Moments where you hated characters you usually like

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:09 pm

View Original PostBorn of Lilith wrote:That was right after Gendo suffered excruciating burns to save Rei. VERY justified.


Understandable, yes. Justified, no.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Born of Lilith » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:56 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Understandable, yes. Justified, no.


Maybe, but VERY understandable at that. I mean, that's a pretty big expression of love, especially for someone who's clearly been treated like a lab rat for the majority of her life, AND coming from Gendo the asshole. Plus he's kind of a father figure to her. Shinji's frustration with/hatred of him is also more than understandable, but I don't think Rei knew about any of the shit Gendo put Shinji through.
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Postby esselfortium » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:02 am

Honestly it's not as though Gendo was much more pleasant to Rei on a typical day.

I mean, he's the one responsible for her being treated like a "lab rat" as you say...

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Postby Born of Lilith » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:43 am

That's my point: seeing that he clearly DOES care about her despite being a jerkass to her and everyone else most of the time (along with her not receiving much TLC in general) was what left such an impression on her and why she was so sensitive to Shinji's comment on Gendo. Not that being treated badly by someone keeps the Children from thinking highly of the person who treated them badly... I mean, look at how little Asuka backed down in light of Kaji's rejection, and how Shinji, despite "hating" Gendo, is still highly affected by his praise and disappointment (I mean hell, trying to earn Gendo's approval is one of his prime motives in piloting Eva).
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:18 am

When Rei smiled in ep. 6.

Seriously, it's the cheesiest moment in the series... you all know I'm right.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:48 am

View Original PostEva Yojimbo wrote:When Rei smiled in ep. 6.

Seriously, it's the cheesiest moment in the series... you all know I'm right.


I think Ep. 9 gave it several runs for its money, actually, but I didn't really hate any of it.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:03 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I think Ep. 9 gave it several runs for its money, actually, but I didn't really hate any of it.
Ep. 9 was cheesy in an appealing way because it was trying to be funny and then it NAILS you with that almost-kiss, but ep. 6 the cheesiness was saved up for the moment that's actually supposed to be emotional.
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We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Xard » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:21 am

>bashing heartwarming smile in ep 6
>not bashing Shinji being whiny, selfish bitch 24/7


oh jimbo...
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:29 am

View Original PostXard wrote:>bashing heartwarming smile in ep 6
>not bashing Shinji being whiny, selfish bitch 24/7


oh jimbo...
Heartwarming = nauseating, and Shinji being a whiny, selfish bitch is akin to saying Shinji's being Shinji.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Xard » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:35 am

View Original PostEva Yojimbo wrote:Heartwarming = nauseating


it utterly confounds me what the hell could possibly be nauseating about that scene. It's one of the few sweet moments in the whole mess of a show.

View Original PostEva Yojimbo wrote:and Shinji being a whiny, selfish bitch is akin to saying Shinji's being Shinji.


Which would mean hating on Shinji all the time is entirely justified. Why don't you do that then?
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:41 am

View Original PostXard wrote:it utterly confounds me what the hell could possibly be nauseating about that scene. It's one of the few sweet moments in the whole mess of a show.
Sweet is often equated with saccharine, which is often equated with being nauseating, ergo "so sweet it's nauseating/sickening".

View Original PostXard wrote:Which would mean hating on Shinji all the time is entirely justified.
How so? That's how the character was intended to be. Rei wasn't meant to be a vending machine of sweetness. Besides, wasn't it you who said that after that ep. Rei didn't really get any development until near the end? I think what bothers me about ep. 6 is that it feels like the end of a character arc that just began, and it ends on such a maudlin note that's left more of a bad taste in my mouth than anything in NGE's first half.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Xard » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:51 am

View Original PostEva Yojimbo wrote:Sweet is often equated with saccharine, which is often equated with being nauseating, ergo "so sweet it's nauseating/sickening".


Meh. Well that's a different case then.

View Original PostEva Yojimbo wrote:How so? That's how the character was intended to be. Rei wasn't meant to be a vending machine of sweetness. Besides, wasn't it you who said that after that ep. Rei didn't really get any development until near the end? I think what bothers me about ep. 6 is that it feels like the end of a character arc that just began, and it ends on such a maudlin note that's left more of a bad taste in my mouth than anything in NGE's first half.


Evangelion has godawfully shitty, aimless narrative so what would you expect :shrug:

They could've ended show at ep 6. Nothing of value is added afterwards
Last edited by Xard on Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Allemann » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:54 am

Rei's smile in ep. 6 is one of the best moments in the show, as it shows there's a glimmer of hope in humanity. Anno hates humans in general, so he didn't develop that strand but went on with his crypto-nihilism until the very end.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:59 am

View Original PostXard wrote:Evangelion has godawfully shitty, aimless narrative so what would you expect
Except... that it doesn't. The entire first is remarkably precise in how it unfolds, devoting at least one ep. to each of the main characters and establishing/developing the relationships, motifs, themes, etc. I think ep. 6 is the only instance where Anno kinda painted himself into a corner with regard to Rei, because where do you take the character after that? It's akin to those TV shows where so many eps. are predicated on the guy getting the girl or vice-versa, and then having that happen in, like, ep. 6 is just to leave you with a "well what the fuck do we do now"? At least NGE had a huge cast to focus on, and I rather like that Rei remains more in the background until the end. It feeds into the whole mysterious thing anyway. In fact, maybe I also kinda dislike Rei's smile because it DOES kinda violate that whole mysterious air about her.

I dunno, it's just too much, too soon.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Xard » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:04 am

View Original PostEva Yojimbo wrote:"well what the fuck do we do now"?


Depending on what one sees as aim of Eva's narrative/resolution of the narrative tension Eva should've ended at one of these spots:

Ep 6
Ep 12

or at latest

Ep 20

Personally speaking I'd say Eva's narrative goes bankcrupt after ep 12 and nothing of value is added afterwards to its main themes. It just goes around and around and around and around in endless circles, never reaching any sort of new resolution or solution. All of Eva's drama stems from Shinji's inability to grow the fuck up. As Oshii put it, such drama is no real, valuable drama at all and after he has grown up the story is practically done. Only way to continue is to reduce the growth and try to achieve same spot again, which is what eva is forced to do all the time later on

And the cycle continues with Rebuild. Except this time around the narrative is actually properly developed!
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:18 am

View Original PostXard wrote:Evangelion has godawfully shitty, aimless narrative so what would you expect :shrug:

They could've ended show at ep 6. Nothing of value is added afterwards


Oh, come on man. You're not even trying now.

@Jimbo: I think you're going too far here. Rei's smile is saccharine, yes, but it's another example of her lacking the tools to deal with social situations. It would have meant more if her character arc wasn't gutted once Asuka came on the scene, of course.

IOW it's relevant and appropriate even if it is a bit saccharine (and I didn't find it all that cheesy or nauseating, to be honest; just kinda obvious in a meta sense, but effective enough that I didn't really mind).

Edit:
On the narrative: two steps forward, one to three steps back is the name of the game. It repeats for a reason. Life doesn't stop just because you do something right.

On getting the girl: once you get her you have to live with her. This is just as interesting as the chase, but for different reasons. Most shows don't have enough material to transition from one to the other (i.e., the characters suck and only work in a narrow context), but if they do have that depth you can successfully make the transition.

Of course Rei doesn't really have that much to work with, which is why Asuka shows up two episodes down the road.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:29 am

View Original PostXard wrote:Personally speaking I'd say Eva's narrative goes bankcrupt after ep 12 and nothing of value is added afterwards to its main themes.
Yeah, yeah, both you and Merri have argued this and every time I read it I find it more and more absurd. You guys have silly ideas about what constitutes all of the terms you use in these arguments. So NGE's drama stems from Shinji's "inability to grow up", so what? I also think that's an incredibly reductive-to-the-point-of-distortion take on the narrative, as if nothing else is happening. As if there isn't drama produced by all the lingering mysteries and the truth behind Asuka/Rei/Shinji's past and the conflict between what they really want/desire and what they think they should be doing and as if "growing up" is even REALLY Shinji's problem. Shinji's problem isn't "growing up", it's figuring out how to alter this cognitive bias that was planted in his mind from an incredibly young age. The narrative drama doesn't end with Shinji growing up, it ends with him realizing that the world and himself doesn't have to be how he's convinced himself it is.

Bagheera wrote:@Jimbo: I think you're going too far here. Rei's smile is saccharine, yes, but it's another example of her lacking the tools to deal with social situations.
I think the series had already established her lacking tools to deal with social situations without resorting to something fundamentally manipulative and obvious. As for getting the girl/living with the girl, I don't know if it's really possible to get over that "hump". When you get over it you've essentially altered the central conflict that's always driven the show. I really can't think of any TV series that ever pulled that off well.
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^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:00 am

View Original PostEva Yojimbo wrote:I think the series had already established her lacking tools to deal with social situations without resorting to something fundamentally manipulative and obvious.


As with Shinji it's a point that bears repeating. It's also the first time we see her actively trying to address it, which is important.

As for getting the girl/living with the girl, I don't know if it's really possible to get over that "hump". When you get over it you've essentially altered the central conflict that's always driven the show. I really can't think of any TV series that ever pulled that off well.


That's because most shows make the chase the central plot, instead of making it a side plot to other, more important things. So long as the show isn't about the chase the transition can work just fine. Look at Friends, for example. I'll never defend the show, but it has multiple examples of chase-relationship transitions and they didn't seem to hurt its success much.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:04 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:Eva should've ended at one of these spots:
Ep 6
Ep 12
or at latest
Ep 20
Apart from the fact that the real plot as introduced in episode 2 is still hanging, even if the little foreground distractions ebb and flow.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:43 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:Personally speaking I'd say Eva's narrative goes bankcrupt after ep 12 and nothing of value is added afterwards to its main themes. It just goes around and around and around and around in endless circles, never reaching any sort of new resolution or solution. (snip)

The sorts of situations where you go "round and round in circles" without achieving resolutions are part of the human condition and help make NGE the brutally honest work it is. Or am I missing something here?


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