Mari/Kaji, IPEA/Nerv (was: Eva-05's plug thingy)

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

Moderators: New Moderators, Board Staff

SEELE-01
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 1792
Joined: Dec 30, 2009
Location: Guess...
Gender: Male
Contact:

Mari/Kaji, IPEA/Nerv (was: Eva-05's plug thingy)

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby SEELE-01 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:19 pm

So... We were discussing the (un)use of the Entry Plug parachutes when Eva 05 was brought up. Then I remembered noticing this:

Image
Just above the Entry Plug there is a plane of some sort...
Not sure?
Look at it from the back:
Image
When Mari exits from Eva 05 (right after the angel's core explodes) you can clearly see the engines working...
At the very least it helps in the event of expulsion to give an extra propulsion...
Then again, why would the normal propulsion not be enough?
Was Eva 05 always ment to self-destruct?
Was it always goint to be a "Provisional Unit"?
Visit my Eva-figures blog, Youtube channel and Twitter

Jornophelanthas
Matarael
Matarael
Posts: 586
Joined: Dec 24, 2010
Location: Europe
Gender: Male

Re: The Entry Plug's plane on Eva-05 (and what it may imply)

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Jornophelanthas » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:25 pm

View Original Postarael wrote:Was Eva 05 always ment to self-destruct?
Was it always goint to be a "Provisional Unit"?


In my opinion, these are the most interesting questions here. I'll take a stab at answering these.

The answer is probably yes to both questions. Apparently, both SEELE and NERV want to create a "god" by using Evangelions. It is clear by now that SEELE wants to use Unit-06, as a "true god", while Gendo wants to have Unit-01 achieve "god" status (as a "false god").

(Aside: What is meant by "true" or "false" "gods" is unclear at this moment. Right now, a number of cryptic conversations between Gendo, Fuyutsuki and SEELE, the scenes on the moon and the climax of Rebuild 2.0 are all the clues we have.)

This means that the other Evangelions are only meant as prototypes (Unit-00), and for fighting Angels (Units 02, 03, and 04 - and Unit-01 too as far as SEELE is concerned.) And NERV was never supposed to know about Unit-06 anyway.

So where does this leave Unit-05? Its sole purpose was probably to guard the captive Third Angel, and to prevent it from escaping. This can be seen because its power supply is tied to the facility where the combat takes place, so it could not venture outside. The self-destruct option is also probably meant as a last resort, to take out the Third Angel if it can't be defeated.

What happens at the start of Rebuild 2.0, however, looks like a setup. Unit-05's structural integrity appears to be deliberately sabotaged, and the self-destruct goes off unneeded. We don't know any true facts, but we do have clues:

- Kaji was there.
- Kaji and Mari are working together, and they use each other as a pawn for their own ends.
- Gendo seemed pleased with the outcome.

My guess is that Kaji and Gendo both wanted both the 3rd Angel and Unit-05 destroyed, each for their own reasons.
1. What's in it for Gendo?
- Gendo wants to destroy the Angels as soon as possible, because eventually every Angel is drawn to Tokyo-3, where he keeps all his stuff. That it can be done without risking Rei or Unit-01 is good for him.
- The European organisation was doing research on the Angel, which could have resulted in technology that NERV would have no access to, while SEELE did. Gendo secretly opposes SEELE, and wants to take away their advantage.
- Unit-05 is a competitor for Unit-01 in attaining "god" status, and Gendo had no direct control over it. He did not know about Unit-06 yet, so Unit-05 was a possible contender for SEELE's "god".

2. What's in it for Kaji?
- We don't know much about what Kaji wants, except for one thing:
Mari was the designated pilot of Unit-05 and was meant to be killed, along with 3rd Angel and Unit-05. But she survived without anyone knowing about it. (The entire base was blown up. Even if anyone survived, the place is a mess and it would be no surprise that her body was never found.) So, Kaji got his very own private Evangelion pilot, to be used in future plots.
- And that's all we know.

3. What's in it for Mari?
- The girl wants to pilot, and presumably to live, too. Kaji likely offered her a chance to live to pilot an Evangelion again, because they likely both knew that Unit-05 would only ever have one battle. (And if Mari didn't, Kaji told her.)
- Besides, Mari probably liked the chance to destroy an Angel.
- And Mari also has an agenda of her own. For all we know, she could be working for another organisation (that Kaji does not belong to), or she could be in it entirely for herself.

In conclusion, I claim that Unit-05 and the 3rd Angel were meant to both be destroyed, alongside the base itself. This was planned either by Kaji and Gendo together, or by Kaji alone with Gendo's approval. Mari got her way too by going along with Kaji, for the time being.

P.S. I think I had a brainwave concerning Kaji's motives. But that deserves its own thread. Hopefully later this week.

SEELE-01
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 1792
Joined: Dec 30, 2009
Location: Guess...
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: The Entry Plug's plane on Eva-05 (and what it may imply)

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby SEELE-01 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:16 pm

View Original PostJornophelanthas wrote:For all we know, she could be working for another organisation (that Kaji does not belong to), or she could be in it entirely for herself.


I think we can discard that she's in for herself, let us remember that she hijacked an Eva.
Whut?
An EVANGELION for crying out loud!
That translates into our world as if anyone could launch nuclear missiles!
Either she is one hell of a spy or there are severe security breaches in NERV...

Now, she had a second plugsuit made, that means someone took measures of her boobs and stuff and made it, 'cuz I don't think that you can buy an Evangelion plugsuit in every 7-Eleven...

Now I don't think she's taken as dead, when the Key of Nabukedane-thingie is given to Gendo, Kaji sais that the project in Bethany base had been stopped; not that the base was destroyed...
And if she's dead and nobody rescued the Entry Plug, how in the world she went, well, anywhere?
Firm land I mean...
Visit my Eva-figures blog, Youtube channel and Twitter

die-yng
Tunniel
User avatar
Posts: 173
Joined: Dec 28, 2010
Location: near Mannheim & Heide
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby die-yng » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:37 pm

I stiil think it's more interesting that she even managed to control Unit 02.
With Kyoko's soul in it, she shouldn't have been able to.

So is there no part of Kyoko in 02 this time.

As for association, I wouldn't go and make an assumption, that she's working with Kaji.

Right now to me it seems, she is maybe working for the european union or Great Britain.
Just like the US wanted o do it their own way in NGE, why wouldn't Europe (or Britain) play it's own game in Rebuild?
"Asuka groaned, palming her face. "First? That's a bagel."
"You're supposed to eat it," Shinji assisted.
Rei looked at them, then back to Ikari-kun, taking in the surprising revelation. Cautiously, she placed her lips around the item in her hand and took a small bite. Wide-eyed, she beheld the bagel with a new reverence.
"You are delicious, Ikari-kun.""
Lucretius and Essel Present: NGE: The Cutting Room Floor

[url]http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=9090&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0[/url]

Kendrix
Defender of Puppy Boy
Defender of Puppy Boy
User avatar
Age: 25
Posts: 5086
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: Germany
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Kendrix » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:51 pm

Someone would have to put the plane thing there. It would take some technicians to do so, there's no way Mari and Kaji could just lift a plane and stick it on an EVA for their secret agenda and expect that no one notices.

I think what actually hapened is that the auto-eject system of EVA 05 wasn't fully functional yet/could eject the flug but not in a way that it would fly out of the EVA. EVA 05 was only half ready, they had to make do with cybernectic parts.
It doesn't seem to far-fetched that they'd use the rocket thing instead of a proper eject system because said eject sistem wasn't built in time and other fuctions had priority (Angels aren't exactly docile house pets, you gotta be prepared for them Escaping.)
Make Clone Love Not Clone War

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Posts: 23531
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Lost in Bat Country
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:36 pm

die-yng wrote:I stiil think it's more interesting that she even managed to control Unit 02.
With Kyoko's soul in it, she shouldn't have been able to.

So is there no part of Kyoko in 02 this time.

Not necessarily. Background jabber when Mari is getting ready to enter Eva-02 (from Eva 2.0 CRC):

??: Final safety systems have been disabled. Removal of all restraining gear is now complete.
??: Entry plug currently moving into position. Thirty seconds to insertion lock position.
??: Core unit automatic reconfiguration sequence has begun.
??: Rewriting access key. The new designated pilot will be registered as Mari Makinami-Illustrious, pass code zero five.
??: Two minutes forty seconds until activation program start.

These appear to be IPEA technicians talking. (Nerv doesn't know anything about Eva-02 getting the go to launch.)

SEELE-01
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 1792
Joined: Dec 30, 2009
Location: Guess...
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby SEELE-01 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:47 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Not necessarily. Background jabber when Mari is getting ready to enter Eva-02 (from Eva 2.0 CRC):

??: Final safety systems have been disabled. Removal of all restraining gear is now complete.
??: Entry plug currently moving into position. Thirty seconds to insertion lock position.
??: Core unit automatic reconfiguration sequence has begun.
??: Rewriting access key. The new designated pilot will be registered as Mari Makinami-Illustrious, pass code zero five.
??: Two minutes forty seconds until activation program start.

These appear to be IPEA technicians talking. (Nerv doesn't know anything about Eva-02 getting the go to launch.)


I had never noticed the voices were in english!

But then again, Mari's plugsuit is different...
Could it be that it may aid a pilot into using a different Eva?
It also reads "the new designated pilot"... Maybe Mari's mom was placed in with a new core...

Mari knew that the Beast mode was there, so she may be working for someone who at least, had hands in the Eva's build...
Visit my Eva-figures blog, Youtube channel and Twitter

NAveryW
Insect Politician
Insect Politician
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 5063
Joined: Dec 21, 2006

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby NAveryW » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:21 pm

A lot of this has been discussed in the Mari thread.
"Today?... hmm... today... right... Um... I'm just gonna wing it." -Guess who

Electric Sachiel
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Posts: 1028
Joined: Nov 27, 2008
Location: Toronto

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Electric Sachiel » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:47 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Not necessarily. Background jabber when Mari is getting ready to enter Eva-02 (from Eva 2.0 CRC):

??: Final safety systems have been disabled. Removal of all restraining gear is now complete.
??: Entry plug currently moving into position. Thirty seconds to insertion lock position.
??: Core unit automatic reconfiguration sequence has begun.
??: Rewriting access key. The new designated pilot will be registered as Mari Makinami-Illustrious, pass code zero five.
??: Two minutes forty seconds until activation program start.

These appear to be IPEA technicians talking. (Nerv doesn't know anything about Eva-02 getting the go to launch.)


What the....!!? What is this? This implies then that there are renegade factions of engineers based in NERV on behalf of IPEA that actually have the power to launch Evas without NERV HQ's permission?

Ok.....News to me if true..... And is it safe to say at this point that IPEA is an organization controlled by SEELE? Or is it seperate from either NERV or SEELE control? Either way i wonder if those IPEA technicians later get interred for questioning via torture and are later executed?

SEELE-01
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 1792
Joined: Dec 30, 2009
Location: Guess...
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby SEELE-01 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:32 pm

Then again... Ain't SEELE controlling everything from the dark?
Visit my Eva-figures blog, Youtube channel and Twitter

Jornophelanthas
Matarael
Matarael
Posts: 586
Joined: Dec 24, 2010
Location: Europe
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Jornophelanthas » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:27 am

View Original Postarael wrote:I think we can discard that she's in for herself, let us remember that she hijacked an Eva.
Whut?
An EVANGELION for crying out loud!
That translates into our world as if anyone could launch nuclear missiles!
Either she is one hell of a spy or there are severe security breaches in NERV...

Or Kaji is giving her all this access and equipment, and Mari has an agenda of her own (or could be working for a fourth party - not SEELE, Gendo, or Kaji).

View Original Postdie-yng wrote:I stiil think it's more interesting that she even managed to control Unit 02.
With Kyoko's soul in it, she shouldn't have been able to.

So is there no part of Kyoko in 02 this time.

View Original Postarael wrote:It also reads "the new designated pilot"... Maybe Mari's mom was placed in with a new core...

There is no indication that Kyoko Zeppelin Soryu even exists in Rebuild. Asuka is not named "Soryu", after all. Furthermore, we have no clear indication that there is any tampering with pilots' mothers' souls inside Evangelions either. We only have the link between Yui and Unit-01, but Unit-01 has always been a different story from the other Evangelions, and Unit-01 does not seem as strong-willed and "berserker-prone" as in the original NGE.

View Original PostElectric Sachiel wrote:What the....!!? What is this? This implies then that there are renegade factions of engineers based in NERV on behalf of IPEA that actually have the power to launch Evas without NERV HQ's permission?

Ok.....News to me if true..... And is it safe to say at this point that IPEA is an organization controlled by SEELE? Or is it seperate from either NERV or SEELE control? Either way i wonder if those IPEA technicians later get interred for questioning via torture and are later executed?

What it looks like is that NERV (in Japan) and IPEA (in Europe) are both organizations controlled by SEELE, with probably a third organization active in the US that built Units 03 and 04. Because Gendo wants to use NERV for his own ends, rather than SEELE's, he has an interest in sabotaging IPEA (and thus SEELE). By the 9th Angel attack, though, NERV seems to be the only organization left with any functional Evangelions, with the top-secret Unit-06 (operated by SEELE itself) the only exception.

Regarding the IPEA technicians being questioned, I wonder if there are any survivors after the Unit-05-3rd-Angel explosion, because my impression was the entire base blew up.

SEELE-01
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 1792
Joined: Dec 30, 2009
Location: Guess...
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby SEELE-01 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:39 am

View Original PostJornophelanthas wrote:Or Kaji is giving her all this access and equipment


Kaji? I don't think he can have acces to all of that...
As muchas he is an spy, I doubt that all the required data and materials can be found by him alone...

View Original PostJornophelanthas wrote:Regarding the IPEA technicians being questioned, I wonder if there are any survivors after the Unit-05-3rd-Angel explosion, because my impression was the entire base blew up.


Then again, wasn't that base NERV's too? The uniforms of the people there were a lot like Maya's...
All we know is that most likely IPEA is in Europe and in an english speaking country... Britain... Illustrious... OMG!
Visit my Eva-figures blog, Youtube channel and Twitter

Jornophelanthas
Matarael
Matarael
Posts: 586
Joined: Dec 24, 2010
Location: Europe
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Jornophelanthas » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:51 am

View Original Postarael wrote:Kaji? I don't think he can have acces to all of that...
As muchas he is an spy, I doubt that all the required data and materials can be found by him alone...

Kaji in Rebuild appears to have a lot more knowledge and influence than in NGE. He is actually "in the know" here, rather than in NGE, where he was doing legwork and only scraped the surface. We don't know the full extent of his influence or his intentions, but there are strong hints that he is Mari's "handler". So far there is little reason to suspect Mari has other sponsors (although she does seem to have a personal agenda).

View Original Postarael wrote:Then again, wasn't that base NERV's too? The uniforms of the people there were a lot like Maya's...
All we know is that most likely IPEA is in Europe and in an english speaking country... Britain... Illustrious... OMG!

Actually, I believe that base shows an IPEA logo in any place where you would normally expect a NERV logo. It looks like in Rebuild, NERV is not a worldwide organisation, but rather just Japan-based. IPEA is very likely a Europe/Russia based sister-organization to NERV, that is run by SEELE behind the scenes (just like NERV is supposed to be).

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Posts: 23531
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Lost in Bat Country
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:37 pm

Badly renamed thread to more accurately reflect scope of discussion.

Jorno: Nerv has branches in Europe and the US and on the Moon. Bethany Base and Golgotha Base are also presumably Nerv branches in the same way that Tabgha Base (=7th Branch) is.

Bethany Base's walls are lined with the Seele logo, but I don't recall seeing the IPEA logo (although IPEA was given credit for the manufacture of Eva-05's bootup and entry sequence).

Jornophelanthas
Matarael
Matarael
Posts: 586
Joined: Dec 24, 2010
Location: Europe
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Jornophelanthas » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:56 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Badly renamed thread to more accurately reflect scope of discussion.

Jorno: Nerv has branches in Europe and the US and on the Moon. Bethany Base and Golgotha Base are also presumably Nerv branches in the same way that Tabgha Base (=7th Branch) is.

Bethany Base's walls are lined with the Seele logo, but I don't recall seeing the IPEA logo (although IPEA was given credit for the manufacture of Eva-05's bootup and entry sequence).


Regardless, Gendo appears only head of NERV-Japan (and not NERV worldwide), with only limited access to other locations and other Evangelion Units. Even his control of Unit-02 appears to be limited, since European authority could launch it during the 10th Angel battle without involving the Tokyo-3 crew. (Most likely some kind of access code that was given to Mari.)
To me, Unit-02 appears to be provided on loan to Tokyo-3 for combat purposes.

Regarding IPEA, I can't check back at the moment, but in the scene where Unit-02 gets sealed (or the scene where Mari dons her pink plugsuit), doesn't it show an IPEA logo on the hatch of the "storage space"?

Kendrix
Defender of Puppy Boy
Defender of Puppy Boy
User avatar
Age: 25
Posts: 5086
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Location: Germany
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Kendrix » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:26 pm

"reconfiguration" could mean the same thing that Ritsuko usually has to do when Shinji refuses to Pilot and they have to stuff Rei in there.
Rei talks like she could get into Unit 02 at any time, and they had little worries about putting Kaworu in there, yes, he's a special case, but what was called "strange" was that such "reconfiguration" was NOT needed in his case/his synch rate reaching levels where a normal human would have liquified.

The EVAs might not be that picky with their choice of pilot as we thought, both in Rebuild and in the original Series - The moms just seem to work better/have the best synching results.
It's just EVA 00/01 being expecially picky.

There was some technobabble about "core reintegration" when EVA 02 was unsealed - so EVA 03's core most likely didn't have Kyoko in it, and they still thought testing it with Asuka would work. (If they're still going to use Asuka's backstory - and they will, look at the doll, it would be pretty impractical if the core containing Kyoko had been ripped into schreds along with the rest of EVA 03...)

Mari piloting EVA 02 might not be such a game breaker at all - and for the dialogue at the activation: Either the same ppl that dropper her off/phoned her, or, more likely: Computer Voices/ reports from automatic systems
Make Clone Love Not Clone War

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
User avatar
Posts: 23531
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Lost in Bat Country
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:30 pm

Eva piloting mechanics stuff should go here if we're gonna get in-depth. I can move your post if you like, Kendrix.

View Original PostJornophelanthas wrote:Regardless, Gendo appears only head of NERV-Japan (and not NERV worldwide), with only limited access to other locations and other Evangelion Units.

This is how it was in NGE, as well, so no revelation here.

Regarding IPEA, I can't check back at the moment, but in the scene where Unit-02 gets sealed (or the scene where Mari dons her pink plugsuit), doesn't it show an IPEA logo on the hatch of the "storage space"?

Yeah, it is. The facility also has a line designating a change in jurisdiction from Nerv to UN IPEA.

Here's the background talk from the Eva-02 Sealing scene:

Woman: Eva Unit Two's core unit separation complete. Unit Two is inbound for housing within Containment Silo Two.
Man: Once the hatch door has been closed, the IPEA inspectors will implement the necessary sealing and containment measures. All personnel without permission to remain must leave within fifteen minutes.
Woman: Eva Unit Two is descending. Please evacuate to Safety Zone Three. I repeat...

makinami
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 30
Joined: Mar 29, 2011

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby makinami » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:37 am

Slapping this on to an existing IPEA thread; it didn't seem that this was mentioned anywhere else here or on the wiki.

I must have been sitting at the right angle and looked up at the screen at just the right time, but noticed this when the IPEA containment doors cracked open.

Image

I'm pretty impressed how Khara managed to smoosh the three eyed Eva (maybe a True Eva? certainly is reminiscent of the three eyed "Adam"), a pilot, and the Rutherford atom into a pretty clean looking logo.

It's sort of the opposite of the convolution of the new NERV logo, as interesting as those changes are.

Azathoth
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3495
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
Location: somewhere under noctis labyrinthus

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Azathoth » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:31 am

View Original Postmakinami wrote:I'm pretty impressed how Khara managed to smoosh the three eyed Eva (maybe a True Eva? certainly is reminiscent of the three eyed "Adam"), a pilot, and the Rutherford atom into a pretty clean looking logo.


It'd be nice, but the True Eva is Mark 06, not God Unit 01 (or Unit 08, for that matter). I suppose it's possible that Mark 06 has three eyes, but the visor shape doesn't really suggest that.

What's interesting is that the logo is a rather close description of God Unit 01, True Eva or no: three eyes, two cores, white body. Not sure if that's the direct intent, or if the logo, like the design of God Unit 01, is simply a visual reference to the three-eyed Adam.
Nothing is so valuable that it need not be started afresh, nothing is so rich that it need not be enriched constantly.

Sik
Embryo
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 32
Joined: Mar 22, 2011

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sik » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:42 am

Lol its nothing like Mari hijacking eva02, shes just following orders, she might have a personnal agenda but at least during the entire movie shes following orders, she has been trained in Bethany, she knows the operators and she was badass enough to selfdestruct his Eva, wich btw exploded outside Bethany Base, so its impossible that the entire base was destroyed.

She was ordered to pilot eva 02, since she needed operators to change the eva02 core, she cant do it by herself =P, now I wonder, if theres no need of a mother-soul on evas (since we have no proves of that on Rebuild) whats the deal with core changing? Maybe they put a special type of core (IPEA-made) which can enter on berserk state only saying a password.

w00t just made a discovering! was watching the movie while typing and noticed in the Eva02 sealed scene (asuka-ritsuko-maya) that at some point in the wall theres a white line and says "Keep Out - Above the Line.... Jurisdictional to Nerv" and "Keep Out - Below the Line... Jurisdictional to UN IPEA" that could mean that IPEA have silos on every Nerv branch (terrestrial at least) and they can just activate and launch eva's inside them by remote control whenever they want =o

PD: Bethany base is Seele's (or at least directed by them), 3rd angel has the Seele Logo on his head.
The Beast!


Return to “Rebuild of Evangelion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests