NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:27 am

Oh, I don't doubt that they were able to discover the Fruit of Life. But that's very different from being able to apply it to themselves on a species-wide level. We always come back to the problem that, if they HAD done so, the whole Seeds of Life / Carriers thing would have been entirely unnecessary. Beings with both Fruits could have simply left the planet on their own.

Why would they NOT apply the Fruit of Life on a species-wide level before this whole Seed shenanigans? That's pretty easy to address. Assuming that the FAR did not simply pop into existence, and had to evolve naturally, their forms would have been too fragile. The Fruit of Life is effectively a REACTOR. Imagine a Lilin trying to house one of those things. It simply wouldn't work; their body would be completely obliterated by the Fruit itself. Adam's Children and Seeds/Evas can handle it because they have the core and a super-powerful ATF to contain it, plus their bodies are simply made of stronger stuff. But even that set-up isn't foolproof -- Angels have a reputation for blowing up when their core is breached, and who even knows what happened to Adam's S2 at 2I. All this meaning, people would need to upgrade their bodies in order to upgrade to the FoL. Doing that on a planet-wide scale prior to some kind of "imminent catastrophe forces everyone to cooperate in colossal effort to leave planet in time" scenario would not be a simple matter.

Another issue that I didn't bring up is the whole matter of collecting everyone into the Seeds' Chambers of Guf in the first place. We see in EoE that Fruit of Life beings are not affected by an Anti-A.T. Field. The MP Evas have to kill themselves manually. They're "fused with" Lilith and she can FORCE them to do it. Well and good here, since Lilith has acquired both Fruits, and the MPs are enslaved beings on top of that. Now look at the logistics of harvesting the souls of an entire planet where EVERYONE HAS BOTH FRUITS. The Seeds have been forced to pick one or the other, so any one of them is weaker than any single FAR. Okay, you might say, but there are SEVEN of them, they can work together. The FAR are going to number far more than seven. FAR with both fruits could not be forced to submit to this planet-wide evacuation problem. So, what, are the Seeds supposed to individually hunt down anyone who doesn't want to participate? Then get into God-fights with them? These people don't even need to stay on the planet in the first place; they could go anywhere. But, yeah, a planet full of people who are INDIVIDUALLY MORE POWERFUL than the supposed gods they created is just a wee bit of a problem. Anyone who didn't like the Seed program could destroy it all with ease long before it got to the point where souls could be harvested.

For that matter, you'd think an entire species of all-powerful gods who still think national divisions are necessary (the unnamed Seed of Life mentions bringing many 'peoples', i.e. of different nations, together as one) would have destroyed their planet long before they could manage to leave it via a cumbersome and nigh impossible to enforce emigration program...

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:27 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Why would they NOT apply the Fruit of Life on a species-wide level before this whole Seed shenanigans? That's pretty easy to address. Assuming that the FAR did not simply pop into existence, and had to evolve naturally, their forms would have been too fragile. The Fruit of Life is effectively a REACTOR. Imagine a Lilin trying to house one of those things. It simply wouldn't work; their body would be completely obliterated by the Fruit itself. Adam's Children and Seeds/Evas can handle it because they have the core and a super-powerful ATF to contain it, plus their bodies are simply made of stronger stuff. But even that set-up isn't foolproof -- Angels have a reputation for blowing up when their core is breached, and who even knows what happened to Adam's S2 at 2I. All this meaning, people would need to upgrade their bodies in order to upgrade to the FoL. Doing that on a planet-wide scale prior to some kind of "imminent catastrophe forces everyone to cooperate in colossal effort to leave planet in time" scenario would not be a simple matter.


While that may be true of Homo sapiens, given how squishy and vulnerable we are, there's already enough evidence enough for them to have had technology far beyond ours that would probably help mitigate some of those issues. Helped either dampen the power of the Fruit of Life or buff their AT Fields to help keep it in check. Something like that. And given we know nothing about their history beyond "they had to abandon their home planet", we know very little about their history. Addition of the Fruit of Life may well have been a more gradual process, growing and empowering it over generations, as opposed to all at once.

View Original PostReichu wrote:Another issue that I didn't bring up is the whole matter of collecting everyone into the Seeds' Chambers of Guf in the first place. We see in EoE that Fruit of Life beings are not affected by an Anti-A.T. Field. The MP Evas have to kill themselves manually. They're "fused with" Lilith and she can FORCE them to do it. Well and good here, since Lilith has acquired both Fruits, and the MPs are enslaved beings on top of that. Now look at the logistics of harvesting the souls of an entire planet where EVERYONE HAS BOTH FRUITS. The Seeds have been forced to pick one or the other, so any one of them is weaker than any single FAR. Okay, you might say, but there are SEVEN of them, they can work together. The FAR are going to number far more than seven. FAR with both fruits could not be forced to submit to this planet-wide evacuation problem. So, what, are the Seeds supposed to individually hunt down anyone who doesn't want to participate? Then get into God-fights with them? These people don't even need to stay on the planet in the first place; they could go anywhere. But, yeah, a planet full of people who are INDIVIDUALLY MORE POWERFUL than the supposed gods they created is just a wee bit of a problem. Anyone who didn't like the Seed program could destroy it all with ease long before it got to the point where souls could be harvested.


I mean, it's not like anything possibly excludes the idea that most of the FAR were willing participants. If they as a species saw the writing on the wall, they might have come to the logical conclusion that it was the best course of action. The dissenting minority could have been overpowered by the willing majority.

View Original PostReichu wrote:For that matter, you'd think an entire species of all-powerful gods who still think national divisions are necessary (the unnamed Seed of Life mentions bringing many 'peoples', i.e. of different nations, together as one) would have destroyed their planet long before they could manage to leave it via a cumbersome and nigh impossible to enforce emigration program...


Considering they had to leave their home world because it was on the verge of collapse, it's possible their pursuit of Godhood is was caused the cataclysm in the first place. They realized how colossally they'd fucked up, hence the desire to keep the 2 Fruits as far apart as possible last history repeat itself.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:51 pm

I feel like the most important parts of my argument are the ones that either get completely glossed over, or batted aside with a half-hearted "YEAH BUT [some hypothetical that requires even more assumptions to be made]!". Like, I realize not much information about these guys is provided, but it's important to privilege the right information.

Speaking to nobody in particular here, it feels like the stuff about "forbidden fusion", which comes from Seele and Gendo, is privileged above the behavior of the Spear of Longinus. The Spear of Longinus does not attempt to stop Eva-01's apotheosis; in fact, it helps her along and by the end it has become her servant! Seele and Gendo are referencing the Scrolls, which contain some FAR insight but have been corrupted through the lens of Terran spirituality; the Spear is acting upon the programming that the FAR placed within it. One is therefore more reliable than the other.

Further, I feel that this part of the C.I. gets criminally overlooked:

Within a carrier known as a "Moon", the First Ancestral Race fabricated a perfect cavity (also referred to as a "Moon"), at which point the Seed, or "Progenitor Entity", would be placed inside and sent out into space. Such was their technology, and, from the perspective of Angels, humans, and others, they might be called gods.

People see "god" in NGE being used to refer, in a specific context, to a being with both fruits, and the FAR are quote unquote "God", therefore they must have had both Fruits!! But here, it's made quite clear that they are only "God" from the perspective of the beings that are fruits of their super-advanced technology. Meaning, they aren't ACTUALLY God, or gods. It's part Clarke's Third Law, and part "tendency of humans to venerate their ancestors". Don't let the rest of my post distract you from this piece of information. As one of the very few things said about them, it cannot be simply brushed aside.

If the FAR were mostly like us, just possessing more advanced technology (which does not necessarily mean no-holds-barred "thermodynamics ain't got shit on us"), far fewer assumptions need to made about them. If they have both fruits, the number of irresolvible questions is ENDLESS. There is simply nothing concrete to work with at all; any useful point of reference can be simply handwaved and replaced with mountains of whimsy that don't go anywhere. Maybe ya'll like it that way, but if you're dealing with an obscure part of the mythos for which there is very little information, I think it's better to keep things as simple as possible, and as grounded within the themes of the original work as possible.

NGE is a story about humanity. The whole point of NGE's "Gods" actually being human is sort of summed up with "God's in His heaven, All's Right With the World". God's in Heaven, meaning he's not here with us. "God" (in the sense of Seele's true god, the Kabbalistic one) is an abstract, incoherent being who is not meant to be understood; we exist as the merest embers of his cosmic magnificence, and the only meaningful relationship to be had is one of complete spiritual submission with the end goal of reintegration. The "gods" who are actually here with us are the human ones; they're inherently the same as we are. Understanding is difficult, and maybe PERFECT understanding is impossible, but it's possible to understand each other at least a little if we try. "Gods are really just people" ties also into how the power to change the world is entirely our own. We can't rely on any non-human source. Miracles are made by humans, not by God.

So much relevance is lost if our ancestors are forced into a reading where they must be so incoherent that it is completely impossible to speculate about them. You might as well just cut out the FAR altogether and say "God did it", since it's effectively the same thing. They're not God, they were people. That lets their story be more than mere window dressing. It lets it have meaning to the human audience for that story. It lets it tie thematically into the greater story of humanity that NGE presents. They're not meaningfully human if they escape our understanding in every way that matters, nor are we meaningfully a continuation of them.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:35 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:People see "god" in NGE being used to refer, in a specific context, to a being with both fruits, and the FAR are quote unquote "God", therefore they must have had both Fruits!! But here, it's made quite clear that they are only "God" from the perspective of the beings that are fruits of their super-advanced technology. Meaning, they aren't ACTUALLY God, or gods. It's part Clarke's Third Law, and part "tendency of humans to venerate their ancestors". Don't let the rest of my post distract you from this piece of information. As one of the very few things said about them, it cannot be simply brushed aside.


That's probably in big part me not doing a great job at explaining myself, but at no point was I meaning to put up the FAR as a literal Deity or Pantheon thereof. The reference to JHWH was more intended to be a literary allusion, as in "What if the FAR discovered the Fruit of Life through the science afforded to them by the Fruit of Knowledge, like what JHWH didn't want to happen in Genesis." At no point did I intend to equivocate the 2.

I do agree on the Clarke's Third Law deal, but I'll also point out it's not uncommon in anime to use "God" as a yardstick for how powerful a being is. After all, any being which has wisdom being your imagining and incredible longevity/physical abilities... well, what is the meaningful difference between that and a literal deity? After all, that description fits Unit-01 following her ascension as well.

View Original PostReichu wrote:If the FAR were mostly like us, just possessing more advanced technology (which does not necessarily mean no-holds-barred "thermodynamics ain't got shit on us"), far fewer assumptions need to made about them. If they have both fruits, the number of irresolvible questions is ENDLESS. There is simply nothing concrete to work with at all; any useful point of reference can be simply handwaved and replaced with mountains of whimsy that don't go anywhere. Maybe ya'll like it that way, but if you're dealing with an obscure part of the mythos for which there is very little information, I think it's better to keep things as simple as possible, and as grounded within the themes of the original work as possible.


The reason I think they must have at least had access to the Fruit of Life is because they expressly created a genetic legacy with that Fruit embued. To be it makes far more sense to suggest that the Fruit of Life was part of the FAR's genetic code that they felt was worth preserving, just not in tandem with the thing to make it truly dangerous, than to suggest they incorporated a completely alien (to them) bit of genetic information into their own descendants because "...uh... fuck it, why not?"

View Original PostReichu wrote:NGE is a story about humanity. The whole point of NGE's "Gods" actually being human is sort of summed up with "God's in His heaven, All's Right With the World". God's in Heaven, meaning he's not here with us. "God" (in the sense of Seele's true god, the Kabbalistic one) is an abstract, incoherent being who is not meant to be understood; we exist as the merest embers of his cosmic magnificence, and the only meaningful relationship to be had is one of complete spiritual submission with the end goal of reintegration. The "gods" who are actually here with us are the human ones; they're inherently the same as we are. Understanding is difficult, and maybe PERFECT understanding is impossible, but it's possible to understand each other at least a little if we try. "Gods are really just people" ties also into how the power to change the world is entirely our own. We can't rely on any non-human source. Miracles are made by humans, not by God.

So much relevance is lost if our ancestors are forced into a reading where they must be so incoherent that it is completely impossible to speculate about them. You might as well just cut out the FAR altogether and say "God did it", since it's effectively the same thing. They're not God, they were people. That lets their story be more than mere window dressing. It lets it have meaning to the human audience for that story. It lets it tie thematically into the greater story of humanity that NGE presents. They're not meaningfully human if they escape our understanding in every way that matters, nor are we meaningfully a continuation of them.


NGE is a story about humanity, yes, but it also makes very clear by the end that that doesn't mean it's a serious about Homo sapiens. Shinji being straight up told that a flying polyhedron that fires Frickin' Laser Beams and a Penis Chromosome are every bit as human as he is straight up says that thinking of humanity solely as Terran humans is a dead end. After all, the series has until that point spent a large portion of time tearing down the notion of Humans and Angels being so different as to be mutually incomprehensible is straight-up wrong, and that despite seemingly having all the differences in the world we're fundamentally not that different. The FAR, by virtue of being the genetic ancestry of these 2 extremes, naturally are subject to the same principle. If the notion of a race of Ubermensch precursors with advanced technology and physical abilities beyond our own seems to make them too different from ourselves, then perhaps the response is intended to be "then maybe I'm thinking of myself wrong."

Hell, perhaps given more time Homo sapiens may have truly risen to the levels of the FAR. "Forty thousand years of evolution and we've barely even tapped the vastness of human potential," indeed.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:36 pm

The reason I think they must have at least had access to the Fruit of Life is because they expressly created a genetic legacy with that Fruit embued. To be it makes far more sense to suggest that the Fruit of Life was part of the FAR's genetic code that they felt was worth preserving, just not in tandem with the thing to make it truly dangerous, than to suggest they incorporated a completely alien (to them) bit of genetic information into their own descendants because "...uh... fuck it, why not?"

On the one hand, this is a more coherent argument for the "two-fruited FAR" than anything else I've seen in the thread. But, on the other, I need to point out that there's no evidence that the FoL is "genetic". Evas are cloned directly from Adam, and they don't have the S2 engine. "Well, it must have been deliberately engineered out!" If that's the case, then the extreme interest in recovering a partly-intact S2 from an Angel makes absolutely no sense. Deliberately get rid of something, and then be desperate to recover that same thing, purely through luck? HUH??? Like, Seele had a sample of Adam right there! The original unaltered genome! They had Nerv trying to recover S2 engines from Angels before Kaji stole the bloody thing.

Now, alternatively, we know that the Evas not only are not born with souls, their souls come from Lilin. Angels, which ARE born with S2s, get their souls from Adam, who of course has the FoL. Meaning, the FoL is encoded on a spiritual level. This is substantiated by the phrasing used in Eva2. In terms of BOTH Fruits, they speak of a soul "eating" it. Spiritual attribute. This incidentally ties into this part from episode 20, as well:

COMMITTEEMAN ?:
The Eva series aren't capable of generating S2 engines themselves.

COMMITTEEMAN ?:
We never imagined it would take one into itself this way.

Two birds with one stone here. The Evas can't generate the S2 on their own because they don't have the spiritual information, and Seele, quite logically, did not expect an Eva to get around this the way Yui did, i.e., through such physical means. But the body-soul connection means that, hypothetically, what she did isn't beyond the realm of possibility. (And, well, she DID pull it off, so...) She forcefully assimilated the organ from Zeruel, and with it inside her body it could be spiritually encoded within the record of self that every soul tirelessly keeps.

In any case, things get quite a bit weirder if what Lilin conceptualize as the "fruits" are actually some product of metaphysical tech that's been integrated into the Seeds, and aren't necessarily a fundamental attribute of the FAR at all. But I'm not sure how else you're supposed to explain them being something that a preexisting FAR soul "eats".

--------------

And also, again: if the FAR themselves thought that the Fruits being together was "truly dangerous", why did the object which they themselves programmed not do a single thing to prevent Yui's apotheosis? Nor did the Spear do anything against Lilith, who had incorporated both into her body. The Spear is supposed to be the FAR's watchdog, but it fails utterly at carrying out what is, supposedly, one of the FAR's most basic tenets? Either you have to make up some excuse for the FAR's transcendental technology failing at the entrance exam -- or, more simply, the idea that the two Fruits being in one place necessarily foments disaster is just Lilin adding their own slant to the proceedings, which is nothing terribly new. Why is the idea that the FAR themselves originated the "forbidden fusion" stuff taken as gospel? :???:

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:50 am

Wow, lots of good arguments, folks! :w00t:
Let me dive into them...

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:the original Fruit of Life would have been a product of the Fruit of Knowledge


That is indeed a possibility. I would argue that it may not necessarily be the way they got it, but I don't think that it can be ruled out either.

View Original PostReichu wrote:Beings with both Fruits could have simply left the planet on their own.


Indeed, beings with both Fruits could. However, given:
1. The scenario presented to us (the separation of the Fruits between the Seeds);
2. The reasoning given to the presence of a SoL in each carrier, and;
3. The explanation given by the SDSS (even if we take it with a grain of salt);

We can assume that:
1. The FAR had no intention of giving them both to a single Seed, and;
2. By extension, to a single derived species.

With this argument in mind, is only logical to conclude that, independent of them having both or just one of the Fruits in their body, they weren't willing to employ the combination to escape their doom. That's a reason behind my proposition that was this "mixing" of Fruits that caused the catastrophe, at least on the FAR point of view.

View Original PostReichu wrote:Imagine a Lilin trying to house one of those things. It simply wouldn't work; their body would be completely obliterated by the Fruit itself


Lilin physiology might not be the rule here: the Seeds, Evas, Angels and (if I'm not mistaken) Rei are all composed of PWM. Lilin bodies being composed of baryonic matter seems to be the exception, not the rule. Using the sample given, I think it's safe to assume that the FAR bodies were made of PWM. And, as we know, PWM bodies can (somewhat) handle the FoL.

View Original PostReichu wrote:Doing that on a planet-wide scale prior to some kind of "imminent catastrophe forces everyone to cooperate in colossal effort to leave planet in time" scenario would not be a simple matter.


Two different points here:
1. Even if they didn't have the FoL, we don't know how much time they had between acknowledging that they were facing impending doom and the plan's implementation. As I mentioned in a post before, it may have been anything between 15 minutes and 5 millennia (or even more). The context is not given;
2. We don't know how many members the FAR race had. We tend to assume that a species is comprised of some billion individuals based on Homo sapiens numbers, but we only reached this figure recently, after significant technological advancement, and don't exactly know if the amount is sustainable. It's not unusual for a species to have a few thousand members and be considered not threatened by extinction, at least here on Earth. Based on that, even if the whole "carrier project" comprised the entire species, we can't assume that it was logisticaly implausible.

View Original PostReichu wrote:The Seeds have been forced to pick one or the other


Again, we're not presented any context of the scenario. The only case of a "non-compliant" individual was Lilith, and even her went on with the plan in some (limited and risky, indeed) way.

View Original PostReichu wrote:Anyone who didn't like the Seed program could destroy it all with ease long before it got to the point where souls could be harvested.


Without context, we can't prove or disprove it. But I think we can all agree, even without every FAR possessing the FoL, that would be possible even if the plan didn't include the whole species.

View Original PostReichu wrote:For that matter, you'd think an entire species of all-powerful gods[...]


Again, the logistics here are only an issue if we consider the exceptional case of Homo sapiens' numbers by the end of the 20th century.

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:Considering they had to leave their home world because it was on the verge of collapse, it's possible their pursuit of Godhood is was caused the cataclysm in the first place. They realized how colossally they'd fucked up, hence the desire to keep the 2 Fruits as far apart as possible last history repeat itself.


Might be possible, indeed. Can't prove or disprove it.

View Original PostReichu wrote:The Spear of Longinus does not attempt to stop Eva-01's apotheosis; in fact, it helps her along and by the end it has become her servant!


As I posted before, the SoL cannot be considered having the same intelligence as a human being. AFAIK, it doesn't have the FoK or a soul, so we can at most attribute to it some intelligence in the same sense as a programming, nothing else: If its task was to disable a Seed in the case of another being present on the same planet, we cannot assume it would go to any further length to avoid the Fruits' unification.
Indeed, if we assume that the FAR had both Seeds and the SoL was designed to respond to them, then it might as well be mistaking Eva-01 for one and reacting as such.

View Original PostReichu wrote:People see "god" in NGE being used to refer, in a specific context, to a being with both fruits, and the FAR are quote unquote "God", therefore they must have had both Fruits!! But here, it's made quite clear that they are only "God" from the perspective of the beings that are fruits of their super-advanced technology.


@Reichu, this is, indeed, the most compelling argument. Having such mastery over technology would surely be enough to consider them gods. However, this too raises a whole number of questions:
1. Why did they consider the FoL a legacy in the same level as the FoK?
2. Why treat them as mutually excludent?
3. Why consider a species having it encoded genetically (or spiritually) as being a valid legacy?

But the most compelling one, in my point of view, would be that :
4. If they had only the FoK and from it developed the FoL, why bother to divide them in the first place?

If that was the case with them, it's only logical to assume that another species having the FoK would eventually be able to develop the FoL and the whole separation would end up being totally pointless. Thus, I'm inclined to conclude that they indeed had both Fruits, having developed them by means of darwinian evolution, considered them equally relevant as their legacy, but mutually excludent regarding long-term survival as a species. I think that this explanation addresses most of the questions raised with fewer additional variables included.

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:The reason I think they must have at least had access to the Fruit of Life is because they expressly created a genetic legacy with that Fruit embued. To be it makes far more sense to suggest that the Fruit of Life was part of the FAR's genetic code that they felt was worth preserving, just not in tandem with the thing to make it truly dangerous, than to suggest they incorporated a completely alien (to them) bit of genetic information into their own descendants because "...uh... fuck it, why not?"


Nothing to add to it!

View Original PostReichu wrote:Evas are cloned directly from Adam, and they don't have the S2 engine. "Well, it must have been deliberately engineered out!"


Not exactly. It's generally considered that the cloning process is straightforward (you create an exact copy of the being you have the sample), but this is a misconception. The medium in which the sample is replicated and incubated affects the outcome the most. In fact, this is the greatest challenge we have with the technology IRL. Without having the knowledge and absolute domain of the incubation medium, a "clone" can have the same genetic signature of the donor but not be biologically viable. Again IRL, a clone incubated on a different mother than the original donor is not an exact copy of it. They may have the same genome, but the expressed genes may change, and that's the main factor behind all the difficulties we face in this field.
In the eva-verse, it may be the main reason behind the differences between the Eva units, Adam and the Angels, and between Lilith, Eva-01 and the Lilin. Even possessing genetic samples from the Seeds, the conditions of the medium used for replication and incubation were hardly known, so it's expected that a lot of failures and incomplete results were to be produced. And it's precisely what we're shown:
1. The discarded Eva units on the graveyard;
2. The physical differences between the Units;
3. The alien forms of the Angels;

This points to different conditions on the replication and incubation processes. On Nerv's side, the lengthy process of finding out how to activate each gene, its impact on the outcome, how to express each desired characteristic, is not an easy task. Even if they were able to pinpoint which genes encoded the S2 organ on Adam's DNA, a whole lot of research and trial-and-error would have been needed to correctly cultivate a functional one. Thus, even if the Angels were almost 100% human on their genome, god knows which genes each one chose to activate and express with their AT Field! In this sense, the dichotomy presented by the X Seed is exposed: to either bestow a form, or let them choose their own. If the Fruit present dictates the path taken, then we can see one of the FoL's powers: being able to express desired genes on the incubation process - exactly what we see Sandalphon doing in the series!

So, even if there's physical differences between the Evas and Adam, or Eva-01 and Lilith, the presence of the same genes, expressed in different arrangements, cannot be ruled out - in fact, it can even be deduced and expected. The same can be said of the S2: the correct activation and expression of the necessary genes might have been the greatest challenge faced by Project E - understandable if we consider that the responsible genes were not seen anywhere in nature and they had samples from a single organism. After the Angels' awakening and eventual sampling, they eventually succeeded.

The point here is that the 1% of difference between Angels and Lilin DNA may encode the Fruit given to each species, but to artificially induce it to create a functional S2 organ may be though as hell.

Any thoughts on the matter, people? ^_^
Last edited by GuiBiancarelli on Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:34 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:On the one hand, this is a more coherent argument for the "two-fruited FAR" than anything else I've seen in the thread. But, on the other, I need to point out that there's no evidence that the FoL is "genetic". Evas are cloned directly from Adam, and they don't have the S2 engine. "Well, it must have been deliberately engineered out!" If that's the case, then the extreme interest in recovering a partly-intact S2 from an Angel makes absolutely no sense. Deliberately get rid of something, and then be desperate to recover that same thing, purely through luck? HUH??? Like, Seele had a sample of Adam right there! The original unaltered genome! They had Nerv trying to recover S2 engines from Angels before Kaji stole the bloody thing.

Now, alternatively, we know that the Evas not only are not born with souls, their souls come from Lilin. Angels, which ARE born with S2s, get their souls from Adam, who of course has the FoL. Meaning, the FoL is encoded on a spiritual level. This is substantiated by the phrasing used in Eva2. In terms of BOTH Fruits, they speak of a soul "eating" it. Spiritual attribute. This incidentally ties into this part from episode 20, as well:

Two birds with one stone here. The Evas can't generate the S2 on their own because they don't have the spiritual information, and Seele, quite logically, did not expect an Eva to get around this the way Yui did, i.e., through such physical means. But the body-soul connection means that, hypothetically, what she did isn't beyond the realm of possibility. (And, well, she DID pull it off, so...) She forcefully assimilated the organ from Zeruel, and with it inside her body it could be spiritually encoded within the record of self that every soul tirelessly keeps.

In any case, things get quite a bit weirder if what Lilin conceptualize as the "fruits" are actually some product of metaphysical tech that's been integrated into the Seeds, and aren't necessarily a fundamental attribute of the FAR at all. But I'm not sure how else you're supposed to explain them being something that a preexisting FAR soul "eats".


Genetic is probably the wrong word on my part, since, yes, the soul isn't just genetic information. Even so, we still have the fact that Adam was carrying souls from the FAR themselves, and yet these souls also carry the Fruit of Life. Yes, the possibility exists that Adam gave the Fruit to those souls herself, but that scenario involves:

-The FAR creating metaphysical biotech that can defy the laws of physics, and then NOT using it for themselves for some reason
-Adam and the other 2 Seeds being imbued with this process, but it being explicitly kept away from the other 4
-Those Seeds stripping the Fruit of Knowledge out of the souls they took on, despite the Fruit of Knowledge being a pretty key part of their race
-The Seeds finally adding the Fruit of Life to the souls they carry, at a point when it's not clear when (if ever) it will get put to use.

That seems like a very odd sequence of decisions for a race that discovered/created a way to uncouple life from the harshest limitations of the physical realm to make, when presumably they would have wanted to reap the benefits of that research.

As for SEELE gutting out the S2 engine and then experimenting with putting it back in... I've always gone with the interpretation that it's a control thing. Project E placed a lot of effort and resources into creating as much semblance of control over the Evas as possible, and despite all that, the first one they successfully made still has this nasty habit of going Berserk. Even Unit-01, who is generally more in line with her intended operating parameters, still occasionally does stuff that's well outside of intended. I mean, she managed to reactivate and curb stomp an Angel after her internal power ran out, something a few of the members of Nerv would assume was straight up not possible.

Give that thing a perpetual motion reactor when you can't guarantee you can keep it under wraps? Not a bloody chance. They called out the Jet Alone's makers for essentially doing the same thing. That's presumably why they still hook Unit-01 up with an umbilical cable when she obviously doesn't need it anymore. The only reason they allowed the Harpies free rein with S2 Engines was because 1) they were somehow able to completely subjugate them, and 2) they really didn't have much Choice at that point if they actually wanted Instrumentality to get done.

View Original PostReichu wrote:And also, again: if the FAR themselves thought that the Fruits being together was "truly dangerous", why did the object which they themselves programmed not do a single thing to prevent Yui's apotheosis? Nor did the Spear do anything against Lilith, who had incorporated both into her body. The Spear is supposed to be the FAR's watchdog, but it fails utterly at carrying out what is, supposedly, one of the FAR's most basic tenets? Either you have to make up some excuse for the FAR's transcendental technology failing at the entrance exam -- or, more simply, the idea that the two Fruits being in one place necessarily foments disaster is just Lilin adding their own slant to the proceedings, which is nothing terribly new. Why is the idea that the FAR themselves originated the "forbidden fusion" stuff taken as gospel? :???:


I mean... obviously they didn't want it to be impossible of there's way more they could have done to prevent it, but it's clearly not intended to be the norm either. Separating the 2 Fruits between different Seeds and then drafting a rule saying 2 Seeds with different Fruits can't go to the same planet suggests they really didn't want an entire race of dual-fruit beings as part of their legacy. Hell, even under your interpretation Lilith decided to usurp Adam rather than work with her to produce a race with both Fruits, which presumably would have been the most beneficial path for them both, which suggests a being meant to be a foundation of the pinnacle of sapient life... just kinda got tricked by a weird Prisoner's Dilemma.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:54 pm

Guess we just have to agree to disagree. I don't see any possible reconciliation here.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:58 pm

I'm not trying to push us into a position where we can't have an honest discussion, I'm just having a hard time reasoning out why the FAR would come into possession of the Fruit of Life and then go out of their way to not integrate it with the Fruit of Knowledge.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:46 pm

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:I'm not trying to push us into a position where we can't have an honest discussion, I'm just having a hard time reasoning out why the FAR would come into possession of the Fruit of Life and then go out of their way to not integrate it with the Fruit of Knowledge.


Same here. As I said before, the healthy discussion in order to find out the most probable explanation to the case is a mental challenge I enjoy. It's not my intention to create any form of unease here, by any means.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:19 pm

First, I concur with what Reichu said about the FAR ultimately being all too human.

In fact, right alongside the notion that NGE's story is the story of man itself, thus the SDSCs being the literature that would inspire world religions (evidenced by Shinji questioning the notion of fighting Angels and acknowledging the belief in God in ep. 11 and the presence of an actual church in ep. 16) via crude interpretations, linguistic development, the passage of time obscuring things, plain old human error etc. being meta commentary on how an anime show can be placed on a dogmatic pedestal, then it could be argued that the FAR represent the Creators... of the show. As in Anno, Gainax, etc.

Afterall, it's said that the Evangelion is the pinnacle of man's existence, eternal proof that he ever existed. Again, going meta here, what if this was a "pretentious" assertion about the series itself? Again, this goes along the lines of obsessive fans treating a show like a great gospel. Anno just took it a step further by being both figurative and literal and somewhere in between (within the show's context). And he villainizes such a practice with SEELE being extremists for escapism.


More to the point. In story, what if the great calamity that arose was some kind of technological race war where one side bred themselves on a spiritual-genetic level on the basis of the FoL and the other the FoK? It would certainly tie into the idea of "man's greatest enemy is man himself" and Thanatos' lyric "we're not the same."

From there, at the moment of imminent annihilation, the two factions could've compromised to leave their dead planet on the basis of remaining eternally separated like "a woman far away."

Because of these kinds of divisions and an unwillingness to resolve our differences to the point of destroying one another, NGE is a very human story through and through from the FAR to the Seeds to the Angels and Evas all the way to the Lilin.
Last edited by SawItAtAge10 on Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
FROM EVANGELION:
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"I'm saying that I love you."

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"You are excrement. You can change yourself into gold."

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:28 am

View Original PostSawItAtAge10 wrote:First, I concur with what Reichu said about the FAR ultimately being all too human.

In fact, right alongside the notion that NGE's story is the story of man itself, thus the SDSCs being the literature that would inspire world religions (evidenced by Shinji questioing the notion of fighting Angels and acknowledging the belief in God in ep. 11 and the presence of an actual church in ep. 16) via crude interoretations, linguistic development, the passage of time obscuring things, etc. being meta commentary on how an anime show can be placed on a dogmatic pedestal, then it could be argued that the FAR represent the Creators... of the show. As in Anno, Gainax, etc.

Afterall, it's said that the Evangelion is the pinnacle of man's existence, eternal proof that he ever existed. Again, going meta here, what if this was a "pretentious" assertion about the series itself? Again, this goes along the lines of obsessive fabs treating a show like a great gospel. Anno just took it a step further by being both figurative and literal and somewhere in between. And he villainizes such a practice with SEELE being extremists for escapism.


More to the point. In story, what if the great calamity that arose was some kind of technological race war where one side bred themselves on a spiritual-genetic level on the basis of the FoL and the other the FoK? It would certainly tie into the idea of "man's greatest enemy is man himself" and Thanatos' lyric "we're not the same."

From there, at the moment of imminent annihilation, the two factions could've comprised to leave their dead planet on the basis of remaining eternally separated like "a woman far away."

Because of these kinds of divisions and an unwillingness to resolve our differences to the point of destroying one another, NGE is a very human story through and through from the FAR to the Seeds to the Angels and Evas all the way to the Lilin.


Hmmm... And then maybe the FoK faction used their technology to build the carriers, the FoL used the Anti-AT to release the souls, someone rigged some preexistent weapon or tool to make a failsafe of sorts to go along (just in case) and that's it. But by the time to finish all up and take off, one of the sides took offense of something, or tried to get some advantage, and we've got 1st Impact. Conflict between the two different humanities starts all over...
By the end of EoE, Yui takes off carrying both Fruits and a Spear, and a new dilemma: to just lie as a monument, an ark carrying the legacies; or to set up camp in another planet and risk to start over, even knowing the strong possibility of restarting the cycle :emogendo:

Ok, fan-wanking aside, the division of the Fruits by factions of the FAR takes into account the duality exposed in the show, the different aspects of the carrier system, and even seems to explain the conflicting interpretations we have here in meta. Improvising the Spear-failsafe from something already in use by the FAR seems to explain the not-so-reliable behavior of it, and the thematic of the conflicts (FAR-FoK vs FAR-FoL, Lilith vs Adam, Lilin vs Angels, Seele vs Nerv) falls in line with the presented by the show. We can even link it to the 1st AND 2nd Ancestral Races cited in the original proposal.

@SawItAtAge10, I think this is the most elegant hypothesis we have so far!

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:29 am

View Original PostGuiBiancarelli wrote:@SawItAtAge10, I think this is the most elegant hypothesis we have so far!


Thanks. I've had something 20 years to mull Evangelion over in my head Lol And I still feel like I'm barely scratching the surface with the more "advanced" aspects of the show such as the vague backstory mythos. Thematically speaking, we're not supposed to get so caught up in the deeper sci-fi narrative. But approaching it this way does tie into the bigger idea of communication breaking down between people and how destructive divisiveness can be.

As I've said, it took me a while to get my head around the meta approach. But this is a good primmer for how I look at the FAR/SSDSCs as being the point of origin for human language, culture, religions, etc.It can be found here:

http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/17559/ ... vangelion/

This is another good one that sort of reflects my earlier reasoning to show how I got to viewing the nature of series with the FAR, etc.:

search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&author_id=7104&start=320


All of this being said, I do think that the FAR were humans who reached a certain point of great technological advancement. Their greatest achievement likely culminated in the creation of the Super Solenoid engine. Using the infinite energy as a resource they likely were then able to tap into and harness the limitations of biology and metaphysical biology. Thus, the the FoK would lead to, by way of natural evolutionary processes/limitations, etc. to the FoL by way of invention. Then, from there, it could be extrapolated that the hypothetical race war arose before the planet reached past critical and the entirety of the remaining FAR bailed via a two party compromise of FoK and For based Seeds with each one containing a Chambering roflcopters Guf with billions of souls. Interestingly, it would seem that the Angels (the "Fruits") were carriers within the carrier...Maybe..

I do wonder if the inherent control souls were ordinary people akin to Yui or Kyoko. Or if it was more of pilot situation. (I imagine an adult looking Rei named Lilith who has red eyes and white hair as an example of such a person, same with an adult looking Kaworu named Adam. In fats, the FAR, being ordinary people could've been a collective race of white haired, red eyed people...).

I am curious, what is the source for the idea that Lilith intentionally caused 1st Impact by going after Adam and her FoL? A link to that specific info would be great.
FROM EVANGELION:
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"I'm saying that I love you."

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:58 am

View Original PostSawItAtAge10 wrote:I am curious, what is the source for the idea that Lilith intentionally caused 1st Impact by going after Adam and her FoL? A link to that specific info would be great.


It's told by Lilith herself in NGE2, specifically on Rei's scenario, as (wonderfully) translated by @Reichu.
There's a post containing it somewhere on this very topic, in any case follows the link to the YouTube video: https://youtu.be/gn6med28mqg (all credits to @Reichu)

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:24 pm

View Original PostGuiBiancarelli wrote:It's told by Lilith herself in NGE2, specifically on Rei's scenario, as (wonderfully) translated by @Reichu.
There's a post containing it somewhere on this very topic, in any case follows the link to the YouTube video: https://youtu.be/gn6med28mqg (all credits to @Reichu)


Okay perfect. This aligns with my theory on Lilith/Rei's rebellious willfulness then. In that regard, she really is all woman then, and in the immortal words of Ritusko "stays a woman right down to very let second." I have to assume that Lilith burning off after Adam was a last minute deviation from the plan, just as Rei III's betrayal of Gendo in EoE was also a last minute betrayal as well...

And yes, I do mean in this in the context of Naoko's female paradigm for how she designed the Magi.

From the wiki:

"Magi-1: Melchior: Dr. Naoko Akagi as a scientist;
Magi-2: Balthasar: Dr. Naoko Akagi as a mother;
Magi-3: Casper: Dr. Naoko Akagi as a woman."

Scientist, Mother and Woman....Well, that order follows the creation of the Evas as well when one looks at the timeline - Yui (CE 1) - Unit 01, Kyoko (CE 2) - Unit 02, and Rei ("CE 3") - Unit 00

*CE = Contact Experiment

Scientist. Now, Yui growing up in SEELE (is Kiel her father?) would've been brought upon the doctrine of how "evil" science is and that the quest for knowledge is a destructive path vs. a more spiritual pursuit (the 2nd impact video for ep. 21's DC edit pretty much spells this out). Naturally, it would seem that the quest for such power through forbidden knowledge is precisely what Yui would be after.

Now, I know what you're thinking "Hold up, Yui is the very embodiment of motherhood, isn't she?" Let's not get too ahead of ourselves here. When we first actually meet Yui in the flesh in episode 21's flashbacks, she's framed within the context of being a scents who just wrote a pair on meta biology. Only when she goes to talk with Fiyutski does she mention thinking about having children. And this, is the start of her "Look at me. I'm a nice girl with ambitions of throwing out my career aspirations for career pursuits in favor of being a barefoot and pregnant stay at home waifu." Again, growing up in SEELE, she already knows the score with 2nd Impact and the impending 3rd Impact all the way back in 1999. She's playing the part of what Gillian Flynn's Amy Dunn would call "Cool Girl." In fact, she does with both Fiyutski and (one can assume) manipulations against Gendo. Consider her and Fiyutski's lakeside conversation...It's almost as if she's using Shinji as a prop, both there and in the lab (where she vanishes during the CE) to say "Look at me, I'm such a good mom." But going first for the at pursuit with the Unit 01 CE is somewhat reflective of Eve going first in Genesis to eat of the fruit in pursuit of Knowledge....

And her dark side and true intent comes about with the films way she utilizes the berserk mode, especially in EoE where she seemingly waits for Unit 01 to be vanquished. And her quest is completed when she achieves ultimate power via knowledge when she re-emerges from the Adam?Lilith gestalt at the end. Interesting, she emerges from the third eye. Now this could be seen as symbolic of a the "all seeing eye" as in omniscience (again "all KNOWING). PLUS, it's reminiscent of Athena who was the goddess of war and wisdom in Greek mythology. She emerged from Zeus' forehead fully formed. Thus, Yui intentionally sacrificed her old life, her marriage, her son, the conceit of motherhood and a desolate earth in pursuit of power derived from esoteric knowledge. She saved nothing and scarified everything for her own selfish desires and pays the ultimate price of floating off into space alone forever.


Motherhood. Now Kyoko and Unit 02. This one is fairly straight forward. Here we get the mechanics behind soul fragmenting. For some reason or another, the cores of the Evas take in the maternal aspect of a soul as their central functioning component. This happened by accent with Kyoko and she came back incomplete and crazy. After her suicide, it's possible that the rets was put into Unit 02 to make it more stable. The realization that the true part of her mother that is her mother and deeply loves her only comes to Asuka during that final battle. Unfortunately, the overpowering MPEs make it all too late. And Unit 02 is subsequently torn to shreds. Interestingly, it's like the concept of motherhood is depicted here as not only being put on the chopping block, but symbolically sacrificed in a ritualistic way. We see the desecrated offering as Unit 01 makes her ascent. Plus, this lines up with Misato's line "I wasn't able to be a mother to Shinji after all..." In fact, given her pervasive sexuality and that last interaction...That would be...


Womanhood. Now, let's talk about Rei. "Self as a woman" when discussing Lilith/Rei going to be the most complicated. Consider Lilith in the Talmud (an older version of the Bible). She gets kicked out because she wants to have sex where she's on top of Adam during (makes me think of the scene in EoE when Shinji and Rei are in the sea of LCL and she's straddling him). Also in the Talmudic legend, unlike Eve, Lilith was created from dust EQUALLY the same as Adam and separately from him vs being made from him via his rib.

Then, there's her interaction with Naoko. Her demise comes at the hands of jealous woman over a man. Then, with Unit 00, that Rei I fragment resides within the Eva. But Rei II pilots it. So that's a form of autonomy, Rei is her own master in that sense, she just doesn't know it yet. It takes her dying for Rei III to figure it. Thus, we get her last minute betrayal after Rituko is betrayed by...Caspar (Naoko's "Self as a Woman.") The trifecta of the three: Naoko > Ritsuko > Rei is important here as they are succession of "Yui substitutes" that get progressively younger. Same can be said of the trifecta of Lilith, Unit 01 and Rei or Rei, Yui and Unit 01. And the obvious Rei I, Rei II and Rei III.

Rei I is Lilith in her purest form as a Lilin. She's very open and even combative to the competition the "old hag." Rei II is essentially broken, not only by Rei I's death, but mad embrue docile by Lilth's soul fragmentation between her and Unit 00. Unit 00's destruction reunites them for Rei III.

Jealousy over a man shows its head again when Ritsuko kills the other remaining Rei clones. Then, she tries one more time only to be betrayed by Caspar. Thus, in favor of a different man (Shinji) Rei III makes her own choice to pilot herself in a different way by "growing up" from girl to woman (the absolute woman here) by rejoining her soul with Lilith's body.

And so, Lilith FINALLY makes it on top. Adam's there too, but Lilith/Rei is dominating the situation. She's now riding this pony and running the show. Hence, why the MPEs grotesquely morph into her and Adam's spear now obeys and bends to her will for initiating 3rd Impact/Instrumentality by opening Unit 01's core to connect with Lilith's Chamber of Guf and reform the Tree of Life. That is, until, she hands the reigns to Shinji who subsequently ends the world and rebirths it through his own psycho dramatic experiences leading to and within Instrumentality. And after all that, Rei makes one more appearance before vanishing again to pursue her own cosmic-quantum pursuits or whatever it was she wanted...Again she appears to Shinji as "a woman far away" on a "distance shore." Actually as a "siprit hovering over the waters."

So, it took her a few billion years and loads of setbacks and confusion, but Lilith did accomplish her goals of getting that FoL and stopping Adam in every way possible. And she sent her offspring into space as a hybrid of her and Adam. Now, is that a FAR that Unit 01 became? Now, Yui/Unit 01 is fundamentally a new creature that the series hadn't seen before. Maybe something akin to an Angel seeing as she as her won S2 organ, but with the FoK + FoL, perhaps even more than that...The long flowing blue hair definitely indicates that she can manipulate her form like Angels can, and that she's a giant naked "Rei" with long flowing blue hair underneath all that armor. Before, the amor only covered a monster, but the Gestalt being was like a chrysalis and the beautiful butterfly emerged at the end of Instrumentality.

Question I guess then is, what happened to this ascended Rei III/Lilith then and where did she go? That answer is as mysterious and esoteric as the nature of women in general (at least this is the sentiment I feel that NGE/EoE is trying to convey).
FROM EVANGELION:
"Acts of Man are greater than acts of God!"

"I'm saying that I love you."

NOT FROM EVANGELION:
"You are excrement. You can change yourself into gold."


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