter; television as a medium demands and rewards complexity and depth and Game of Thrones systematically stripped out all of the depth, often with incredibly lame and hackneyed plot choices that come out of a video game. (Really? You stab the leader and they all fall down?)


I agree and I feel really bad about this show as it started off really good I know its odd to say but I wish this series had been done in the early 2000's because then that focus would have remained character driven and on point as it would be riding the LOTR movies waves, but looking at it now its like a LOTR soup and an insult to the oringal books concepts and ideas.

Like you even have the writers going oh yeah this character forgot about the army and they killed her dragon and your just WTF? Are you being serious? No person in there right mind would believe this. To me its more bad fanfiction the kind your write when your 15 clueless and don't know any better yet these people are meant to be pro's there getting paid for this and I'm not surprised now that people are losing there tempers and getting annoyed over starbucks cups, its because they feel like they've been cheated then pissed on with out them having the curiosity of calling it rain.
Last edited by silvermoonlight on Tue May 21, 2019 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [TV] A Game of Thrones

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Postby Reichu » Mon May 20, 2019 1:03 pm

I have no doubts the last episode is going to be a garbage fire, but I'll suffer through it tonight anyway, just so I can say "Yes, I did suffer through it and it WAS in fact a garbage fire."

Thanks for linking that, Chuckman. Articulating the crux of the problem has been difficult. It reminds me quite a lot of a previous incisive critique I saw, which pinned the main problem to the show's complete abandonment of organic cause and effect. The two points -- sociological storytelling, and organic cause and effect -- are basically two sides of the same, aren't they? The world had at one point been one giant machine. (Acknowledged, even, in the design of the opening credits -- until the last season, which at least had the self-awareness to have the sequence redesigned to showcase how parochial it'd become...) Because of all of the different societies, nations, family lines, all the conflicting interests, every action by anyone influential enough rippled and cascaded in all directions. The death of Jon Arryn set off a continental war, and it all made perfect sense. Every little thing mattered. GRRM got me thinking about consequences in storytelling in a whole new way.

@Gendo's Papa: The kinds of disappointed fans you're talking about exist, of course, but in the context of this particular thread your post comes off as... inappropriate? Trite? Tone deaf? Acknowledge the opinions of the people who are actually here. Not doing so makes it seem implicit that you're grouping everyone who didn't like the season together in the same lowest-common-denominator basket, and are in effect telling us that we are incapable of articulating our own reasons for feeling a certain way. ("Oh, you don't ACTUALLY know why you hated it. Here, let me tell you what you REALLY think...")

You want to defend the season? Defend it against the kinds of criticism you've so conveniently chosen to ignore. You should be seeking to counter "Freefolk"-style criticisms not the "Kneeler" ones. These are plentiful online if you look in the right places (like, I dunno... this thread). Only paying attention to the worst parts of the Internet hype/hate machine is not good for critical thinking and quality argumentation and I'm sure you already know that.

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Mon May 20, 2019 2:12 pm

Certainly never my intention. If it came off like that I apologize.
I guess I just wish everyone could have had the same experience I did which overall was a very enjoyable one.

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Postby Chuckman » Mon May 20, 2019 3:14 pm

@Reichu, a redditor from a few years ago put it like this:

It started as a show that doesn’t cheat to help the good guys and became a show that cheats to help the bad guys.

I’d add to that by saying it came around to cheating to help the good guys in a particularly egregious way. So, really, they just started cheating. Things no longer happened as an organic outgrowth of character actions. They happened because they needed them to.

It’s the hallmark of amateurish writing when the strings pulling the story are visible like that.

It’s annoying to me also that the show injected so much modern morality into the characters around the midpoint of the series when the whole point of ASOIAF is to examine what parts of real history we idealize and incorporate into fantasy stories and how they relate to their real-world origins.
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