Is there any good NGE fanfic?

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Re: Is there any good NGE fanfic?

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:00 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Honestly, it 'felt real' enough for me that I didn't need to spend time grappling with it. I don't think they needed to say all the stuff you're asking for out loud. Even considering your points, I'd argue it still has far fewer logical holes than NGE's own story. :P


Mmmm. I dunno 'bout that. I think NGE has precious few holes, but I suppose a lot of that is open to interpretation.

But that's for other threads. :)

In EoE, we don't get any indicator either way as to how soon other people would return. OtS assumes at least a few weeks go by before other people show up (or, at least, before they show up in the rather small part of the world that the story takes place in), but does indicate that life hasn't disappeared forever by way of Asuka noting the seagulls' appearance in the epilogue. They're the only two around for the duration of the story because it's equally as plausible as anything else, and because it's convenient to the plot.


Sure. And I don't knock that; I just think it ought to be addressed within the context of the narrative. I actually find it quite plausible that these two would be the only ones to come back for awhile, since they have more experience manipulating their AT fields than most anyone else. But Shinji at least should be going "wait, what?" when no one else shows up, since Yui told him flat out that other people could come back.

I don't want to read another "The Only Way Out Is Through*;"


I didn't wanna read the first one. :P

I want to delve into the characters' heads and the core of their emotional issues with as little distraction from it as possible, and the supposition that it takes a while longer for other life to return works well for that. You could argue it's a crutch, but I don't think there are many plot devices in all of fiction that couldn't be simplified down in the same way.


No, I agree with you here. I just want the author to lampshade it and show us that he's thought about it, that's all.

*a post-3i fic which I would not recommend, unless you're looking for torture, miseryporn, and literally no hope for characters you care about reading.


Yeah, I've seen it. The bit where Shinji got crucified was particularly delightful. And oh look, new characters! :asuka_miffed:

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Postby y3k » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:22 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Have you tried Rommel's Genocide: Extended? It picks up a bit before EoE and branches the timeline off from there, for reasons that are gradually revealed as the fic goes on. It's full of great drama, intrigue with the digging up of Nerv's secrets (both new and familiar ones), hurt/comfort and romance with your two favorite pilots, action and adventure, some horror elements, surprisingly good development and story usage of Rei 3...

The finale hasn't been completed yet, but hopefully it will be in the near future; it was slated for a release this summer, but it got to taking longer than expected.


Genocide is very much like a more condensed and better written version of Evangelion R. It's very original flavor, with the conspiracies taken to the logical extreme, the angels being more then one imagines them to be, and ACCs that don't make me want to burn my eyes out.

I eagerly await the conclusion.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:And as to the points you didn't argue...note he didn't really deal with the various traumas the kids suffered,


This is probably the big reason Orchestrating the Silence doesn't rank among my favorites, even though by all rights it probably should. I get to the end and I'm just kinda "...that's it?"

I dunno. I realize I'm being picky, but I just can't helped but feel a little bit cheated in that regard. I don't dislike it, but I'm just not all that enamored by it. Though Asuka unleashing her inner pyro was definitely a wonderful moment to remember.

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:48 pm

View Original Posty3k wrote:I dunno. I realize I'm being picky, but I just can't helped but feel a little bit cheated in that regard. I don't dislike it, but I'm just not all that enamored by it. Though Asuka unleashing her inner pyro was definitely a wonderful moment to remember.


I don't think it's picky. It's tempting to blow off everything that happened to the kids since they seem to be perfectly fine in the midst of Instrumentality in EoE (well, they're bickering normally, at least), but I think that's more to do with the quirks of Instrumentality than any true indicator of their mental state. Shinji's ego was literally destroyed to make 3I happen; I've always felt that that, and not isolation, was the real reason for his wide-eyed stare in the final scene of the movie (IOW the calm we saw when he was talking to Yui was an illusion, the result of his mother directly interacting with the moe stable parts of his mind; it wasn't how he really was at that point). And Asuka...well, kinda obvious there.

Wanting that addressed isn't picky. It's the point of the exercise. Seeing them develop a relationship with one another is very, very cool, but it's only a small piece of the picture. The rest is much more important.

(but yes, watching Asuka blow shit up was cool.)

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Postby Cody MacArthur Fett » Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:42 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:No, it very much is a crutch.

Bull. Shit. The Peggy Sue is just as much of a legitimate plot device as any other. The fact that you hate it does not lessen it's value as a method of story telling, it just means that you, specifically, do not like Peggy Sues. This does not in any way, shape, or form make it a crutch.

Also, I'd like to point out that if the authors were to take your preference and make the stories AUs then they'd make no sense. Shinji's entire character in Once More With Feeling is based around his desire to atone for his actions in the OTL, the entire plot of The Second Try revolves around time travel and the effects of alternate timelines ceasing to exist, and in Taking Sights . . . er, Gendo's future knowledge causes him to screw up everything.

Besides, the only real non-Peggy Sue Peggy Sue I've ever seen is ARSENAL, and that's just plain disturbing.
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Postby y3k » Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:54 pm

Peggy Sue is tricky to get right. You almost have to deconstruct the basic premise to get a good story out of it these days. 'Character A fixes everything that went wrong' is boring. 'Character A tries to fix everything but the BUTTERFLY OF DOOM COMETH' is far more entertaining. This is why Taking Sights is so much fun; it not just deals blows that the characters (and the readers) find unexpected because of time tampering, but it also deconstructs the normal setup of one of the main protagonists going back. Instead you have one of the antagonists (who is hilariously incompetent when it comes to being kinder and gentler) and crazy-awesome Eldrich!Asuka.

The Second Try is another special case. Most of Asuka and Shinji's character development takes place in the standard Adam and Eve Post-3I plot/setting, allowing for them to be able to do what needs to be done in the Peggy Sue portion of the fic. It's also fun because it's not just one character that goes back, it's both of them.

What I'd like to see? A non-Adam and Eve Post-3I Peggy Sue fanfic. Someone from a few years into Post-3I reconstruction gets sucked back to the Angel war and has to wrestle with the moral ramifications of fucking with years of history and people's lives vs. keeping the world from being shot all to hell.

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Postby Azathoth » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:04 pm

Peggy Suing NGE doesn't sit well with me. For a series that's so insistent on dealing with your past and moving on, rather than constantly regressing to it/trying to make up for it - I can't get too much out of any story which tells me, "and then by fucking with timelines they fixed it." And if the story tells me, "and then by fucking with timelines they didn't fix it"...okay. I could have guessed that myself, though.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:19 pm

View Original Posty3k wrote:Peggy Sue is tricky to get right. You almost have to deconstruct the basic premise to get a good story out of it these days.


That's the heart of my issue with them, yes. The Peggy Sue premise can work on its own if it's the point of the story (as in the eponymous case), but when you apply it to some other property you invariably wind up twisting its basic themes and making it unrecognizable in the process. This is particularly true in a case like NGE; the hedgehog's dilemma is central to the story there, and Peggy Sues pretty much make it meaningless.

And of course, they also involve the principle running away from the consequences of Instrumentality (and his/her own actions in general), which misses the whole damn point of the series (the fact that said principles are also liars and manipulative little fuckwits doesn't help; no change in Gendo, of course, but it amounts to character derailment for most everyone else). One of the reasons Re-Take works is because it actually addresses this: we have EoE Asuka throwing it in Shinji's face at every opportunity, which is kinda cool. The Peggy Sue is ultimately revealed to be a dodge, and Shinji realizes he has to work out his issues with Asuka, the real Asuka, in his own timeline.

View Original PostCody MacArthur Fett wrote:Bull. Shit. The Peggy Sue is just as much of a legitimate plot device as any other. The fact that you hate it does not lessen it's value as a method of story telling, it just means that you, specifically, do not like Peggy Sues. This does not in any way, shape, or form make it a crutch.


"Hi there. I'm not going to create any original material here. Instead, I'm going to wave my hands and "fix" the material that's already there."

That's a crutch dude.

Also, I'd like to point out that if the authors were to take your preference and make the stories AUs then they'd make no sense. Shinji's entire character in Once More With Feeling is based around his desire to atone for his actions in the OTL,


Yeah, by running away from their consequences. He might just as well have stayed in Instrumentality if he was gonna do that.

the entire plot of The Second Try revolves around time travel and the effects of alternate timelines ceasing to exist,


And relies on magical Kaworu powers to do it. Oh, and the consequences weren't, since Aki came back with them. It's fixfic with the added bonus of creating a cute kid for Shinji and Asuka out of thin air!

It's a bit of a special case since Jimmy actually does work through 3I and its consequences, and since Magical Kaworu actually takes everyone back (meaning there's no running away to speak of), but there's still an awful lot of handwaving there.

Edit: and note that the payoff for the whole ordeal, i.e. Aki-chan's life, would work fantastically well in an ISRP/Angelic Days environment. Just give S&A the kid and let them sort out their issues and the hilarity writes itself.

and in Taking Sights . . . er, Gendo's future knowledge causes him to screw up everything.


Hey, just like he did in the OTL! How 'bout that.
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Postby y3k » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:38 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:(the fact that said principles are also liars and manipulative little fuckwits doesn't help; no change in Gendo, of course, but it amounts to character derailment for most everyone else).


I'd argue against this, actually; though mostly in cases like The Second Try where it wasn't the central protagonists who decided to go back and were in fact forced into the situation. When the choice is either 'sit back and let people suffer' and 'fuck with history', especially if there's no clear way back to the original future, a wide majority of people are going to pick the first option. Only rarely will you get someone who is willing to let what amounts to genocide to go on in the name of the 'greater good'. Will they have to break a few morals? Probably, but that's just the reality of the situation weighing on them; a very NGE thing.

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:49 pm

View Original Posty3k wrote:I'd argue against this, actually; though mostly in cases like The Second Try where it wasn't the central protagonists who decided to go back and were in fact forced into the situation. When the choice is either 'sit back and let people suffer' and 'fuck with history', especially if there's no clear way back to the original future, a wide majority of people are going to pick the first option. Only rarely will you get someone who is willing to let what amounts to genocide to go on in the name of the 'greater good'. Will they have to break a few morals? Probably, but that's just the reality of the situation weighing on them; a very NGE thing.


True, it's less of an issue if the protagonist has no choice in the matter. I give them a pass in that case until they start cozying up to their love interest using future knowledge to get them in the sack.

But yes, The Second Try is a special case. It's also a prime example of a Peggy Sue fic that would work marvelously well as an AU (or, hell, a post-3I fic that wasn't an Adam & Eve scenario; if you stick with the post-3I stuff and have people come back in the meantime you can still get the same end result).

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Postby supershinjiasukashipper » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:23 pm

The perfect Eva fan-fic is like the holy grail, its hard to find. No one person can do it, it takes a team of people to make a perfect one, that way no one persons preference excels the others, creating a perfect balance for a perfect work. I am currently working on that with three members from this site. You will see the results in may. Look forward to it.
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Postby Cody MacArthur Fett » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:55 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:"Hi there. I'm not going to create any original material here. Instead, I'm going to wave my hands and "fix" the material that's already there."

That's a crutch dude.

You're complaining about originality in fanfic about a series that has been discussed to death a dozen times over in a fandom whose most common story-telling tactic is to retell the entire premise of the story over again from the beginning? . . . My advice? Put down the Eva an start reading BattleTech fics, you'll find yourself getting worked up a lot less and you'll save yourself a lot of trouble gained in a futile search for a story you're likely to never find.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:09 pm

View Original PostCody MacArthur Fett wrote:You're complaining about originality in fanfic about a series that has been discussed to death a dozen times over in a fandom whose most common story-telling tactic is to retell the entire premise of the story over again from the beginning? . . .


Yes. The reason being that I'm looking for good fanfic within that fandom that doesn't rely on those common and generally ineffectual tropes.

My advice? Put down the Eva an start reading BattleTech fics, you'll find yourself getting worked up a lot less and you'll save yourself a lot of trouble gained in a futile search for a story you're likely to never find.


Why would I do that? I've already found many NGE fanfics that suit my interests admirably. Heck, this very thread led me to one on its first page.

So thanks for the advice, but I think I'll pass.

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Postby y3k » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:17 pm

View Original Postsupershinjiasukashipper wrote:The perfect Eva fan-fic is like the holy grail, its hard to find. No one person can do it, it takes a team of people to make a perfect one, that way no one persons preference excels the others, creating a perfect balance for a perfect work. I am currently working on that with three members from this site. You will see the results in may. Look forward to it.


There is no such thing as a 'perfect' fanfic, just as there is no such thing as a 'perfect' story. Everything can be improved upon, especially as much of it is within the eye of the beholder. Evangelion R had a team working on it. Does that make it the best fanfic ever? Not by a longshot. Contrast to this, Genocide tells the exact same kind of story with (to my knowledge) a writing team of only one, and does a far better job. In fact, the bigger the writing staff, the more issues you have to tackle in order to just keep your project coherent, much less good.

(For the record, I actually did enjoy Eva R. I just know it could have been done better)

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:19 pm

View Original Posty3k wrote:There is no such thing as a 'perfect' fanfic, just as there is no such thing as a 'perfect' story. Everything can be improved upon, especially as much of it is within the eye of the beholder. Evangelion R had a team working on it. Does that make it the best fanfic ever? Not by a longshot. Contrast to this, Genocide tells the exact same kind of story with (to my knowledge) a writing team of only one, and does a far better job. In fact, the bigger the writing staff, the more issues you have to tackle in order to just keep your project coherent, much less good.

(For the record, I actually did enjoy Eva R. I just know it could have been done better)


IME the best results come from one writer with lots of beta readers. It's always good to have lots of people handy to call you on your bullshit.

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Postby y3k » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:22 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:IME the best results come from one writer with lots of beta readers. It's always good to have lots of people handy to call you on your bullshit.


True, but I don't really consider beta's to be part of the writing team, because they amount to editors and critics rather than pure creative voices. Especially in the case of things like Nobody Dies, which uses an entire forum worth of people to call Greg out on his work before he posts it elsewhere.

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Postby Cody MacArthur Fett » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:23 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Yes. The reason being that I'm looking for good fanfic within that fandom that doesn't rely on those common and generally ineffectual tropes.



Why would I do that? I've already found many NGE fanfics that suit my interests admirably. Heck, this very thread led me to one on its first page.

So thanks for the advice, but I think I'll pass.

Somehow I find it very hard to believe that you've found something you actually like to read on this thread, but I admit that is most likely a bias on my part generated by our wildly different ideas on what is acceptable in a good story. I still think you're being too picky, but I'm far too tired to continue arguing on this subject. I hope you actually find what your looking for, sir. Good hunting.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:26 pm

View Original Posty3k wrote:True, but I don't really consider beta's to be part of the writing team, because they amount to editors and critics rather than pure creative voices. Especially in the case of things like Nobody Dies, which uses an entire forum worth of people to call Greg out on his work before he posts it elsewhere.


Sure. I wasn't disagreeing with ya. :)

View Original PostCody MacArthur Fett wrote:Somehow I find it very hard to believe that you've found something you actually like to read on this thread, but I admit that is most likely a bias on my part generated by our wildly different ideas on what is acceptable in a good story.


I don't really care what you believe, to be honest. But FWIW I'm not really hunting perfection here; instead I'm looking for stories that manage to be good despite their obvious flaws. Orchestrating the Silence is a good example of such, and Genocide is another. Heck, for all my venting on Peggy Sues I'd put Once More With Feeling up there too, simply because the writing's top notch (even though its particular rendition of the Peggy Sue trope turns my stomach).
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Postby supershinjiasukashipper » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:49 pm

View Original Posty3k wrote:There is no such thing as a 'perfect' fanfic, just as there is no such thing as a 'perfect' story. Everything can be improved upon, especially as much of it is within the eye of the beholder. Evangelion R had a team working on it. Does that make it the best fanfic ever? Not by a longshot. Contrast to this, Genocide tells the exact same kind of story with (to my knowledge) a writing team of only one, and does a far better job. In fact, the bigger the writing staff, the more issues you have to tackle in order to just keep your project coherent, much less good.

(For the record, I actually did enjoy Eva R. I just know it could have been done better)

Give me link to that eva r

As for what you said, with the right team it is possible, you need one person with liberal idea, one with conservative ideas, and one who remains neutral. And the conservative one needs to be experienced in eva cannon. The liberal one needs to be passionate, and the neutral one needs to be a bit of both.
And you are right, it will never be perfect, but it will be as close as possible. In short, the right team can make a damn good fic.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:59 am

View Original Postsupershinjiasukashipper wrote:Give me link to that eva r
[google]eva r[/google] EVA-R was pretty much the first Eva fic I stumbled over after watching the series. It may have improved its c1997 style of web design, which did its best to hide where to find the text, in the interim. As for the story -- I wasn't grabbed by either premise or style.

View Original Postsupershinjiasukashipper wrote:The perfect Eva fan-fic is like the holy grail, its hard to find.
And no one fic will be all things to all men, as each of us brings our own baggage to the viewing and takes our own meaning from the show. The words that flowed from my metaphorical pen after finishing the series went into territory that I've not seen approached in any of the fics I've seen since; a perfect Eva fic for me would be somewhere out in that direction as well.
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Postby supershinjiasukashipper » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:20 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:[google]eva r[/google] EVA-R was pretty much the first Eva fic I stumbled over after watching the series. It may have improved its c1997 style of web design, which did its best to hide where to find the text, in the interim. As for the story -- I wasn't grabbed by either premise or style.

And no one fic will be all things to all men, as each of us brings our own baggage to the viewing and takes our own meaning from the show. The words that flowed from my metaphorical pen after finishing the series went into territory that I've not seen approached in any of the fics I've seen since; a perfect Eva fic for me would be somewhere out in that direction as well.

Thx for the link, and all I know is me and my cohorts are put some effort into making a pretty darn good fic.
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