L-Barrier & Coreification

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L-Barrier & Coreification

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Postby wiser3754 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:41 pm

In the 3.0 + 1.0 preview Wille is attempting to access Euro Nerv Paris via a anti L (barrier) device to punch a hole through the L barrier densiry in and around Paris.

I'm sure the observant have noticed Paris is near perfectly intact before and after the operation commences. There are no cars or bikes for that matter that have been upturned or buildings that have been destroyed. There are also no FOI anywhere or landmass that have been disfigured or modeled after human anatomy.

My question, is the L barrier just as it is, a barrier? Was it meant to contain the spread of "Core" from Tokyo-3 outwards? In the entire dialogue for Avant "Core" is never mentioned. Unless of course translation errors are again apparent.
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Re: L barrier va Core

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:41 pm

The "L-Barrier" appears to be some sort of effect generated by the coreified land. It makes the environment toxic to ordinary lifeforms and it's the reason the Wunder stays at a distance above the city until the core effect is removed. The Anti-L System is what removes the core effect and the L-Barrier in turn. Sealing pillars such as the one that Maya and her team activate could possibly be used to contain core-rosion, though these don't seem to play any role in keeping Eva-01's core-rosion effect from spreading; only the proper container is necessary. I'm not sure we really have enough information. Finding out what the "L" actually stands for would probably be a big help.

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Re: L barrier va Core

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Postby robersora » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:44 pm

^
I was thinking, maybe the L is the same L from LCL?
Also, at the beginning of Evangelion 1.11, we see a huge outline on what looks like core-ified land... Which makes me think. Did they plan this all back then already?
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Re: L barrier va Core

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Postby wiser3754 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:15 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The "L-Barrier" appears to be some sort of effect generated by the coreified land. It makes the environment toxic to ordinary lifeforms and it's the reason the Wunder stays at a distance above the city until the core effect is removed. The Anti-L System is what removes the core effect and the L-Barrier in turn. Sealing pillars such as the one that Maya and her team activate could possibly be used to contain core-rosion, though these don't seem to play any role in keeping Eva-01's core-rosion effect from spreading; only the proper container is necessary. I'm not sure we really have enough information. Finding out what the "L" actually stands for would probably be a big help.


If the coreified land is toxic to ordinary life forms Asuka, Shinji and Rei don't seem affected by it at high concentrations inside Tokyo-3.
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Re: L barrier va Core

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Postby robersora » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:31 pm

^
Asuka kinda adresses this at the end of 3.33. We think, the "curse of Eva" might be related to this.
My theory is, since Paris' time seemed to stand still, maybe being corefied freezes your time so maybe the curse of Eva makes the children are codified, which is why they don't age.
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Re: L barrier va Core

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:58 pm

View Original Postrobersora wrote:^
we see a huge outline on what looks like core-ified land... Which makes me think. Did they plan this all back then already?

That's "blood" from Second Impact. More details here:

https://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_An ... Silhouette

Core-ification doesn't just make things red -- it makes them CORE. The films use a particular animated texture effect to indicate whether something is a core (or "made of core"). Since cores are red and red compresses so badly, less obvious examples of the texture are going to be one of the first things lost in an encode. You need to be viewing a Blu-Ray source directly, in many cases. :emogendo: In any case, that animated texture provides a simple way to distinguish between LCL (i.e., the "blood" that Angels dissolve into, which seems to be effectively the same stuff as 'core', just in a lifeless liquid form) and core.

Regarding the curse of Eva, and exactly what the Children are, my Adams/Children thread in the main Rebuild subforum addresses this. The thread is a pretty thorough treatment that weaves together a huge amount of evidence, so it provides a good base for further speculah IMO.

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Re: L barrier va Core

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Postby Caroline L.S. » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:48 am

The "red land", "Core, LCL" whataever might behave in a simillar way like tiberium in Command and Conquer games. It is probably of a extraterestrial origin and "teraforms" the earth for the angel based life.

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Re: L barrier va Core

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Postby Alaska Slim » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:13 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:The "L-Barrier" appears to be some sort of effect generated by the coreified land. It makes the environment toxic to ordinary lifeforms

Just like Tiberium. :|

It causes electromagnetic interference, you can harness it as a power source, it spontaneously creates/mutates life, it's the stock & trade of a Stateless society... goddammit...

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Re: L barrier va Core

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:39 am

Another comparison to make, perhaps a little closer to home for Eva, is with the Toxic Jungle from Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind. (Anno was a key frame animator for the film and an avowed fan of the manga.) There, the land was converted into a form unusable for humanity and inhabited with legions of giant insects, including the many-eyed super-intelligent Ohmu, that both facilitated the jungle's spread and prevented humans from taking back the land. Of course, in the end, the Toxic Jungle turned out to be a human-created solution for the human-created problem of severe environmental pollution; its true purpose was to purify the land so that people could live there safely once more.

BlueBasilisk pointed out to me that the coreification creates not only a shout-out to Nausicaa, but a callback to to the "Purification of the Red Earth" from EoE. There, the entire world was being reduced to the same wasteland of lifelessness as the South Pole, of which we had once been told:

View Original PostEpisode 12 wrote:FUYUTSUKI:
The South Pole, a world of death which permits no life to exist.
Or should I simply call it Hell?
(...)
This is a greater punishment than we deserve.
This is truly the Dead Sea.

IKARI:
Yet this is a world that has been purified, purged of the original sin.

FUYUTSUKI:
I'd prefer a world where people live, no matter how stained with sin.


And here, we have the version of that interchange from the new movies:

Eva 2.0 wrote:FUYUTSUKI:
This is our Mother Earth?
It pains me just to look.
     
GENDO:
Yes, but there are those who desired this outcome.
A world untainted by original sin that no man may enter.
     
FUYUTSUKI:
I prefer a chaotic world that's been soiled by man.
     
GENDO:
Chaos is in the eye of the beholder.
The world is always comprised of harmony and order.
     
FUYUTSUKI:
The human heart is at fault for the world's corruption?


Exactly what "original sin" might have been was never quite explored (to my knowledge) in the original Eva, but in the films the concept of "sin" is rather more prominent. (Some discussion about "original sin" here.) It might actually be possible to figure out what this "original sin" is, or, otherwise, the films are leading in the direction of us having that information. And the coreification of Earth would serve as a fusion of the Toxic Jungle and the Red Earth Purification -- it's a solution that was engineered by humans to fix a very human problem. In this case, we similarly have the "solution" (Toxic Jungle / Red Earth) being protected by legions of massive engineered entities, complete with airborne Mk.4 that fill the niche of Nausicaa's swarms of giant flying insects, and the 4444Cs with their positron cannon even reference the eyes of the Ohmu...

SPOILER: Show
Image

Image


And we've been very explicitly told that these Eva Mark.04s wandering the wastes -- or, at least, the ones that haven't "gone native" -- are under the command of Fuyutsuki, meaning he has a vested interest in keeping Earth in its current state. Which makes his words in Q take on whole new layers of meaning, since now we can start to impose Fuyutsuki's own motivations onto them, rather than just be limited to their applications for Shinji's situation:

Eva 3.33 wrote:FUYUTSUKI:
Breaking apart the world is a trivial matter.
Rebuilding it, however, is not so easy.
As with time itself, the course of the world cannot be reversed.
Nor can the human heart.
That is why your father is sacrificing
everything to make his wish come true.
Including his very soul.


As with Nausicaa, I suspect this may be going in a direction where a very harsh solution is used to make a clean break with humanity's tainted past. In Nausicaa, the purified future was obviously not something that all humans were going to get to enjoy -- most were going to be killed by the solution itself, and they were ultimately going to be replaced with a new and improved version of humanity anyway. It's unclear whether or not Gendo and Fuyutsuki intend to also "improve humanity" as part of their scheme -- it certainly can't be ruled out, since we've been told to expect a Final Impact -- but in the very least it seems that they are quite willing to sacrifice vast numbers of people in an "ends justify the means" sort of way.

EDIT: Forgot to reply to this earlier.

wiser3754 wrote:In the entire dialogue for Avant "Core" is never mentioned. Unless of course translation errors are again apparent.

See my cleaned-up dialogue here. "Core" is mentioned at the beginning of the scene. (In the audio, listen for the term "koa-ka", literally "core-ification".)

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Re: L-Barrier & Coreification

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Postby kuribo-04 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:39 am

Wouldn't the L in Anti-L mean Lilin?
It seems like its point is to eliminate all normal Lilin that have not evolved to Failures of Infinity. A reset of the world.

Weird that nobody seemed to evolve in Paris. It's all empty.
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Re: L-Barrier & Coreification

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Postby Sgt. Griff » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:42 am

I recall in another thread somewhere that people had an issue with how coreification could have spread out from Central Dogma when ostensibly the situation down there had been contained. I wonder if the core self-replicates, infecting the area around it which goes on to infect the area around it etc. I don't know if the canon on this has changed form NGE to NTE but we knew back then that the cores are capable of creating (possibly) limitless energy, so the idea of core creating more of itself isn't exactly out of the question.

In this situation there wouldn't need to be a ground zero constantly creating core. It would initially be needed but after a while (a short time, even) it's feasible that the source of the core could be reverted back to normal ground while the rest of the infection keeps spreading.

This brings up another barely related question: if the entire earth is core, and core is a generator, how many watts can the earth generate? :emogendo:
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Re: L-Barrier & Coreification

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:32 am

kuribo-04: You've got it in reverse. As I pointed out earlier, "Anti-L" refers to the effects of the pillar that Maya et al. activate. Anti-L ELIMINATES the core effect. The L-Barrier, hostile to Lilin, is the RESULT of core-ification.

Weird that nobody seemed to evolve in Paris. It's all empty.

The whole "people turning into little Evas that merge into bigger Evas" thing doesn't seem like it reached very far. The most well-developed FoIs are at the epicenter of Third Impact; the Tokyo-3 outskirts have things that are recognizably armored Evas but pretty deformed; and Until You Come To Me shows that further out still, they're semi-transparent beings with no armor and visible skeletons. That's all within walking distance of Tokyo-3.

The core in Paris has the particle effect that suggests there's life inside it, so I'm guessing all life is simply absorbed by the stuff (like how Yui was completely absorbed by Eva-01's core), as a possible prelude to something new being born out from the core itself. The Anti-L system simply reverted the core to regular matter without restoring any lifeforms that it might have absorbed, which makes me wonder if Wille unwittingly destroyed all of the souls held in stasis at the center of Paris just so they could stock up on supplies...

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Re: L barrier va Core

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Postby Giji Shinka » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:04 am

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:Wouldn't the L in Anti-L mean Lilin?

Speaking of stuff related to L, in 1.0, Ritsuko mentions something about switching Unit-01's core unit to L-00 type.
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Re: L barrier va Core

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:31 am

View Original PostReichu wrote: Sealing pillars such as the one that Maya and her team activate could possibly be used to contain core-rosion, though these don't seem to play any role in keeping Eva-01's core-rosion effect from spreading; only the proper container is necessary.

The tesseract looks like it's made of the same black or black-ish material as the sealing pillar, which appears to be immune to the creeping core effect.

Wille might have used one of the pillars to inhibit Unit 01's core radiation when they're iced in at the beginning of 3.0. They were somehow able to get inside Unit 01 to retrieve Shinji and run sync tests and we see at least one of those pillars on a ship in the fleet.

Speaking of, when Asuka is igniting the engine, Ritsuko mentions some kind of barrier problem and Asuka has to use her AT Field. Was that the same term?
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Re: L barrier va Core

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Postby Giji Shinka » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:02 am

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:Wille might have used one of the pillars to inhibit Unit 01's core radiation when they're iced in at the beginning of 3.0.

This makes a lot of sense, I always wondered how they were able retrieve Shinji from the plug if unit-01 is made of that corrosive core material. This also probably confirms that the pillars are not a permanent solution to corefication, if it was, Unit-01 would not be corrupting EVa-02's arm during Wunder launch operation. (Or maybe it is a solution and Wille just reversed Unit-01 back to core form after retrieving Shinji in order to make Wunder function like a flying battleship)
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Re: L-Barrier & Coreification

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Postby one-eyed » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:30 am

Reichu wrote:
I suspect this may be going in a direction where a very harsh solution is used to make a clean break with humanity's tainted past. In Nausicaa, the purified future was obviously not something that all humans were going to get to enjoy -- most were going to be killed by the solution itself, and they were ultimately going to be replaced with a new and improved version of humanity anyway. It's unclear whether or not Gendo and Fuyutsuki intend to also "improve humanity" as part of their scheme -- it certainly can't be ruled out, since we've been told to expect a Final Impact -- but in the very least it seems that they are quite willing to sacrifice vast numbers of people in an "ends justify the means" sort of way.


Makes sense. The name has always been Human Instrumentality and not Human Apotheosis, Human Deification, Human Transcendence or Human Ascension. If you think well, even in NGE, Mankind has always been the last angel to be sacrificed to reach the endgame of Gendo and Seele ceremony. Every man, woman and child on Earth will have their mind, body and soul violated and transformed for the creation of something. All human beings have always been just cogs, tools, components and raw materials for Gendo and Seele to achieve their goals.

Reichu wrote: The whole "people turning into little Evas that merge into bigger Evas" thing doesn't seem like it reached very far. The most well-developed FoIs are at the epicenter of Third Impact; the Tokyo-3 outskirts have things that are recognizably armored Evas but pretty deformed; and Until You Come To Me shows that further out still, they're semi-transparent beings with no armor and visible skeletons. That's all within walking distance of Tokyo-3.


Could it be because they are getting further away from their place of birth? Or maybe closer to the sealing pillars or something like the aliens in the movie Evolution who died suffocated away from their environment until they could evolve to adapt?

Giji Shinka wrote: This makes a lot of sense, I always wondered how they were able retrieve Shinji from the plug if unit-01 is made of that corrosive core material. This also probably confirms that the pillars are not a permanent solution to corefication, if it was, Unit-01 would not be corrupting EVa-02's arm during Wunder launch operation.

This technology is very old in the movies. In the post-credits scenes of Ha there are several pillars around Unit 01 (The Eva was still impaled by the Spear of Cassius, then it occurred shortly after the second film) Gendo and Seele already had protocols for what happened , probably to recover the Spear and contain Eva. They had sealing posts everywhere and for all possible situations, including inside the Evas (except in Eva 01, of course, N3I was probably sabotage right from the start, but I doubt if Anno bothered to explain anything or that someone mind that.)

Sgt. Griff wrote: I don't know if the canon on this has changed form NGE to NTE but we knew back then that the cores are capable of creating (possibly) limitless energy, so the idea of core creating more of itself isn't exactly out of the question.

You made me wonder, did Gendo not use Eva 01 as a source of energy for years to enable Neo-Nerv's automation(or even the Wunder?)? It would take an absurd amount of energy to create the amount of Evas and Evalike monstrosities that Gendo and Fuyutsuki build and use and even automate the entire process.

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Re: L-Barrier & Coreification

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Postby robersora » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:34 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:kuribo-04: You've got it in reverse. As I pointed out earlier, "Anti-L" refers to the effects of the pillar that Maya et al. activate. Anti-L ELIMINATES the core effect. The L-Barrier, hostile to Lilin, is the RESULT of core-ification.


It does make sense, if you look at it like this: L-Barrier a barrier that keeps Lilin away.

EDIT: oh my. never meant Lilith, meant to say LILIN
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Re: L-Barrier & Coreification

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Postby ArvisTaljik » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:38 am

I'm curious though as to what caused world-wide corification.

Shinji's Near-Third Impact from 2.22 was halted by Kaworu, so that leaves the "missing" Impact Event that results from the fusion of Lilith, the Mark.06 and the 11th Angel, though that's also halted by the use of the twin spears (hence why they're "petrified" but intact down in central dogma in 3.33).

My personal take on "L-Barrier" is a bit more abstract:
L-Barrier refers more to a "field" or "effect" emitted by core material/LCL which is toxic to humans, much in the way carbon monoxide displaces oxygen in the lungs if it's inhaled. This would also be an "additive" or "cumulative" effect. Standing next to a pool of LCL in a contained facility likely has little to no effect on a human but being exposed to an entire wasteland covered in dried LCL would eventually cause a human to suffocate and die of asphyxiation. There may also be a significant difference in a human being around the liquid version and the dried version, in that the dried version may "flake off" and become airborne, thereby causing contamination and being deadly to humans.

My back-up/supposition on the matter:
NERV is shown to use LCL for a number of purposes, namely as coolant for the EVAs themselves and in an oxygenated form for filling entry plugs.
Considering that we see Ritsuko using an oxygen breathing tank while diving in LCL to do repairs/maintenance on the EVAs, we can surmise that LCL is not naturally oxygenated, but rather artificially so through the systems in the entry plug (otherwise she wouldn't need breathing gear while swimming in it).
We also see the NERV clean-up crews, Misato and Ritsuko in accompaniment, wearing environment suits while mopping up the messes made by the 4th and 5th angels after their deaths.
In that sense, I'll like to think of unoxegenated LCL (core material) as more akin to my previous carbon monoxide reference. Also in the same sense, it would be easy to think of the inert core material/LCL as simply covering the earth, not that the surface has actually become the material itself.

Sealing pillars, like the one seen to be activated in Paris, are present in other locations and were seen in 3.33 and (correct me if I'm wrong) 2.22. I know we see one active at least once, in which case it is likely preventing the toxic effects of the nearby LCL from spreading, akin to the presence of graphite in a nuclear reactor to absorb radiation.

We know that active cores can and do contaminate living material they come into contact with as this is seen twice (technically three times if you include Bardiel's commandeering of Unit 03 and contamination of Unit 01), first in 2.22 when Unit 00 grabs Sahaquiel's core to allow Unit 02 to destroy it, and again when Unit 08 comes into contact with the awakened Unit 13 to forcibly eject Shinji's entry plug.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I just wanted to get my thoughts on the matter down on "paper". ^_^
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Re: L-Barrier & Coreification

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:08 pm

ArvisTaljik: To address some specific points...

  • Third Impact seems like the most likely culprit for at least the initial spread of the core-effect coreification, though as you noted the Spears keeping Lilith et al. in stasis means there must be some alternative cause. There are other unresolved potential sources, such as Eva-04's pseudo-Impact and whatever the heck is/was going on in Antarctica. Also possible is that the Mark.04s have something to do with keeping the effect alive and well (see Nausicaa comparisons here).
  • While I'm pretty sure that core and LCL are fundamentally interconnected, I don't think they are interchangeable. (Sometimes in your post you make distinctions, but I found them to be somewhat confusing and poorly defined... But even if all of the following is stuff you already know, it might be helpful to others reading, so I might as well.) The Earth has been contaminated with LCL for a while, and while it makes the ocean water unsuitable for life, there is no indication (that I'm aware of) that it creates an effect similar to a core-converted surface. Life is able to exist in proximity to the ocean (travel by ship is possible; there are no adverse effects from hanging out at the water's edge); it simply can't exist INSIDE it.

    I wrote in the other thread:

    View Original PostReichu wrote:Looking back on the first two movies, I feel even more convinced now that the red liquid is indeed LCL, and "core" is just a possible form it can take. In the instances where the Angel's core doesn't pop instantaneously, it first loses the glowy particle effect and becomes just red; and the core is where the "bubbling & bursting" full-body dissolve originates. When core-stuff still has the particle effect inside it -- that means that it still contains "life" in some way. Implying perhaps that all life has been absorbed into the landscape, maybe with the eventual goal of 'consolidating' it.

    In other words, LCL is "dead"; there's nothing inside it to generate any kind of field. Not so with core, which is "alive". (As an addendum to this, Eva-01's core does not have the particle effect when we see it during Yui's experiment -- but when we see it in 2.0, it does -- suggesting it is possible to generate core-material artificially but it needs to be "given life" before it has the proper core appearance.) Another difference is that LCL is a liquid, while core has properties of both a solid and liquid.
  • I'm not sure that the Eva "coolant" is ever explicitly identified with LCL. The red color suggests that, of course, but Bakelite is also red and that's (as far as we know) just a type of plastic. I looked in the script for 1.11 and it's not very helpful here, though it identifies the "coolant" and the stuff that fills Shinji's plug using different terms. The former is mizu (which usually means "water" but can also mean "fluid/liquid"), while the latter is ekitai, explicitly the more generic "liquid/fluid". Beats me, man.
  • Sealing pillars are seen throughout 2.22, yeah. This page collects some of the sightings but it obviously needs to be updated, and sealing pillars given their own page now that they've been elevated to star status.
  • The effect that the 8th Angel has on Eva-00's arms does not seem to be core-related, though I can see why one would get that impression. I've looked at the shots many time straight on Blu-Ray and there's no sign of the tell-tale core particle effect. (The visual similarities between this incident and what later happens to Eva-08 are likely intentional, but for a different reason -- go down to the "Destiny" subheading.)
  • The contamination effect created by Eva-13 is probably best compared to what Eva-01 now does, since they're both awakened Evas. Eva-01's orbital prison is completely filled with core, and during the activation of the Wunder we see why. After Eva-02 inserts the igniter into the "womb" where Eva-01 is being held, Asuka has to immediately jettison the arm because it's been contaminated. The lighting makes it difficult to see, but there is at least one frame where the core particle effect is clearly visible.

And there's nothing wrong with a well-organized wall of text! :emogendo:

Arcadia's legacy
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Re: L-Barrier & Coreification

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:27 pm

This is probably me thinking too hard, but shouldn't the air around the awakened Eva 13 have been turning to core if contact is enough for it to spread?
Never let the flame that is hope burn out, for despite the length of the night, the sunrise will always come


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