AAA WUNDER was built by the FAR?!

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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AAA WUNDER was built by the FAR?!

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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:31 pm

The very bottom of the Nadia portion of this page
https://wiki.evageeks.org/Gainax:_Evang ... 3.82.A2.29
states that the AAA WUNDER was built by the First Ancestral Race, in reference to Nadia's Neo Nautilus being built by Atlanteans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXzEcwYs8Eo

WHERE on EARTH could this borderline guesswork have even potentially come from? The Evageeks wiki page for AAA WUNDER itself doesn't mention this at all. Literally the only things we know for certain about the ship is that it's massive, it runs on Eva or other Seed power (if Mark.09 even is derived from one of the Seeds), and it may have been originally designed to retrieve the Adams from Antarctica, with guns and flight added as defense and evasion. As far as speculation goes, I've only ever seen it theorized that the ship was built by either NERV, SEELE, or that Eva Protection Agency group I can find nothing on for some reason, and then stolen by WILLE. Someone please, what the hell is this?
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Re: AAA WUNDER was built by the FAR?!

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Postby Sachi » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:26 pm

The Wunder is clearly a case of humans attempting to harness found technology rather than something they came up with on their own. The biggest clue to this is the Mark 09, referred to as a "Vessel of the Adams", attempting to regain control over the Wunder as its original master. The Adams themselves were salvaged by Nerv and Seele to create Evangelions 06 and 13, and it's very likely Unit-01 is an Adam as well. Whatever the original form of the Wunder and Mark 09 was, it was something that was associated with the Adams and probably found along with one. If one can accept that the Spears are ancient FAR technology containing their own souls, it shouldn't at all be a stretch to believe the Wunder is the same and that it was discovered by humanity and experimented on. The core was stripped to create Mark 09, and the remaining body was repurposed into the AAA Wunder which then required Unit-01 as an alternate energy source.

To suggest that the Wunder was entirely man-made, one would have to ignore everything we know about Mark 09, its role as the Vessel of the Adams and as the original master of the Wunder.
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Re: AAA WUNDER was built by the FAR?!

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Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:51 pm

View Original PostAdamMalkovitch wrote:WHERE on EARTH could this borderline guesswork have even potentially come from?
It appeared in the last significant edit to that page, just over 2 years ago. There's nothing that recent on the discussion page.
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Re: AAA WUNDER was built by the FAR?!

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Postby Reichu » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:31 pm

The FAR and the Seeds cannot be assumed to exist in the new movies. It's rubbish speculation that doesn't belong in the wiki. Or really anywhere, for that matter. Killing it.

(There IS a joke in the Eva2 game where something implied to be the Nautilus has been found and gets attributed to the FAR, but that's neither here nor there...)

On a side note, many Nadia reference in Q that have been pointed out on the forum never made it to the page, including the very egregious ones to the Tower of Babel. I have my hands full right now, but if anyone else wants to tackle it...

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On the nature of Mark 09 and the AAA Wunder, and their relationship with the Adams

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:10 pm

Thinking about the true nature of the Wunder and its "original master", the Mark 09, I've come to the following conclusions:

- We are told that the Mark 09 is "Wunder's original master";
- We know that Wille needed a power-source of sorts to make the Wunder fully functional;
- We are told that the Mark 09 is comprised completely of Core material;
- We know that a Core is a vital part of an Angel's body and anatomy, responsible for its AT Field generation;

Hence, I'm led to believe that the Mark 09 is, in reality, the stripped Core of the Wunder and its original power-source. In that way, the original "Vessel of Adams" would be the entity comprised of the body of the Wunder plus its Core, now in the form of the Mark 09.

It's implied that an Angel can't exist without its Core, but the same proposition is not necessarily true for Adam-derived creatures, as seem in the scene showing the Unit 02 Core extraction right before it is vaulted.

So, in light of the conclusion above and with this later information, I therefore propose that the Vessel of Adams would be an Eva of sorts, a pseudo-creature made using Adam-based biology/technology with a specific end. In line with this, one can explain why it's not accounted on the Angels' listing and why it's not destroyed when it has its Core removed and, eventually, replaced by the cocoon containing Unit 01.

As evidence for this proposition, we can cite two main details:

- The "head" on the front of the Wunder resembles the head grown by the Mark 09 on the 4th Impact;
- The entry-plug design of its bridge;

On that second point, it's not implied that the entry-plug would be an original feature, but one added later, possibly after the Core removal. On the beginning of 2.22, during the fight between Eva 05 and the Third Angel, we are presented with an Angel which was "reduced to some bones" with an entry-plug of sorts dangling from its neck on Bethany Base. One could relate this with the "manufacturing" of the Wunder: using the data provided and the expertise acquired at Bethany, the Wunder could have been "skeletonized", have had an entry-plug fitted and have its Core removed, which would be later molded in the Mark 09.

If that is indeed correct, the name "Vessel of Adams" could imply that the original purpose of the Wunder would be a transport vehicle of sorts for the aforementioned Adams (maybe bringing them to Earth from someplace else), found and experimented upon by Nerv/Seele and stolen/used by Wille afterwards. In the absence of its original Angelic Core, the later would need a compatible power-source, hence the use of an awakened (albeit inactive) Unit 01.

Does anyone agree?

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Re: AAA WUNDER was built by the FAR?!

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:33 pm

Lots of good observations, GuiBiancarelli! I think you're pretty close to being on the right track with your line of thought here. There is one problem I need to point out, and it's not really anyone's fault -- it's just something that's been Lost in Translation.

So, “vessel” here is utsuwa (器), which means “vessel” in the sense of a “container” — something that exists to hold, or contain, something else. (A bowl, for instance. While, yes, a ship does hold things, this is not its primary function.) Mark.09 doesn't literally contain any of the Adams, so what could "vessel" be referring to? We're told by Asuka that Mark.09 is a core, and what’s a function that cores have traditionally served in Eva? They’re containers. For souls, and, if present, for the Fruit of Life as well.

So, based on the following:

  • This being is called an “Adams’ Vessel”.
  • It is also a core.
  • A core is a container/vessel for a soul.


…Mark.09 is the core of an Adams. Or was, once upon a time. Lilith knows what Seele did to it. If you're interested in exploring the matter further, this thread gets pretty in-depth and is worth skimming through for the highlights. Not that anyone has actually cracked this problem completely -- far from it. But in my experience, the "group effort" has always been integral to solving Eva's mysteries, so it helps to see what others have done.

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Re: AAA WUNDER was built by the FAR?!

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:04 am

Thanks for the clarification on the translation's meaning Reichu! I follow your logic, but kind of disagree on the conclusion that Mark 09 is an Adams' Core based on the following:

- Mark 09 is identified as being a Core;
- Mark 09 is identified as being "Wunder's original master";
- Wunder is lacking a Core at the beginning of 3.33, needing Eva 01 to fully function;

Thus, I'm assuming that Mark 09 is Wunder's original Core and, by extension, should contain its original soul. Assuming that logic to be correct, unless Wunder IS one of the 4 Adams, I don't see how it could be the Core of one of them.

I'm really not sure on the original purpose of the Wunder, so I'm only guessing here, but assuming the relationship with Mark 09 explained above and, consequently, its status as a "container" for the Adams, one can safely think that it could be a "vessel" in the same sense that Unit 01 is a vessel for Yui's soul, and in NGE, the Moons would be vessels for the souls of the FAR - thus my proposition that Wunder would be the Adams' Eva or transportation, or something related.
@Reichu, do you know if the term used to describe Mark 09 (utsuwa, in this case) is used in any other part of the films or even the show? Perhaps the context applied to it could give us some insight on the matter.

Any thoughts?

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Re: AAA WUNDER was built by the FAR?!

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:43 am

It's used in Explanation of Evangelion 1.01: "Entry plug, the vessel of a soul". As I mentioned, the term utsuwa means that the primary function is to hold something, so the "transportation for Adams" idea really doesn't work. Since, in that case, the primary function is transportation; carrying somebody around is a means to achieve the transportation, not the end unto itself.

Eva-01 has the body of an Adams and is able to serve the role of Wunder's core. It doesn't merely provide power, as Mark.09's intervention demonstrates; Eva-01 is necessary to make Wunder function at all. The fact that the crew need to rely on the Eva so completely is, in my opinion, a hint as to how Wunder originally worked. In other words, the Wunder isn't supposed to have its own core; a "pilot" is supposed to provide that. Wunder's design subtly hints that it is basically an Evangelion, but for a giant; and since, unlike Lilin, the expected pilot would have a core, one does not need to exist separately. Mark.09 being an original Adams' core that's been separated from its body and transformed could explain the "original master" thing, too. Eva-01 has an Adams' body, but not necessarily an Adams' core. (The core that Yui dives into lacks the characteristic "core particle effect" -- which Mark.09 does have -- and could be an artificial blank prepared specifically for the experiment; we never see another core quite like it anywhere else in the movies.) The Wunder might cooperate with Eva-01 because of its Adamsian body, but "core-tech" is definitely a thing in the universe of the films, and the data in an original Adams core could have the ability to supersede the control of mere flesh.

Also, in case you weren't aware, Mk.9 isn't just "Adams' Vessel", but the First Adams' Vessel. (Its expanded designation was released on merch, and it will likely be in the CRC whenever that comes out.) This indicates that there are more of them, or there could potentially be, which doesn't cooperate so well with a "Wunder's core" reading, but does work with an "Adams' core" one, since there are four Adams, and thus four potential Adams' Vessels. On top of that, Japanese has the ability to be quite ambiguous, so when Ritsuko talks about "Adams' Vessel" being "Wunder's true master", we only assume she's referring solely to the entity we see because we, the audience, aren't aware of any others; however, the Japanese does not actually specify whether she is speaking specifically or more generally. In other words, she could be referring to multiple 'vessels" who are all the 'original masters'.

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Re: AAA WUNDER was built by the FAR?!

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:27 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:It's used in Explanation of Evangelion 1.01: "Entry plug, the vessel of a soul".


Thanks for the response!
I'm trying to follow a deductive logic (in opposition to an inductive approach) here, so let me follow up:

- We know that Mark 09 is identified as "Vessel of Adams";
- The other mention of the term "vessel" (in the original language) was referring to an object which contains a non-physical entity (a soul);

So, it would be correct to assume that the Adams which the sentence is referring to, MAY NOT BE a set of physical entities (in the case of NTE, the 4 giants of light), but to non-physical ones. The implication of this assumption may be that the Adams are not necessarily the giants which are associated with the 2nd Impact.
However, we are presented with an actual physical entity which is directly stated to be "one of the surviving Adams" and which fits the description of the giants, it being the Eva 13.
This would be a contradiction, but as we're talking about Evangelion, it can mean a whole bunch of things... Let's explore the possibilities:

a. The Adams are 4 giant beings and the Mark 09/Wunder was their physical container (whatever they used it for);
b. The Adams are souls and the Mark 9/Wunder was the physical Core which contained them;
c. The Adams are entities comprised of both and the Mark 09/Wunder contained just one of their aspects;

I'm sorry if I'm being pedantic, but since the language seems to be an obstacle on the proper understanding and interpretation of these facts, I'm forced to ask:
@Reichu, based on your knowledge of the original idiom, the expression "Vessel of Adams" as presented in Japanese could mean "a vessel which contained the Adams", or "a vessel which did belong to the Adams", both of the options, or another possibility?
I ask this because the answer could eliminate one or two of the above hypothesis, or launch another line of questioning (maybe in line with your proposition of the Adams' souls currently residing on the pilots).

Thanks in advance!

EDIT: When I wrote this post, the only thing showing on my browser was your first line, for some reason. I'm reading the complete post now and will reply latter :)

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Re: AAA WUNDER was built by the FAR?!

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:18 pm

Ok, been trying to decipher the Japanese subs from 3.33 with limited success... Please, check if this is correct:

- The phrasing means "vessel of Adams", as in "bowl of rice". So, in some way, the Mark 09 had Adams (singular or plural) "inside" it;
- Ritsuko's phrase does not indicate if that specific Adams' Vessel was Wunder's original master, it may be that one or a set of likes;
- Asuka refers to its whole body being Core, but we're left wondering if it is a Core in the sense of an Angel's Core or merely being Core material (like the rest of the world after 3rd Impact);
- We see it functioning after ReiQ ejects from it, so it might be indication that it houses a soul or dummy system making it move;
- Mari alerts ReiQ to the possibility of "turning into" Adams Vessel. We're left wondering if she means absorbed like Yui, or "Corefied" like the rest of the world;

In light of this, I concede that the proposition of the Wunder being a transportation for the Adams is unlikely, Reichu's analysis likening it to an Eva makes much more sense!


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