3I: Why bother...?

[Sheena]

Both Seele and the Angels want to initiate Third Impact, right?
The Angels want to reunite with Adam, this would then eliminate all Lilith-based life on the planet, from bacteria to humans…
Seele wants to reach Instumentality, which means that all humans would be transformed into one big organism, so that there would be no suffering, pain, sadness anymore.

But wait- if everything was one, there would be no individuality, no "self" any longer and thus, also no such feelings as joy… Just one big sea of LCL.

So, what's the big difference? Being killed or just being primeval soup… where's the big difference?
As I see it, 3I is, in any case, nothing more than erasing mankind from earth, since a big sea of LCL can't be called "human" anymore.
Where is the difference… being killed or just being transformed into soup, unable to realise ones own existenence?
So, why does SEELE actually care? Why not just let the Angels do what they want- since the the result would be the same?
If the Angels succeeded and erased all life on earth, there would be ALSO no feeling as loneliness and such.
The death of all beings would also solve all problems of humanity.
Why do they need their own, complicated scenario then?
Actually, what is their goal, really? What will they gain by transfoming everyone, including theirselves, into a giant sea of LCL?
To me, they don't seem like nice people who just want everybodys problems to be solved… I don't think they are unselfish, just wanting to "help" humanity out of it's misery.
So, what would they achieve, except for that? Money? Power? Reputation? NOOOOOOO They wouldn't, because an ocean of LCL can't give you any of these!

So, why doesn't SEELE just lean back and watch the Angels destroying the NERV HQ…? Or, maybe they could manipulate Nerv a bit, making it easier for the Angels…

Is it all just because of the dead sea scrolls…? Is it sooo important to follow their scenario, when, actually, the effects and results are kinda the same…?
Did I get something wrong? But to me, the Angel's and Seele's versions of 3I seem quite similar…

[Xard]

presumably they wouldn't unite with "God" and shit

fuck if I know. Obviously for all purposes the final state is similar but SEELE did believe they'd reach "purer" form of existence whereas Angel impact would simply lead to nonexistence

Hey, that's SEELE for you. Even Gendo called them on their bullshit but..whatever

(inb4 our local EoTV was UPLOAD END crew strikes in)

[Eva Yojimbo]

The Angels' version would wipe out all Lilim life, while Seele's 3I is just the prelude to initiating Instrumentality, which is joining as one inside Lilith, different than floating around in an LCL soup, which I interpret as being a kind of limbo between origin state and individuality.

[Xard]

The Angels' version would wipe out all Lilim life, while Seele's 3I is just the prelude to initiating Instrumentality, which is joining as one inside Lilith, different than floating around in an LCL soup, which I interpret as being a kind of limbo between origin state and individuality.

I knew I forgot something

[thewayneiac]

There is no difference; this is why Shinji rejects Instrumentality. The Eva definition of self is "we are defined by our relationships with others". In the absense of others there can be no "self". Therefore Instrumentality is the same as death/non-existence.

[Xard]

There is no difference; this is why Shinji rejects Instrumentality. The Eva definition of self is "we are defined by our relationships with others". In the absense of others there can be no "self". Therefore Instrumentality is the same as death/non-existence.

Well yes, exactly. That's why SEELE is being delusional. Their delusion however is that there's some difference here.

[Eva Yojimbo]

There is no difference;

Where's the SAUCE that there's no difference in being a disembodied soul floating around in LCL and being a soul joined with all other souls inside Lilith?

[NemZ]

I rather disagree. What one needs to recognize one's own self as an individual is merely an environment of some sort that they can recognize as other, not necessarily other people.

[Reichu]

Where's the SAUCE that there's no difference in being a disembodied soul floating around in LCL and being a soul joined with all other souls inside Lilith?

Some dead philosopher.

I rather disagree. What one needs to recognize one's own self as an individual is merely an environment of some sort that they can recognize as other, not necessarily other people.

"Individual" identity, as I understand it, is usually in opposition to group identity. Without a backdrop of similar beings, individuality doesn't seem to have much meaning in the sense being discussed. I sense great potential for hair-splitting here.

If someone lived their entire life in complete isolation from other human beings, or any other social creature, would their sense of self be affected? I'm not sure such a scenario has ever occurred, and it's too unethical to conduct under controlled settings in most countries, so ... hmm. But basically, if you exist in a world where there is only "me" and "other", but not "other like me", the concept of "individual" seems unlikely to arise, since there is no group from which "me" much be differentiated as an "individual".

[Eva Yojimbo]

Some dead philosopher.

Did I miss where thewayneiac transformed into Xard and Allemann?

[NemZ]

"Individual" identity, as I understand it, is usually in opposition to group identity.

On the contrary, again, the ability to recognize a border between self and not-self is all you really need. That said, even the basic awareness of numbers (even without words but merely concepts like this, those, lots) should be sufficient to recognize one's self as individual and unique.

I don't see the big deal in shifting to a colony perspective anyway. It's not like we aren't all colonies right now of billions of different living cells along with massive sympathetic ecosystems living on and within us that are crucial for survival. Presumably the emergent colony-self would be an entirely new being with little to no reason to care about it's constituent parts with any more consideration than we give individual cells.

[shito]

So, what would they achieve, except for that? Money? Power? Reputation?

They already have all that, most probably.
IIRC, the CI defines Seele as some kind of illuminati sect, they already rule the human world.
They know it's impossible for humans to get better than they already are, going into space resulted into just finding a big black void full of nothingness, at least for what's the human mind capable of understanding.
They found a way to get one step further and do the next thing.
All of Seele members have probably tested it all: Money, Power, wild orgies, drugs, etc, etc... what's next?

The Overlords in Childhood's End kind of felt jealous of humanity, because they couldn't evolve into one big supermind (lcl sea) being.

[AshPhoenix]

The Overlords in Childhood's End kind of felt jealous of humanity, because they couldn't evolve into one big supermind (lcl sea) being.

That's it. The Overlords felt that the Overmind was an all-powerful, all-knowing being, and that's probably what Seele wanted too. It seems to me like they weren't satisfied with physical power, and wanted to experience what they thought would be true "mental" power by unifying with all other humans. Their little choruses where they all speak together also hint at their intentions (in EoE especially): there's a lot of stuff talking about "revelation" and "returning humanity to its true form", stating that Seele feels that physical bodies are of no value, and that humans can only be perfect when merged with all other humans.

[Xard]

The thing is SEELE wanted to unite everything as one, believing it would be higher form of existence. Angel Impact would've denied that possibility.

Gendo called them on the indifference between Instrumentality and Death in beginning of EoE, too. So yes, while for individual Seele's 3rd Impact and Angel Impact wiping all human life away wouldn't have been different in their beliefs and Dogma there was big difference: they would return humanity to its original, sinless state in contiinum with God (Lilith)

So while from thematic and narrative pov "death" is end result of both Impacts in SEELE's own, internal logic there was world of difference.

That is all.

[AshPhoenix]

That is all.

Thank you for gracing us with your great words of wisdom, O Xard-sama.

[Mr. Tines]

The thing is SEELE wanted to unite everything as one, believing it would be higher form of existence. Angel Impact would've denied that possibility.

Their own words suggest more to me that SEELE is after some sort of re-boot and do-over for Lilith based life, rather than pushing forwards over a hump.

[AshPhoenix]

That implies that Seele thought that humanity was already at its evolutionary peak, which goes against the purpose of 3I and Instrumentality. Or are you saying that Seele simply wanted Lilith-based life to take a different evolutionary path as opposed to having physical forms?

[Xard]

Their own words suggest more to me that SEELE is after some sort of re-boot and do-over for Lilith based life, rather than pushing forwards over a hump.

Well, for them the initial stage was the best (purifying Earth of "origin sin" and whatnot by joining all together in one happy "hivemind") :P

I guess CI quotes could be thrown in here for good measure

D. In-Depth Information

Upon acquiring the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls, Seele turned once again to a creed that, up to that point, they had considered naught but the pipe dreams of their ancestors. By putting the miracle of divinity, in the form of prophecy, within their sights, they restored the faith. Their dogma is the Path to Adam Kadmon — that is, the approaching of a divinity both ageless and undying.

D. In-Depth Information

While the Angels were being engaged in battle, people were also making and advancing the plan for the path that leads to divinity.

The first step is the completion of Eva — the body of a god and throne of a soul — via the installation of an S² Engine. The interfusion of souls follows. Afterward, our final natural enemy, the Spear of Longinus security device, is annihilated. Thus, that which is nearly divine, or perhaps a god in and of itself, is brought to completion, and, with the Spear gone, cannot be destroyed by anyone.

Seele's intention for this man-made god is to guide the elite (themselves) to state near that of God's.

Of course there's something truly Eastern indeed in the conception of "God" here, transcending the world of dualisms.

In any case plans like these obviously point why Angel Impact was no go. No ascension in that case!

[Mr. Tines]

Misato's discoveries about what is going on include the suggestion that humanity has reached some limit to its evolution; and the SEELE rhetoric is about returning to original states, death and rebirth.

[Xard]

Misato's discoveries about what is going on include the suggestion that humanity has reached some limit to its evolution; and the SEELE rhetoric is about returning to original states, death and rebirth.

ahhh oh yeah, no disagreement about that. SEELE believed through death they would "born" into this happy joyous divine hivemind entity. Gendo of course told them that death creates nothing so...

Then of course there's the whole "end of evolution is death" card too that was flashed ages ago in series before EoE...so it's not like the "reaching peak of evolution" and "death/reset button" are incompatible