Can Shinji Ikari even be compared Ender Wiggin?

[GAP]

They both have some things in common, they are both 'third' children, they both go through hell, they both fight monsters, they get screwed up by said monsters, they more or less achieve pyrrhic victory and they are both dealing with less than desirable circumstances. The difference depending on the continuity Ender more or less got better while Shinji is messed up for life. I need reread Ender's game and the series for more details but that is what I had gathered but still can Shinji even be compared to Ender?

[Mr. Tines]

I only read the original "Ender's Game" novella in Analog rather than the expansion. It was another of the "Let's pretend 'Nam didn't happen" war against the Collective and winning by individual endeavour stories that were endemic in the mid-late '70s, and eminently forgettable as such. A tale of cultural malaise (which the US still hasn't really recovered from) rather than one of personal depression; so only vaguely comparable at that level.

Ender himself was just another misunderstood geek -- an audience identification character for the expected target readership; not really like the amiably bumbling Shinji.

[LordEvan88]

I would say yes in the sense that they fall under the same archetypal umbrella as, say, Luke Skywalker.

I am not certain what level of scrutiny you want to put it under. I am not the biggest fan of OSC, but I did read up a bit and there are some similarities (The use of the hero as a military asset, for example). But I figure the thing that makes Shinji such a remarkable character in the archetype is that he is beyond reluctant. He absolutely abhors the responsibility placed on him and only faces it bravely in brief bursts. He has no spine and there is the notable omission of a mentor figure with which to balance him and help him grow.

Misato tries to guide him and you can see a bit of Kaji trying to do the same, but ultimately they are both fractured human beings with no wisdom to them. So Shinji has no grounding or direction or anyone to look up to tell him right and wrong because everybody is FRIGGIN CRAZY.

[Jessemon]

Misato tries to guide him and you can see a bit of Kaji trying to do the same, but ultimately they are both fractured human beings with no wisdom to them. So Shinji has no grounding or direction or anyone to look up to tell him right and wrong because everybody is FRIGGIN CRAZY.

Not to stray too far off topic, but I think this might be an overstatement. Misato could be considered fractured, but she still tries her best to help Shinji throughout the series, and quite frequently DOES say or do the right thing. The trouble is (as she points out at some point) that she ISN'T Shinji's mother, and no matter how hard she tries, Shinji will ultimately always shy away from her when things get too personal or when she strikes a nerve.

Kaji, on the other hand, is pretty damn normal. I wouldn't say that his inability to tell Misato he loves her makes him fractured or crazy. If that was the case, then 99% of people in the real world could be considered crazy for having similarly small issues. And Kaji DOES give Shinji some pretty solid advice at certain points in the series. Not to mention that Kaji could be seen as THE reason why Shinji decides to re-pilot Unit 01 in Episode 19.

I'm just nitpicking though, because I get a little tired of people saying that everyone in NGE is crazy or messed up, as if people arn't allowed to have any issues whatsoever.

[NemZ]

A much better comparison could be made to Asuka, considering Ender and his sub-commanders actually had to study and train their assess off to earn their status in an intensely competitive environment where being identified as a tactical genius was a requirement to even get in the door.

Actually, it's a really good question why the hell Nerv didn't put all the potential pilots through a similar program.

[Jessemon]

A much better comparison could be made to Asuka, considering Ender and his sub-commanders actually had to study and train their assess off to earn their status in an intensely competitive environment where being identified as a tactical genius was a requirement to even get in the door.

Actually, it's a really good question why the hell Nerv didn't put all the potential pilots through a similar program.

Technically they did with Asuka, they didn't really need to with Rei, and Gendo simply didn't know how to handle Shinji (and probably assumed Yui would bail him out).

As for Toji, blame Anno.

[Azathoth]

Actually, it's a really good question why the hell Nerv didn't put all the potential pilots through a similar program.

Because Nerv is a grossly incompetent organization run by a madman for personal satisfaction.

[NemZ]

I said ALL, as in the entirety of class 2-A as well as any other candidates Nerv was considering throughout their global infrastructure. And I meant A program, singular, so that they'd develop the kind of ties to each other that military units have depended on to keep morale and unit cohesion on the level for centuries. The Marduke Academy, basically.

Now of course this didn't happen because it wouldn't allow things to be socially awkward and suddenly terrifying to our audience-avatar as Anno wanted... but from an in-universe perspective it's a ridiculously obvious lapse.

Edit: heh, yeah there's that too.

[GAP]

You think they would actually give child soldiers some training or therapy.

[Jessemon]

You think they would actually give child soldiers some training or therapy.

Wait, you mean locking them in a cell isn't "therapy?"

[BiQ]

But then they wouldn't be easily controllable emotional trainwrecks prone to end the world, you know?

[EvangelionFan]

Having read the four main novels in the Ender Saga, I would like to offer some points for you to consider:

- Ender had strong, if differing, relationships with his older siblings Peter and Valentine. It could be argued that these relationships serve the basis for a great deal of his behaviour in Ender's Game.
- Before entering the Battle School, Ender enters a fight with another child - Ender wins the fight. Again, years later in the Battle School, Ender fights a classmate in the bathroom and wins. In both cases, Ender had actually beaten the other child to death. The Admirals/Officers hide this truth from Ender.
- Graduating from the Battle School and heading to the Asteroid facility, Ender is again lied to: he is told that he is undertaking training exercises with his former classmates when they are actually real-time battles. Hence in the final 'simulation', Ender uses the Molecular Disruption Device as he believes he has no other choices... and actually wipes out the entirety of the bugger race, committing Xenocide. At the same time, Ender learns that he had previously killed two students.
- As Ender and Valentine go off and explore the stars, Ender discovers - in a place resembling the game he used to play - a Hive Queen Egg left by the Buggers. Ender, feeling this is a chance to redeem himself, takes the Egg and proceeds to search other worlds for a home for it. Ender also writes a book about the Bugger race under a pseudonym, which along with a book about his brother, becomes widespread throughout Earth and its colonies.
- In Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide and Children of the Mind, it is established that Ender has a strong bond with the unborn/surviving Hive Queen. Further aspects of this bond are further explored as the Queen is allowed to hatch and restart her race. Similarly, Ender has a bond with an A.I. known as Jane, who exists in the connections between Ansibles (faster-than-light communication devices) throughout the human colonies; and her creation was the result of Ender's 'innocent' interactions with the Hive Queen via a computer game during his years at the Battle School.
- In Xenocide, when Ender enters the 'outside', he unwittingly creates clones of his brother and sister based on his interpretation of them from when they were children. In Children of the Mind, their very existence comprimises Ender's, as they share his 'aura'. He later dies in order for his 'aura' to be transferred to the body of Peter.


I've no intention of comparing Shinji with Ender, nonetheless, those are just a few points about the novels that might help you folks with your comparisons.

[LordEvan88]

Not to stray too far off topic, but I think this might be an overstatement. Misato could be considered fractured, but she still tries her best to help Shinji throughout the series, and quite frequently DOES say or do the right thing. The trouble is (as she points out at some point) that she ISN'T Shinji's mother, and no matter how hard she tries, Shinji will ultimately always shy away from her when things get too personal or when she strikes a nerve.

Kaji, on the other hand, is pretty damn normal. I wouldn't say that his inability to tell Misato he loves her makes him fractured or crazy. If that was the case, then 99% of people in the real world could be considered crazy for having similarly small issues. And Kaji DOES give Shinji some pretty solid advice at certain points in the series. Not to mention that Kaji could be seen as THE reason why Shinji decides to re-pilot Unit 01 in Episode 19.

I'm just nitpicking though, because I get a little tired of people saying that everyone in NGE is crazy or messed up, as if people arn't allowed to have any issues whatsoever.

No, I agree. I like Kaji because he has it way more together than anyone else. But the nature of his character makes him somewhat unreliable in his capacity to counsel Shinji. Their discussion prior to the Zeruel fight is my favorite scene in the series. But ultimately Kaji has certain goals in mind, and they certainly go beyond being with Misato, let alone being a mentor to Shinji. He knows its a matter of time before he ceases to be of use so he can't be the man he want's to be.

Misato is definitely way more complicated, because she could be good. But there is definitely a sexuality barrier there, as well as the fact that she is just as shattered by the events of the series as Shinji is, and her relationship with her father and the events of second impact denies her a perspective in which she would be able to look after Shinji the way he needs to be.

The main flaw of Evangelions characters is not their emotional instability, which is prevalent among a lot of people, but rather their inability to use others to balance those qualities. (Usually as a result of circumstance)

That having been said, we now resume your regularly scheduled Orson Scott Card discussion.

You think they would actually give child soldiers some training or therapy.

I like to think there was a NERV appointed in-house psychiatrist who quit after 15 minutes of honest discussion with Gendo.

[GAP]

@EvangelionFan

With those in mind, why would anyone consider Shinji to be like Ender Wiggin? They some similarities but they are different, did Ender get the same reception Shinji had?

[NemZ]

Read it yourself; it's not a very long book. The sequels and spinoffs, however, aren't worth it.

[theobject]

They are similar in that they are the eponymous 'Third Child', and that they are manipulated into becoming weapons of terror, so to speak. However, Ender's Game is more about Ender in his process to becoming the commander that will save humanity, than it is in the actual war, he is more or less tricked into killing everyone, and then goes somewhat comatose when he learns the truth. While Shinji does not truly understand the consequences, motives, or desires of Gendo, or Instrumentality/Third Impact, he is piloting the Evangelion first-hand, and is destroying things with what feels like his hands, seeing it with his eyes. Shinji is constantly reminded of the role he is playing, whereas Ender is constantly reminded of what role he will be playing, and doesn't know that he is destroying the buggers.

Also, while both are originally coerced into doing whatever it is they do (in Ender's case, Battle/Command School and the simluations, Shinji piloting the Eva), their basic desires/instincts are different. While Shinji's reasons for piloting the Evangelion are somewhat open to interpretation, originally including needing his father's praise, by the end he is piloting because he is forced to. A lot of Ender's psyche is developed from how he balances his cruelty and empathy, Ender, by any means possible, wants to survive. That is why he beats the other two children to death, unknowingly. He is regretful, but justifies it, and moreso, he wants to live, which is much more than can be said for Shinji by EOE.

Ender was also chosen to be a leader, the great leader that would allow Earth to survive the onslaught from the Buggers. Shinji is the exact opposite of a gifted leader- extremely socially awkward, unconfident, low self-esteem. Ender is chosen as because he is a genius, and also because he balances the cruelty needed to win wars (coming from his brother, Peter), and the empathy needed to create an army that will believe, and love him, and trust hum completely (coming from his sister, Valentine). Ender understands people, which is completely different from Shinji. Just because they are two traumatized children placed in extreme situations that compromise xenocide/Third Impact does not make them similar characters.

[violaine]

@EvangelionFan

With those in mind, why would anyone consider Shinji to be like Ender Wiggin? They some similarities but they are different, did Ender get the same reception Shinji had?

it mostly stems from the whole "awkward little boys forced into military training who kill a lot of people/aliens and feel bad about it" thing.

[GAP]

They are similar in that they are the eponymous 'Third Child', and that they are manipulated into becoming weapons of terror, so to speak. However, Ender's Game is more about Ender in his process to becoming the commander that will save humanity, than it is in the actual war, he is more or less tricked into killing everyone, and then goes somewhat comatose when he learns the truth. While Shinji does not truly understand the consequences, motives, or desires of Gendo, or Instrumentality/Third Impact, he is piloting the Evangelion first-hand, and is destroying things with what feels like his hands, seeing it with his eyes. Shinji is constantly reminded of the role he is playing, whereas Ender is constantly reminded of what role he will be playing, and doesn't know that he is destroying the buggers.

Also, while both are originally coerced into doing whatever it is they do (in Ender's case, Battle/Command School and the simluations, Shinji piloting the Eva), their basic desires/instincts are different. While Shinji's reasons for piloting the Evangelion are somewhat open to interpretation, originally including needing his father's praise, by the end he is piloting because he is forced to. A lot of Ender's psyche is developed from how he balances his cruelty and empathy, Ender, by any means possible, wants to survive. That is why he beats the other two children to death, unknowingly. He is regretful, but justifies it, and moreso, he wants to live, which is much more than can be said for Shinji by EOE.

Ender was also chosen to be a leader, the great leader that would allow Earth to survive the onslaught from the Buggers. Shinji is the exact opposite of a gifted leader- extremely socially awkward, unconfident, low self-esteem. Ender is chosen as because he is a genius, and also because he balances the cruelty needed to win wars (coming from his brother, Peter), and the empathy needed to create an army that will believe, and love him, and trust hum completely (coming from his sister, Valentine). Ender understands people, which is completely different from Shinji. Just because they are two traumatized children placed in extreme situations that compromise xenocide/Third Impact does not make them similar characters.

it mostly stems from the whole "awkward little boys forced into military training who kill a lot of people/aliens and feel bad about it" thing.

I see so explains a lot.

[AshPhoenix]

it mostly stems from the whole "awkward little boys forced into military training who kill a lot of people/aliens and feel bad about it" thing.

Does Shinji really feel bad about killing the Angels? He doesn't show much remorse. Ender, on the other hand, basically devotes his whole life to finding a new home planet for the Hive Queen because of the guilt he feels. He writes books about the Formics and does whatever he can to make sure that everyone knows that they're a good, sentient race just like humans (and he does all that's in his power to save the Pequeninos too). And Shinji just goes into a depression and stuff.

Yeah, so basically what theobject said.

[violaine]

Does Shinji really feel bad about killing the Angels? He doesn't show much remorse. Ender, on the other hand, basically devotes his whole life to finding a new home planet for the Hive Queen because of the guilt he feels. He writes books about the Formics and does whatever he can to make sure that everyone knows that they're a good, sentient race just like humans (and he does all that's in his power to save the Pequeninos too). And Shinji just goes into a depression and stuff.

Yeah, so basically what theobject said.

no, i was mostly referring to ender about the aliens.
Shinji mostly thought of them as non-human threats to be killed the entire time.

also reminds me about how much i hated that stupid fucking ending.
caaaaard!