Is there any good NGE fanfic?

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Is there any good NGE fanfic?

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:29 am

I'm not using the word "good" lightly here. I don't mean "stuff I like". I don't mean "stuff that's readable" or "stuff that favors a 'ship I like", either. I mean stuff that's good.

Writing good fanfic is tough. I'm becoming more convinced by the day that writing good NGE fanfic is next to impossible. NGE is nightmarishly complex, and its characters are compelling by virtue of the fact that they feel real. Capturing that verisimilitude would be difficult for a professional writer, let alone amateurs like us. I'm wondering if anyone's really managed to do it. Hell, I'm wondering if anyone's even come close.

Here's what I consider "good" for these purposes:

    *First, you gotta do the research. No really, it's essential here.
    *You gotta understand the characters. That means realizing that no, Shinji's not really a wimp, and no, Asuka's really not a nasty bitch. They're both a fuck of a lot more complicated than that.
    *You gotta remember you're dealing with children. These are not adults -- they are 13 and 14 year-old children. Oddly, this does not rule out romance and sex -- kids sometimes do it early when they're living in traumatic conditions. But you still gotta remember they're kids, not adults.
    *You need to remember that you're writing in your native language and not Japanese (unless you are Japanese, in which case never mind). That means using Japanese words and honorifics in your fic reads like Engrish -- i.e., it's fucking stupid. "Oh, but English can't translate all the nuances of Japanese..." Yeah, no shit Sherlock. That's why it's tough. Stop using crutches and learn to write.
    *You gotta manage plot, pacing, prose, dialogue, and all the other crap that every other fiction writer has to deal with.

And that's just for fics that diverge from canon at some point. If you're enough of a masochist to do post-EoE fic you have some extra stuff to deal with:

    *You have to remember what Instrumentality means. It means your primary characters were inside one another's heads. It means Asuka won't be asking Shinji where he was when she was being destroyed by the MP Evas, because she knows that. She won't ask why he masturbated over her in the hospital, because she knows that. Likewise, Shinji won't ask Asuka about her mother because he knows that. He won't ask her why she's mean to him, either, for much the same reason. It's fair to say the characters probably won't be familiar with every single memory and nuance of the other, but they'll know the major events because that's what Instrumentality means. This is why Orchestrating the Silence is so fucking annoying -- the author can write, and damn well at that, but he doesn't grok what Instrumentality means. All the money shots in the latter half of the fic wrestle with questions the characters shouldn't even need to ask (and I don't care because it's fucking beautiful despite all that, but it's still fucking annoying because I keep thinking about how much better it would be if the author really understood EoE).
    *You have to figure out who's coming back and why, and you have to sell it. It's a good idea to remember at this point that the Adam and Eve scenario is fucking stupid. The reason it's stupid is because Yui tells us outright that other people can come back. If you want to stagger it somehow (e.g. "Shinji and Asuka are good at manipulating AT fields since they've been trained to do exactly that, but it will take everyone else awhile to catch up") that's fine, but you have to sell it.
    *You have to figure out how your subjects will survive, and you have to sell that.
    *It's probably a good idea to remember that the point of EoE is that life is hard, but ultimately worth living. Pure WAFF misses the point. So does darkfic/tragedy. Scar Tissue is an example that kinda sorta dodges the bullet here, since it's darkfic that's leading somewhere, but it has other problems (like "holy fuck, you need an editor man!").
    *You gotta remember that rape, dismemberment, suicide attempts, killing other human beings, being shot at by other human beings, being the godhead of species-wide apotheosis/mass extinction events, watching people you love die, betrayal, and various and sundry other unpleasantries are things that have to be fucking dealt with. You can't sweep them aside to focus on your damn WAFF. It's stupid. Once this stuff has happened to the characters you have to deal with it if you're going to use them.
    *If you're using a Peggy Sue you're using a damn crutch. Either have the balls to make a legitimate AU or do the heavy lifting and tell your own goddamn story. Stop dicking around like a fucking amateur.

I'm sure I've missed some things, but you get the point.

Now, I have made not one, but TWO lists. And I've posted them on the Internet. That means some dweeb is gonna feel compelled to argue about them! Well, feel free dweeb. The lists aren't the point. They just illustrate the standards I'm going for here, along with the fact that writing fiction, good fiction, is tough.

So, for those of you who can read the above and say "okay, you're full of shit on this point, but I get your drift in general," have you come across any genuinely good NGE fanfic out there? Or am I gonna have to continue to vet it the same way I do doujinshi (i.e., "holy fuck this is a stupid story, but damn if it doesn't scratch that itch just so...")?

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Postby esselfortium » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:49 am

Regarding your complaint with OtS, I'm not sure that your interpretation of how people would interact after Instrumentality is necessarily the only workable or correct one.

After an event as intense and mind-bending as that, can we really know for sure that, after leaving it, anyone would be able to coherently remember much more than they would after waking up from a dream? Particularly with the issues of survival all else that there was to focus on immediately afterwards, I don't think it's at all farfetched to suppose that much of it would have faded from memory long before they have the discussions you're referring to.

Plus, even all that aside, it's a fanfic. NGE is a fictional work where penguins read newspapers, not a documentary about the events of an alternate universe. The specific workings of instrumentality are barely defined even within the show. Nearly any fanfiction, by the very virtue of its existence, takes at least a few liberties with the plot in order to allow their own stories to come to be. If it didn't, we'd just be reading NGE itself again.

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:04 am

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Regarding your complaint with OtS, I'm not sure that your interpretation of how people would interact after Instrumentality is necessarily the only workable or correct one.


It most certainly is not. But he doesn't even address it (and as a point of order Asuka knows about the masturbation scene, so it would be damn peculiar if she didn't know what he was doing while she was fighting the MP Evas, or if he didn't know about her mother).

After an event as intense and mind-bending as that, can we really know for sure that, after leaving it, anyone would be able to coherently remember much more than they would after waking up from a dream? Particularly with the issues of survival all else that there was to focus on immediately afterwards, I don't think it's at all farfetched to suppose that much of it would have faded from memory long before they have the discussions you're referring to.


Then sell it. You can do that if you want, but you need to address it since we know the two were literally sharing their thoughts during Instrumentality.

Plus, even all that aside, it's a fanfic. NGE is a fictional work where penguins read newspapers, not a documentary about the events of an alternate universe. The specific workings of instrumentality are barely defined even within the show. Nearly any fanfiction, by the very virtue of its existence, takes at least a few liberties with the plot in order to allow their own stories to come to be. If it didn't, we'd just be reading NGE itself again.


No, we'd just be reading original flavor fanfic.

And I don't want a documentary. In fact, I'd be happy with keeping the exposition to an absolute minimum. But that doesn't mean you don't have to do the heavy lifting. In fact, communicating that work effectively without resorting to exposition is one of the marks of quality writing, since it can be tough to manage.

NB: don't forget that I've noted I don't care about this particular fic's failings since it's so well-written. In fact, it's one of my favorite fanfics. But that doesn't mean I'll give the author a pass for failing to address some fairly critical points for an EoE fanfic.

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Re: Is there any good NGE fanfic?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:20 am

Trying to select some good or at least good enough, fics is what the original recommendations thread attempted to do, before it got merged with a couple of other threads.

Reading between the lines, it seems like unless a fic is SRS BZNS it probably wouldn't pass muster (so there goes the genuinely funny works like Misato's Predicament or Two Salarymen).

>You can't sweep them aside to focus on your damn WAFF.

It's not just post-3I fics -- too many fics, even otherwise good ones, just fail to confront what is going to happen after episode 24, and even act like that was the last episode and nothing major happens thereafter (Daughter of Elysium, I'm looking at you). And that's even considering the ones that aren't stuck in some indefinitely extended angel-free hiatus around episode 13 to do the teen romance schtick.

One nit I will pick -- honorifics. It's standard practise in English language writing to refer to a Frenchman as M. a German as Herr, and a Spaniard as Señor, etc. There is no difference in using the equivalents in other languages.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:have you come across any genuinely good NGE fanfic out there? Or am I gonna have to continue to vet it the same way I do doujinshi (i.e., "holy fuck this is a stupid story, but damn if it doesn't scratch that itch just so...")?
You're going to have to judge things according to your own tastes, I'm afraid. Me -- I haven't seriously read an NGE fanfic since TToR404 bottled out on doing the End of R404.
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Postby Cody MacArthur Fett » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:48 am

I think you're being way too picky there, Bagheera. I've seen plenty of good fanfics out there, but there are none that totally meet your specifications. In fact, the only two that I've seen come close are SoE 2: Lone Heir of Krypton, and a new story coming down the pipe from K9Thefirst1 called My Enemy, My Friend, with the possible exception of Walking in the Shadow of Dreams. Look, there are pretty of damn good Eva fics out there, but there are very few that meet such exacting specifications.

For instance, Once More With Feeling is one of the most beloved stories in the fandom, but it has the soul of Unit-00 be Naoko Akagi. Does that make it an accurate story? No, no it doesn't. Does it make it a bad story then? Most certainly not! (It also is a Peggy Sue story, so I'd have to disagree with you that such a plot is a crutch.)

Now, moving onto suggesting some good reading material . . .

The Blue Rose -- This is a really great story that unfortunately didn't get a lot of coverage when it came out, possibly because it focuses more on original characters and their interactions with the Eva cast rather then the Eva cast proper. The story is fairly interesting, and it's fascinating to see the characters all work through their various crippling physical and psychological problems, but the ending is a bit of a Mind Screw. There also is a sequel out that I admittedly haven't read, so I can't confirm the quality of it.

Points of Familiarity -- a post-EoE crossover story from the same author as Shinji and Warhammer 40k that features Shinji being summoned to the world of Zero No Tsukaima. It's not quite as good as Unfamiliar, but it's still a very enjoyable read.

Deus Ex Evangelion -- An odd little tale that features a nearly-bald Asuka as the pilot of Unit-01, Shinji as Asuka's Vitriolic Best Bud, and Rei as the confused tag-along. A very good tale that should really get to updating soon.
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Postby esselfortium » Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:52 pm

Have you tried Rommel's Genocide: Extended? It picks up a bit before EoE and branches the timeline off from there, for reasons that are gradually revealed as the fic goes on. It's full of great drama, intrigue with the digging up of Nerv's secrets (both new and familiar ones), hurt/comfort and romance with your two favorite pilots, action and adventure, some horror elements, surprisingly good development and story usage of Rei 3...

The finale hasn't been completed yet, but hopefully it will be in the near future; it was slated for a release this summer, but it got to taking longer than expected.

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:26 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Trying to select some good or at least good enough, fics is what the original recommendations thread attempted to do, before it got merged with a couple of other threads.

Reading between the lines, it seems like unless a fic is SRS BZNS it probably wouldn't pass muster (so there goes the genuinely funny works like Misato's Predicament or Two Salarymen).


I realize it's a high standard. That's deliberate, though -- the object is to see what at least comes close to meeting it. I'm also willing to make allowances for a work if it changes the flavor of the material (as in the examples you describe).

You can't sweep them aside to focus on your damn WAFF.


It's not just post-3I fics -- too many fics, even otherwise good ones, just fail to confront what is going to happen after episode 24, and even act like that was the last episode and nothing major happens thereafter (Daughter of Elysium, I'm looking at you). And that's even considering the ones that aren't stuck in some indefinitely extended angel-free hiatus around episode 13 to do the teen romance schtick.


Right. I would argue, in fact, that Asuka's loss to the MP Evas is the least traumatic of her experiences at the end of the series (or at least, that the real issue is less her defeat and more the loss of her mother once again).

One nit I will pick -- honorifics. It's standard practise in English language writing to refer to a Frenchman as M. a German as Herr, and a Spaniard as Señor, etc. There is no difference in using the equivalents in other languages.


That only applies when speaking in English, though. It doesn't apply when you're translating what people are saying in another language.

I do agree it's hard not to give Japanese a pass here, though, since its honorifics really have no English equivalents -- and when that's the only concession made it doesn't really bother me. But that's typically not the case.

You're going to have to judge things according to your own tastes, I'm afraid. Me -- I haven't seriously read an NGE fanfic since TToR404 bottled out on doing the End of R404.


I feel like I should know what that means but I'm drawing a blank.

View Original PostCody MacArthur Fett wrote:For instance, Once More With Feeling is one of the most beloved stories in the fandom, but it has the soul of Unit-00 be Naoko Akagi. Does that make it an accurate story? No, no it doesn't. Does it make it a bad story then? Most certainly not! (It also is a Peggy Sue story, so I'd have to disagree with you that such a plot is a crutch.)


No, it very much is a crutch.

Look, I enjoy Once More With Feeling. The guy knows how to write. But I really, really wish the guy had done an AU instead of sending Shinji back in time. He couldn't be more out of character if he tried and because of that I feel like we're missing the whole point of the story. I get the appeal, since Asuka and Rei get to shine in ways they didn't before, but it's still painful to read because of that one core issue.

And yeah, I'll admit along with any other sane person that Aki-chan from The Second Try is about the cutest kid in existence, and I grit my teeth and give the fic a pass just so we can read about Aki-chan's life. But the plot device he used just made my teeth itch (not only the Peggy Sue, but also how he implemented it).

And of course Re-Take's in the same boat, only it didn't even bother to explain its plot device. I try to give it a pass, though, since it ultimately resulted in Shinji and Asuka working things out in the primary timeline and alt-Shinji and alt-Asuka working things out in their timeline. Also, watching Misato chase Kaji in a tank so she can mug him and take her happiness by force was both hilarious and awesome.

All three of these manage to be decent reads despite their choice of plot device, not because of it.

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:44 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Have you tried Rommel's Genocide: Extended? It picks up a bit before EoE and branches the timeline off from there, for reasons that are gradually revealed as the fic goes on. It's full of great drama, intrigue with the digging up of Nerv's secrets (both new and familiar ones), hurt/comfort and romance with your two favorite pilots, action and adventure, some horror elements, surprisingly good development and story usage of Rei 3...

The finale hasn't been completed yet, but hopefully it will be in the near future; it was slated for a release this summer, but it got to taking longer than expected.


It looks good so far. I'm a bit worried by the prospect of more angels showing up, but I like how he's handling the characters. Thanks for the recommendation.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:51 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Right. I would argue, in fact, that Asuka's loss to the MP Evas is the least traumatic of her experiences at the end of the series
I hadn't been considering anything as trivial as the uber-bitchfight. When the series not only includes as a major undercurrent the technological implementation of a cure for the human condition, but, in the TV end, at least, also seems to include its successful execution, that is really an incidental squabble happening around the ankles of the elephant in the room.

I was aiming my remarks at fics that are in denial about the whole endpoint of the Human Complementation Project that is looming out of the imminent future of episode 24 like an avalanche.

But that's really the particular bee in my bonnet -- the one that means that I feel Eva fics that aren't either crazy mash-ups or outright humour are usually just missing the whole point.

That only applies when speaking in English, though. It doesn't apply when you're translating what people are saying in another language.
I think if you pick up a volume of Maigret, to pick the first counter-example that comes to mind, you will find it has M., Mme. and Mlle. all over.

I feel like I should know what that means but I'm drawing a blank.
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Re: Is there any good NGE fanfic?

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Postby y3k » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:52 pm

"Hope that guides us, Pain that binds us" is a neat little gem that seems to get mostly ignored in fanfiction talk. On the downside, it's a dead fic at this point, but what's there is some great shit. It was one of the first Eva fanfics I read, and it remains one of my personal favorites.

It's post 3I, and while it's allegedly Asuka/Shinji, it's more focused on the most dysfunctional family in history--fics we need more of. Misato's got some great development in regards to the kids, and there's hints of future political trouble down the road, though sadly we don't get to see it because it's dead. There's some low-level WAFF in later chapters once some of the dust has settled, but it's interspaced with the realization that '...well shit, we fucked up'.

Downsides? Eh...Rei's back. Not that I don't like Rei; on the contrary, and it's nice to see her get some development, but any time she shows up post 3I as a normal person, the explanation tends to be hamfisted, and this is no exception. The other major downside is a problem virtually every Post 3I fanfic has, and that's the fact that for some bizarre reason every fanfic author seems to 'forget' that either A: Tokyo 3 was vaporized, B: the Geofront lifted off with the black moon into space, or C: the resulting crater's going to be many kilometers in size and depth. Even Orchestrating the Silence seems to underestimate just how large this sumbitch is going to be. But, as it seems to be a collective 'screw you' in the community to physics, I'll let it slide.

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Regarding your complaint with OtS, I'm not sure that your interpretation of how people would interact after Instrumentality is necessarily the only workable or correct one.

After an event as intense and mind-bending as that, can we really know for sure that, after leaving it, anyone would be able to coherently remember much more than they would after waking up from a dream? Particularly with the issues of survival all else that there was to focus on immediately afterwards, I don't think it's at all farfetched to suppose that much of it would have faded from memory long before they have the discussions you're referring to.


I'm going to have to side with this opinion. Shinji and Asuka didn't just interact with each other, they interacted with at least the rest of the cast and quite possibly to some degree with the rest of humanity. There's only so much information a person's mind can absorb in one go before stuff just begins to pour out the other ear. This is why cramming for a test the night before has a mixed effect; if you go in for that study session not knowing anything, chances are you're going to blank out afterward. It'd be hard enough for Shinji or Asuka to remember every detail about each other to begin with--now multiply it.

Plus, it allows for more angst afterward. I'm totally willing to allow it.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Now, I have made not one, but TWO lists. And I've posted them on the Internet. That means some dweeb is gonna feel compelled to argue about them! Well, feel free dweeb.


Mmm. Charming.

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:00 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:I hadn't been considering anything as trivial as the uber-bitchfight. When the series not only includes as a major undercurrent the technological implementation of a cure for the human condition, but, in the TV end, at least, also seems to include its successful execution, that is really an incidental squabble happening around the ankles of the elephant in the room.

I was aiming my remarks at fics that are in denial about the whole endpoint of the Human Complementation Project that is looming out of the imminent future of episode 24 like an avalanche.

But that's really the particular bee in my bonnet -- the one that means that I feel Eva fics that aren't either crazy mash-ups or outright humour are usually just missing the whole point.


True. I'm looking at Genocide and it's kind of peculiar; the characters are dead on, but the plot has me going "wait, what?" It's just completely ignoring the whole complementation angle. I don't mind that in post-EoE fics, since it's over and done with and rejected and all, but just blowing it off...weird.

I think if you pick up a volume of Maigret, to pick the first counter-example that comes to mind, you will find it has M., Mme. and Mlle. all over.


Yes, but that's an affectation, not a valid translation. This is particularly true with French, German, and the like, since their honorifics have direct translations in English.

That said, I have to concede the point; regardless of whether or not it might technically be proper the fact remains that it's done. If valid and accepted literary works do it I can hardly expect amateurs to be held to a higher standard. And since we're speaking English and not French here, well...

I wonder how many here will get that reference.



Oh, that. Right.

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Re: Is there any good NGE fanfic?

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Postby esselfortium » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:02 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:True. I'm looking at Genocide and it's kind of peculiar; the characters are dead on, but the plot has me going "wait, what?" It's just completely ignoring the whole complementation angle. I don't mind that in post-EoE fics, since it's over and done with and rejected and all, but just blowing it off...weird.

It's not blown off at all, actually. The scenario is just changed a little bit. The details about what's going on and why will be revealed to you as Misato and the others discover them.

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:08 pm

View Original Posty3k wrote:"Hope that guides us, Pain that binds us" is a neat little gem that seems to get mostly ignored in fanfiction talk. On the downside, it's a dead fic at this point, but what's there is some great shit. It was one of the first Eva fanfics I read, and it remains one of my personal favorites.


I'll check it out, thanks.

Mmm. Charming.


Meh. Just heading it off at the pass. And of course, Essel comes by and does just that. This, despite being a charter member of the FFS. *sigh*

But he did point me toward Genocide, so I forgive him.

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Postby esselfortium » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:10 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Meh. Just heading it off at the pass. And of course, Essel comes by and does just that. This, despite being a charter member of the FFS. *sigh*

But he did point me toward Genocide, so I forgive him.

Thank goodness my dweebiness could be forgiven. I promise never to disagree with anyone in a discussion thread again ._.

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Postby BiQ » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:23 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:
    *You have to remember what Instrumentality means. It means your primary characters were inside one another's heads. It means Asuka won't be asking Shinji where he was when she was being destroyed by the MP Evas, because she knows that. She won't ask why he masturbated over her in the hospital, because she knows that. Likewise, Shinji won't ask Asuka about her mother because he knows that. He won't ask her why she's mean to him, either, for much the same reason. It's fair to say the characters probably won't be familiar with every single memory and nuance of the other, but they'll know the major events because that's what Instrumentality means.


While I agree with you on principle, I feel the need to point out that those things should not be glossed over, either. As you say:
(stuff) are things that have to be fucking dealt with.


...if for nothing else but trust issues: "Can I trust you to get off your ass in future for me if I need your help?" (that's for both of them, if you select suitable values for "getting off one's ass" and "help") and "can I trust you to trust me on that one?".

And I think that dealing with that stuff requires dialogue, and the most obvious way to start such a dialogue is asking questions. Even if the asking party knows the surface of the answer already.

Oh, and their common self-hatred should probably go into the list too, even if it may be implied from the 5th point in that second list of yours. I get the feeling that you wouldn't look too favorably to fics that let instrumentality handle too much of that.

And no, sorry, I haven't come across any evangelion fanfic that's good by those standards you have set forth. I guess I need to check out the ones that have been mentioned in this thread. And regarding OtC, I'm willing to forgive much of it's shortcomings just because it manages to keep Asuka from degenerating into a mindless lovebird...
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:09 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Thank goodness my dweebiness could be forgiven. I promise never to disagree with anyone in a discussion thread again ._.


Liar. :)

C'mon, cheer up. I took shots at a story you like, but I notice you haven't argued the points. It's no sin to admit that the things we love aren't perfect.

View Original PostBiQ wrote:...if for nothing else but trust issues: "Can I trust you to get off your ass in future for me if I need your help?" (that's for both of them, if you select suitable values for "getting off one's ass" and "help") and "can I trust you to trust me on that one?".

And I think that dealing with that stuff requires dialogue, and the most obvious way to start such a dialogue is asking questions. Even if the asking party knows the surface of the answer already.


Sure. It's a matter of approach, though. Instead of

"Why weren't you there to help me?"

You get something like

"I know why you weren't there to help me. What about next time?"

Simply put, Instrumentality should matter. If you treat it like it's not there you're just dealing with a post-apocalyptic story that might as well not even be Evangelion.

Oh, and their common self-hatred should probably go into the list too, even if it may be implied from the 5th point in that second list of yours. I get the feeling that you wouldn't look too favorably to fics that let instrumentality handle too much of that.


True. I actually go a bit easier on Shinji here, since both Rei and Yui worked hard to help him deal with that. But it should still be there, and if anything should be that much worse in Asuka.

And no, sorry, I haven't come across any evangelion fanfic that's good by those standards you have set forth. I guess I need to check out the ones that have been mentioned in this thread. And regarding OtC, I'm willing to forgive much of it's shortcomings just because it manages to keep Asuka from degenerating into a mindless lovebird...


Hell, if you want that go read Scar Tissue. That goes to the other extreme though. The Foregone Conclusion does as well, though it gets...strange after the first few chapters (which disappointed the hell out of me, since I thought it was hot stuff up through chapter 5. After that...uuuuuuuuugh.).

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Re: Is there any good NGE fanfic?

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Postby esselfortium » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:41 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Liar. :)

C'mon, cheer up. I took shots at a story you like, but I notice you haven't argued the points. It's no sin to admit that the things we love aren't perfect.

Buh? My post was to argue the points. You're letting your interpretation of heavily interpretable events be equated as the only possible valid one, and basing the 'accuracy' of a story on it. I'm not sure what more you want me to say than what I already posted, other than "Your opinion is right, Bagheera," which you're not getting from me. :P

It's your right to feel that way about it, but I don't have to "admit" something has flaws if I don't share or agree with the mindset that's leading you to see them as such in the first place.

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Postby Voland » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:44 pm

Uhm...my 2 cents

Personally, I don´t believe the characters should come out of Instrumentality knowing what everyone else was thinking. This isn´t us talking about people gradually being fed information. Instead, it´s some already mentally fragile people suddenly crammed with a million thoughts, memories and feelings. I´d be surprised if they could remember any of it at all, let alone be able to distinguish what X did and what Y thought. In fact, their sanity should be seriously damaged after it!

What I favour over the "I know what you did" approach is a more "I kinda know something happened...but I don´t know exactly. And I want to find out". In other words, neither extreme.

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Re: Is there any good NGE fanfic?

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:33 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Buh? My post was to argue the points. You're letting your interpretation of heavily interpretable events be equated as the only possible valid one, and basing the 'accuracy' of a story on it. I'm not sure what more you want me to say than what I already posted, other than "Your opinion is right, Bagheera," which you're not getting from me. :P

It's your right to feel that way about it, but I don't have to "admit" something has flaws if I don't share or agree with the mindset that's leading you to see them as such in the first place.


Did you read my reply to your post? I said pretty clearly that I'm well aware that my interpretation isn't the only possible one. But no matter your interpretation, you have to grapple with it somehow.

And as to the points you didn't argue...note he didn't really deal with the various traumas the kids suffered, nor with explaining why they were the only two around. He did hit the most important notes -- making the characters feel real and explaining how they're going to survive -- but apart from that the NGE-related stuff fell flat.

Ugh. I hate criticizing that story, 'cause it's full of really good character building. WAFF, yes, but good WAFF.

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Re: Is there any good NGE fanfic?

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Postby esselfortium » Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:49 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Did you read my reply to your post? I said pretty clearly that I'm well aware that my interpretation isn't the only possible one. But no matter your interpretation, you have to grapple with it somehow.

Honestly, it 'felt real' enough for me that I didn't need to spend time grappling with it. I don't think they needed to say all the stuff you're asking for out loud. Even considering your points, I'd argue it still has far fewer logical holes than NGE's own story. :P

why they were the only two around

In EoE, we don't get any indicator either way as to how soon other people would return. OtS assumes at least a few weeks go by before other people show up (or, at least, before they show up in the rather small part of the world that the story takes place in), but does indicate that life hasn't disappeared forever by way of Asuka noting the seagulls' appearance in the epilogue. They're the only two around for the duration of the story because it's equally as plausible as anything else, and because it's convenient to the plot.

I don't want to read another "The Only Way Out Is Through*;" I want to delve into the characters' heads and the core of their emotional issues with as little distraction from it as possible, and the supposition that it takes a while longer for other life to return works well for that. You could argue it's a crutch, but I don't think there are many plot devices in all of fiction that couldn't be simplified down in the same way.

*a post-3i fic which I would not recommend, unless you're looking for torture, miseryporn, and literally no hope for characters you care about reading.


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