Is Shinji moe: Yes/No? (Please keep it on topic.)

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The Abhorrent
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Postby The Abhorrent » Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:56 am

View Original Postsymbv wrote:Say who??? I watched NGE back in 1995 when it was first run on TV and I cheered for Shinji all along. And I was not alone. Perhaps in the west his kind of character is less tolerated.


To put it simply, Shinji is a very divisive character on this side of the pacific (as is the entire series actually, I hear NGE is almost universally popular in Japan). Some people view him as sympathetic, but quite a few others see him as whiny wimp (the term "emo" gets tossed around a fair bit) who desperately needs a backbone. Due to the nature of this forum, you don't see it as much here.

On occasion, the term "moe" is used (incorrectly) as a generic label for a character someone doesn't like. But again, what is popular in Japan is divisive in North America. Cutesy characters aren't really that well accepted in general, and even bishonen characters get a rather cold reception at times. Long story short, machismo is very prevalent in western society. Compare Tidus (FFX) with Kratos (GoW). Anything which can be labelled as being a wimp is seldom looked at in a positive light, including Shinji.
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Postby juaxoo » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:09 am

i'll tell you the true secret behind Shinji:

Shinji is a 14 year old teenage boy who got abandoned at a very young age following her mother's death, and only valued when other people uses him.

THE END.

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Postby symbv » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:24 am

View Original PostThe Abhorrent wrote:Long story short, machismo is very prevalent in western society.

Anything which can be labelled as being a wimp is seldom looked at in a positive light, including Shinji.


Very well said, The Abhorrent. I believe you summed it up with very good insight from the western point of view. Machismo worship is something I don't really get in the west (particularly America). One thing that turned me away from early shounen mecha anime was the seeming fearlessness of those boys going to have life-and-death encounters with the villains. There was so little doubt or hesitation in them and we were not supposed to expect such thing either as the story would always let them win every single time. In Eva, while I still expected Shinji to overcome his difficulty, I saw a much more realistic depiction of a young boy who was visited by fate to have to pilot a giant robot to face some fearsome enemy. This is why even though occasionally I saw him running away, I still wanted to cheer him on. In fact it made me want to cheer him on even more. In most other anime, the protagonist did not really need me to cheer him on because the scenario and setting basically guaranteed his victory!! Despite the fact that I knew fully well Shinji would not hear me cheering him, I still got the urge to want to give him my support. I would even go as far as saying that those who said he wanted to punch Shinji just because he looked so wimpy did not know shit about what it really meant to be in his situation. And that angry feeling was just a very much misguided and naive kind of attitude.
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Postby Kendrix » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:52 am

View Original Postsymbv wrote:Very well said, The Abhorrent. I believe you summed it up with very good insight from the western point of view. Machismo worship is something I don't really get in the west (particularly America). One thing that turned me away from early shounen mecha anime was the seeming fearlessness of those boys going to have life-and-death encounters with the villains. There was so little doubt or hesitation in them and we were not supposed to expect such thing either as the story would always let them win every single time. In Eva, while I still expected Shinji to overcome his difficulty, I saw a much more realistic depiction of a young boy who was visited by fate to have to pilot a giant robot to face some fearsome enemy. This is why even though occasionally I saw him running away, I still wanted to cheer him on. In fact it made me want to cheer him on even more. In most other anime, the protagonist did not really need me to cheer him on because the scenario and setting basically guaranteed his victory!! Despite the fact that I knew fully well Shinji would not hear me cheering him, I still got the urge to want to give him my support. I would even go as far as saying that those who said he wanted to punch Shinji just because he looked so wimpy did not know shit about what it really meant to be in his situation. And that angry feeling was just a very much misguided and naive kind of attitude.


On the one hand, EVA made me understand why your standard shonen protagonist HAS to be that way - but these heroes are heroes because they're extraordinary.

I don't think it's a problem of machismo - female characters being anything but tough fighters is LESS tolerated, and don't you dare depict being a housewife as a remotely good thing. Honestly, being a housewife is not for me. I wouldn't be able to bear it. But it is nonetheless VERY hard work and some people CAN be happy with it, like, my own mother, for instance, but that very hard work and sacrifice hardly gets any respect anymore.
I think we've grown used to seing extraordinary ppl kick ass on TV so that we take that extraordinaryness for granted and get disapointed with anything less - Shinji is still insanely cool for someone in his circumstances, but he shows a realistic reaction to the stuff that happens to him.
Last edited by Kendrix on Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:54 am

View Original Postsymbv wrote:Machismo worship is something I don't really get in the west (particularly America).


:shrug: I'm an American and I honestly don't get it either. :lol:

Also, I agree with everything you said so far. I cheered for Shinji when I first watching the show. Hell, part of the reason I avoid mecha anime--including Eva at first!--is because I don't find the fearless characters that realistic and it's refreshing to see a "normal" boy put into such circumstances.

I would even go as far as saying that those who said he wanted to punch Shinji just because he looked so wimpy did not know shit about what it really meant to be in his situation. And that angry feeling was just a very much misguided and naive kind of attitude.


Quoted For Truth. :)

Back to the main topic, Shinji does certainly fit into the ショタ萌え Shota-Moe category like you said earlier. It's nice to know what category he fits into. (To clarify, ショタ萌え does not necessarily have to do with ショタコン , correct? However, I'm assuming they both can be interrelated with anime and manga, of course.)
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Postby symbv » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:00 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Back to the main topic, Shinji does certainly fit into the ショタ萌え Shota-Moe category like you said earlier. It's nice to know what category he fits into. (To clarify, ショタ萌え does not necessarily have to do with ショタコン , correct? However, I'm assuming they both can be interrelated with anime and manga, of course.)


The difference is between MOE and CON (as in Complex). MOE (used in the context of Shota-moe) is a feeling that compels you into getting back to the character because that character has such attribute. CON is more like a psychiatric condition that signifies an abnormal level of attachment towards the object, although in anime/manga world CON is often used in a comedic manner (meaning if the character is really showing such behavior in real life he/she may already be sent to see the psychiatrist but it is fully acceptable in the manga/anime world) One may view MOE as a light level of CON, but I tend to see them as different things.

Kendrix wrote:but these heroes are heroes because they're extraordinary.


One reason why I could never relate to superhero (at least in classical sense) depicted in western comics is that they are just so extraordinary and powerful that I didn't really care about what they do. The same could be said when I watched Ultramen or Kamen Rider as a small kid...
Last edited by symbv on Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kendrix » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:18 pm

View Original Postsymbv wrote:One reason why I could never relate to superhero (at least in classical sense) depicted in western comics is that they are just so extraordinary and powerful that I didn't really care about what they do. The same could be said when I watched Ultramen or Kamen Rider as a small kid...


Well, I guess that's personal taste - But I think we agree in the part that Shinji's reaction to the Situation he's in is realistic at worst.

Everyone seems to remember only his EoE-self - He isn't normally like that, he just saw his guardian and love intrest A sink into depression, witnessed the maiming of his best friend and the death of love intrest B, his mentor figure died and the little progress he made towards his father was undone... he had to kill another friend of his... Most ppl would act less than reasonable under that circumstances, expecially if they had a past like Shinji's.
No one seems to remember all he did before EoE - and that he chose life at the end of EoE, despite all these soul-crushing hardships he faced.
I don't think I would've had the streght to do that.
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Postby TehDonutKing » Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:31 pm

@toe mash and kendrix
“Emo” is a genre of music and a style of dress. A person cannot be “emo” as it has nothing to do with the person itself. “Emo” is also neither good nor bad. It simply is.

@The Abbhoreent and symbv
I don't think anyone understands machismo. Since he was already mentioned, I'll give my thoughts on the “badass hero”, Kratos. He's a misogynist, arrogant, smug asshole who kills anyone whose corpse he has a use for, and has no regard for human life. He enjoys pointless bloodshed, and he singlehandedly made the planet uninhabitable, because of a personal vandetta. He has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
And if I got any of that wrong, it's because I've never played the game. Of course, I might of, had the developers leave the gods personalities intact, remembered that it was prophesied that Athena would be the one to kill Zeus, and that the mythological Kratos was completely different.

Ok, I'm through.

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Postby toe mash » Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:03 pm

What's wrong with you people, I just said "emo" because I thought it was funny considering the hair style and it being an anagram of "moe" in case you didn't notice... :um: :um:

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Postby EdmundC » Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:11 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Also, I agree with everything you said so far. I cheered for Shinji when I first watching the show. Hell, part of the reason I avoid mecha anime--including Eva at first!--is because I don't find the fearless characters that realistic and it's refreshing to see a "normal" boy put into such circumstances.


However, it is possible to have a character who pretends fearlessness in order to carry themselves and/or others through a difficult time. Shinji has a catchphrase which on the surface sounds like this - "I mustn't run away, I mustn't run away" - when in reality he often falls into a pit and relies on others to pick him up. He is pretty passive for a protagonist, even in End of Eva.
As for a character who really does pretend fearlessness in order to carry themselves and others, that would be Misato.

To actually reply to the topic's question? In some ways, yes. He has a soft appearance and he occasionally has his moe moments.

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Postby The Abhorrent » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:36 pm

View Original PostTehDonutKing wrote:I don't think anyone understands machismo. Since he was already mentioned, I'll give my thoughts on the “badass hero”, Kratos. He's a misogynist, arrogant, smug asshole who kills anyone whose corpse he has a use for, and has no regard for human life. He enjoys pointless bloodshed, and he singlehandedly made the planet uninhabitable, because of a personal vandetta. He has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.


Which was exactly why I chose him as an example, he really is a colossal jerk. Yet he is considered one of the epitomes of manliness.... for all the wrong reasons. That pretty much is the essence of machismo: an obsession with overflowing masculinity, one which allows stupidity become it's dominant aspect. Kratos did have some redeeming qualities in the first game (a classic example of Greek tragedy), but the sequels effectively ruined any of the positive traits he had in the beginning.

This video gives a good run down on what I mean (SPOILERS!!!!).
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Postby CyberXIII » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:12 am

Kendrix, I think I like you now. Anyone know how to take a snapshot of that post? I wanna record it for posterity.

And I'd love to know what moe actually means. It's used most often these days to mean "cute anime chick with large limpid eyes and weird hair color", and Shinji's a dude, so he doesn't fit.

Off-topic, but since you brought him up....

Kratos isn't nearly as two-dimensional as most people like to think. He's what the original definition of hero would be in Greek mythology: he's a demigod that displays martial courage or excellence. In other words, he's a super-skilled fighter, or badass as we now know. But he isn't the one-dimensional callous monster that most people think of; he was actually a loving husband and fond father years before the events God of War games, and even during them has moments where his better nature shines through.

He loved the Spartan army dearly in GOWII (although he'd never say that out loud) and in GOWIII Pandora became like a second daughter to him in the short time he knew her. He liked her so much that he was willing to save her life as opposed to just sacrificing her to kill Zeus (remember, revenge against Zeus was all that Kratos had left by the end of God of War II). And don't get me started on the heartwarming moments he has with his brother Deimos and his daughter Calliope. He even gives up living happily forever in the Elysium Fields (Greek heaven) in order to save her and the planet from Atlas and Persephone. That's right, the "misogynist, arrogant, smug asshole who kills anyone whose corpse he has a use for, and has no regard for human life" damned his own soul forever in order to save the entire world.

The problem is that the Kratos we know of nowadays is the bitter, broken shell of a man that was left after all the suffering he went through. Much like Gendo Ikari, he's become a selfish, arrogant jackass that doesn't care about humanity anymore because he's been hurt too badly to care about others. People demonize them both (I'm guilty of this concerning Gendo and freely admit it) but the truth is that they're both sympathetic characters. Despite what we say about them, they're not monsters...they're human.

That's off-topic, but I had to say something.
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Postby symbv » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:18 am

View Original PostCyberXIII wrote:And I'd love to know what moe actually means. It's used most often these days to mean "cute anime chick with large limpid eyes and weird hair color", and Shinji's a dude, so he doesn't fit.


That definition is used most often in the west and it was the WRONG WRONG WRONG definition.

There was a thread on MOE definition
http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=11021

If it is too long to you, then you can check this one post in the thread
http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?p=441614#441614
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Postby TehDonutKing » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:10 pm

Kratos destroyed the world. That much is clear. And back to my main complaint, Persephone is completely out of character.
I guess we should either start a new thread, or shut up, though.

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Postby CyberXIII » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:29 pm

Sadly, yes, although I'd love to discuss Kratos's moral ambiguity and its paralells to Gendo. But here we're talking about Shinji being moe.

Looking at that definition you linked to, I think this is one of those ambiguous subjective questions that doesn't really have a concrete answer. Like most things concerning NGE. To summarize, Moe was "budding passion towards a character that makes you want to adore them and keep them by your side." If that's what it's supposed to mean, then it's subjective and based on whether or not you find Shinji attractive. Not sexually (although that may play a role depending on your preferences), but rather Shinji's character and personality endearing to you.

Obviously if that's true then we'll never have a clear answer.
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Postby symbv » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:56 pm

View Original PostCyberXIII wrote:Looking at that definition you linked to, I think this is one of those ambiguous subjective questions that doesn't really have a concrete answer. Like most things concerning NGE. To summarize, Moe was "budding passion towards a character that makes you want to adore them and keep them by your side." If that's what it's supposed to mean, then it's subjective and based on whether or not you find Shinji attractive. Not sexually (although that may play a role depending on your preferences), but rather Shinji's character and personality endearing to you.

Obviously if that's true then we'll never have a clear answer.


MOE is a feeling that is necessarily subjective which is just like whether you find a character lovable or cute - they are subjective too. But at least the word has a concrete meaning as used among Japanese fans. The word has since seen its use expanded beyond characters, so now in Japan we can hear people say they are "moe" towards mecha figures for example.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:41 pm

I don't see how he could fail to be moe, as he fits Xard's description of the phenomenon to a T. I don't know if the otaku community generally considers him to be such, though.

View Original PostXard wrote: As for me, Shinji is mostly pitiful


Is that not a standard moe trigger?

View Original Postsymbv wrote:Reading this thread seems to me that most people here don't know what they are talking about. I guess MOE definition is still confusing people.

If Shinji is any moe, the most obvious moe trigger is ショタ萌え Shota-Moe. A moe that is for a feminine kind of boy that would not look out of place even if you dress him in girl clothes. As the hubando article said, Shinji can cook, can play cello, speak and walk softly most of the time. This is where he will be viewed with moe feeling.


That certainly fits IMO.

Like Asuka, some may want to claim Shinji has a broken/damaged mind moe. This is fine but I want to say that this is not where the usual MOE feeling comes from for most anime fans here in Japan. That is a kind of more advanced type of moe attribute.


Is it? I was not aware. Good to know my moe triggers are sophisticated. :grin:

View Original Postsymbv wrote:Say who??? I watched NGE back in 1995 when it was first run on TV and I cheered for Shinji all along. And I was not alone. Perhaps in the west his kind of character is less tolerated.


I agree. The dislike of Shinji is greatly exaggerated IME, and even then only wrt EoE. People liked him fine during the series because he actually did stuff. Even Tines and NemZ like series Shinji alright.

View Original Postsymbv wrote:The difference is between MOE and CON (as in Complex). MOE (used in the context of Shota-moe) is a feeling that compels you into getting back to the character because that character has such attribute. CON is more like a psychiatric condition that signifies an abnormal level of attachment towards the object, although in anime/manga world CON is often used in a comedic manner (meaning if the character is really showing such behavior in real life he/she may already be sent to see the psychiatrist but it is fully acceptable in the manga/anime world) One may view MOE as a light level of CON, but I tend to see them as different things.


Dude, we gotta get you to do a thread or a page or something where you lay all of this out in detail. Xard's post was a good start, but you seem to have a grasp of the nitty gritty of the term that goes far beyond that. Please consider it, as a public service if nothing else!

And Kendrix, I generally disagree with you on principle but I agree that was an awesome post.
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Postby Combs » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:39 am

Could Shinji pass up as Moe? Yes, considering his father enjoyed a few rapacious barfights, It's likely natural for Ikaris to flock to the pub for a drink or two. You could extend that role to bartender for sure! :ninja:
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Postby BornIn1142 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:59 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I don't see how he could fail to be moe, as he fits Xard's description of the phenomenon to a T. I don't know if the otaku community generally considers him to be such, though.


The way I see it, being female automatically adds +50 moe points to a character. The basics are there in Shinji, but the public consciousness mostly doesn't really pick up on them.
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Postby Kodaemon » Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:17 am

Rei is as moe as humanly (clonely?) possible, right? And she's moe for Shinji. Ergo, Shinji is moe.
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