EoE Final scene explained and connected to EoTV G.W.F Hegel.

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Re: EoE Final scene explained and connected to EoTV G.W.F Hegel.

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:34 pm

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:any sort of attempt to link EoE and EoTV is on dodgy ground, and it's on practically-collapsing ground if the attempt is to link the themes, considering EoE is partially a repudiation of the message and themes of EoTV.

Many people do not agree with that assessment.
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"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
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Re: EoE Final scene explained and connected to EoTV G.W.F Hegel.

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Postby eldomtom2 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:56 am

To do so is to deliberately reject Anno's intent, which is perhaps not invalid, but it's something that should be remembered when making statements about how the endings "fit together".

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Re: EoE Final scene explained and connected to EoTV G.W.F Hegel.

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:22 am

So you're saying that Anno has told us (unless you just "know") that EoE is "a repudiation of the message and themes of EoTV"? I don't recall his saying anything as clear-cut as that.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
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Re: EoE Final scene explained and connected to EoTV G.W.F Hegel.

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Postby eldomtom2 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:25 pm

Anno has never directly said it, but he did make statements around the time of EoE's production that he was unsatisfied with the message and themes of EoTV. To draw a line between that dissatisfication and the message and themes of EoE is not exactly hard.

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Re: EoE Final scene explained and connected to EoTV G.W.F Hegel.

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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:03 am

It's usually a good idea to provide a source when doing the whole "Anno says..." thing. The one making the claim has the responsibility to back it up, and with gwern's thorough compilation of sources out there there's no excuse not to do it most of the time.

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Re: EoE Final scene explained and connected to EoTV G.W.F Hegel.

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Postby eldomtom2 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:41 am

This thread contains most of what I'm talking about, with particular emphasis on this:
Anno: But I was speaking to myself. There was a regression back into the self. Thinking back over it, I feel like it was an ending where I intended to push forward but ended up being drawn into this feeling of blockage.

For me, personally, [the ending] wasn't very happy. In hindsight.

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Re: EoE Final scene explained and connected to EoTV G.W.F Hegel.

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Postby zlink64 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:16 am

View Original Posteldomtom2 wrote:The Hegelian stuff may be, but any sort of attempt to link EoE and EoTV is on dodgy ground, and it's on practically-collapsing ground if the attempt is to link the themes, considering EoE is partially a repudiation of the message and themes of EoTV.


I'm tired so sorry if not clear:

You are being way to black and white over an interview where Anno is talking about himself in retrospective and where all his responses are vague and about how he relates with the show after the fact. By vague I mean he doesn't go into specifics. Personally, I would recommend to people to appreciate these details when reading that interview.

The reason this matter is that we don't know how much of it(the structure of his thesis I.E themes) he dislikes so it could all be the same up until the latter parts of the ending and by latter I mean like potentially as far off as last 60 seconds(spitting out random but totally possible number) so treating the interview the way Eldomtom is treating it is very likely not best IMO. I suggest if someone feels strongly convinced by that interview and cares enough to find out what's different to go over all the dialogue/images/cuts/shots and explain clearly why and where EoE departs from Eotv. The logic/departure will be in there somewhere, Anno is a very deliberate director imo.

At anyrate, I'm like satisfied enough in general and I kinda already had the opinion that one of the problems with Eotv is that it too soft/it just words/ it's fastasy like/it's easy. Given how vague he is in the interview I'm personally gonna just go with him be overall dissatisfied with the final aesthetic that Eotv had since it comes off too "and they lived happily ever after". But like I said I'm satisfied so random common sense guessing isn't really bothering me. But, If you think it's like a lot more than that to the point it's worth sharing then like do so.


Note: I'm quoting myself/post: "Important: This is the point where you can make your own opinion on the meaning of this/ My opinion/Analysis"
The specific reason I choose that point as the branching off part was that there is no direct analog to the choking scene in Eotv as far as it's meaning goes. Imo the choking scene is the addition added that wasn't present in Eotv. I didn't make that explicit because it wasn't really the point of the post and I didn't think it really mattered much at the time but I guess it did given the interview. Not that I'm like directly arguing with you, I'm only saying that's how I would've responded to it/acknowledge it had I had it in mind when I wrote the post.

lol, In short "collapsing ground" is probably an exaggeration. Anyways it's all just my 2 cents.


Ps: If there's any more interview proof /counter argument please share. Also, I noticed the pics don't work on the old post, I'll fix it later.

Full Interview from Gwern: (This is full snippet on site anyways)
…Anno: That’s the same thing as I [myself] becoming an adult. I’m often asked if Shinji-kun [represents] an old version of myself, but that’s not the case. Shinji-kun is my current self (laughing). I act like a fourteen-year-old boy; I’m still childish. No matter how you look at it, in psychological terms, I’m [still] in the Oral Stage. A melancholic oral-dependent type. Well, this is a truth I can’t deny; I can’t do anything about it. I wanted to move forward from there, but the result was that I ended up regressing back to myself. A dead end.

Takekuma: Then in a certain sense the final episode of Eva is an unhappy ending.

Anno: Right, in a certain sense. If you take moving beyond that as being happy, then it’s an unhappy ending. If you think it’s fine, then it’s a happy ending.

Takekuma: At first glance, it takes the form of a happy ending.

Anno: I made [the idea?] the title of the last song on the soundtrack CD. “Good, or Don’t Be.” OK, or don’t live. Good or bad. [Or] is it both? I revealed a little bit of my feelings there. However, I believe that we have stopped growing where we are and are going around in circles under a [kind of] moratorium, but one [reason] is that we have lost our [capacity for] modeling. There is nothing original in human beings. If I don’t know Japanese at least, I can’t communicate. Since my parents spoke this way, that’s how I speak. If my parents spoke English I would speak English, even if I was in Japan. If my friends spoke Japanese, and I didn’t know what [they were saying], then I would go over to speaking in Japanese. I can’t invent the Japanese language myself. I’m only capable of doing things through imitation. At that time I begin to imitate my parents and siblings, those closest to me. I can either honor my parents and succeed them, or rebel and follow a different path from my parents. Either way, if I don’t have a model, then I can do neither one. No matter how much of a genius one is, there is something that awakes inspiration. If, like me, you look at nothing but manga and anime, when you have thought up something and created it, what you have thought up will only be something that you have forgotten; without question there will be some previous source for it. Then you will realize it, and recognize what it was, and feel a little bad. Since that was all you looked at, well, it was inevitable, because you are just unconsciously drawing out those things that have sedimented inside of you. No matter how much of a genius you are, if you are translating the emotions of seeing a [certain] flower into a song or a novel, if you were not really cognizant of that flower, you will not get the novel or the song. Human beings cannot create something out of nothing. With so much information flooding [us], we don’t know what we should be modeling. Even if I don’t know my classmate’s birth date, I’ll know on what day Momoe Yamaguchi was born (laughing). I’ll know the minute [details of] an idol’s profile, like her bust, waist, and hip measurements. It’s a world, I think, where you feel closer to Momoe Yamaguchi than to your classmate. Characters on television have a stronger feeling of reality than your classmates who really exist. It’s incredible, the awareness that the virtual is higher than the real. Growing up in such an environment, we aren’t sure if things that are well done have been created or not. [?] When we get older, even if we recognize that those things are false, we take what the announcer on NHK news says to be true. The Japanese have a strong tendency in this direction.
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Re: EoE Final scene explained and connected to EoTV G.W.F Hegel.

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Postby eldomtom2 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:20 pm

Anno specifically mentions the applause as "a bit weak", and in response to "So we can't think of [the ending] as [Shinji] being saved, or as it being happy." he says "Um, well, there are probably people who see it as a happy ending. For me, personally, it wasn't very happy. In hindsight.", which in my view strongly suggests that he is referring to the plot as well as the execution. Also remember he made these comment in late April/early May of 1996, so this was during the production of EoE. He strongly emphasized in an earlier interview that the person he was at the point of the interview is a different person than the person he was when he made EoTV.

explain clearly why and where EoE departs from Eotv


That it departs is easy enough - just look at Misato's and Ritsuko's deaths in EoTV or compare the Misato/Kaji sex scene in both!

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Re: EoE Final scene explained and connected to EoTV G.W.F Hegel.

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Postby zlink64 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:54 pm

I meant thematically since it’s what we/you were talking about. Also FYI by clear I meant like actually explains not just mentioning.
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Re: EoE Final scene explained and connected to EoTV G.W.F Hegel.

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Postby eldomtom2 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:01 am

EoTV's ending is as triumphant as it gets. EoE's ending is miserable and depressing. Even if you take a positive message away from the ending of EoE, it's hard to argue that it isn't far more downbeat than EoTV's.

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Re: EoE Final scene explained and connected to EoTV G.W.F Hegel.

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Postby LPeyrani » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:57 am

View Original Postviperzero wrote:Someone wrote something how Eva has heavy Lacan influence. Lacan was tremendously influenced by Hegal. I that that's one of the least explored areas of Eva.


Yess! Lacan incorporated Husserl via Sartre and Hegel via Kojeve; moreover, he infused all this into Freudism via DeSaussure and Heidegger. If we are looking for the simplest hypothesis about what the influences Anno used in imagining the fictional science of Metaphysical Biology Fuyutsuki and Yui are experts of were, we just need Lacan. If Anno studied Freud via Lacan (it's not unusual, and it was even less so in the late eighties and early nineties), we would have all the elementary concepts behind Metaphysical Biology without need of presuming Anno studying directly every original thinker involved in the long story of creating them.

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Re: EoE Final scene explained and connected to EoTV G.W.F Hegel.

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Postby zlink64 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:33 am

Um just to make it clear I'm not really committed to the idea he studied Hegel anymore, maybe he did maybe he didn't. I don't really think it matters and that's been my attitude for a few years now. I don't change the og post to reflect that because it wouldn't really change anything I said and for the sake of record-keeping( I like it to be accurate to what I was thinking at the time). I'm not the type to change old post.

It's on my to-do list to rewrite this two times, one with mentioning Hegel and once without. Two reasons for this. First, overall nothing I would say would really change, like literally, all my major points would stay the same but I plan to write a version without mentioning any famous intellectual type because that turns people off and they won't read it. And then I plan to rewrite it again but with Hegel only and SPECIFICALLY ONLY because out of all those famous people he's imo the best for explaining the concept of "the other" to people who have never heard of it. The reason I think this is because Hegel is very vague and there isn't any extra baggage on it. For example, if I used people like Lacan or Satre to explain(common popular choices when it comes to this topic) "the other" I 'd have to explain a bunch of non-important context to the reader who will probably already have a hard enough time understanding and RELATING to the idea of "the other". *the stuff in caps is what I care about.

My point is I guess that it really doesn't matter who he read and if that is what people think the focus of my post was then I failed. Well, I definitely failed lol that's why I've been meaning to rewrite but too lazy and figure most people who care enough to bother to look up this kind of stuff get the gist of the endings anyways or get enough of it that my post still has some value even if they vehemently disagree with the Hegel stuff; just explaining myself.

The focus of my post was in short 1) " the trading card say Shinji chokes because of "idea of the other" ...2) Hegel explains this idea as etc so,....3)once we understand this idea we can use the cinematography/dialogue/etc to see the similarity in Both endings....4)Conclusion both endings are talking about the same ideas and themes and are therefore symbolically the same or at least very similar kind of ending. That's it.

The point of my post is not "Hegel is the answer" I cringe when I read comments like that cause it's likely my fault they think that way. SO yeah Lacan could be better and but please don't diminish my post to just being "Hegel", it has become a critique that annoys me since the post was primarily about explaining the question "Of why did Shinji choked Asuka how that connects/relates to Eotv" and not "who did Anno read"(this was secondary at the time and presently I don't even think it really matters).
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Re: EoE Final scene explained and connected to EoTV G.W.F Hegel.

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Postby LPeyrani » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:33 am

I perfectly understand your points (I think) and agree with you. Explaining something without referencing the autority of famous thinkers is usually the mark of higher didactic enterprises. BUT, do you think you could explain Evangelion without referencing at least... Freud? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm really interested in explaining Metaphysical Biology in the easiest way.

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Re: EoE Final scene explained and connected to EoTV G.W.F Hegel.

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Postby Xistence » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:33 pm

My friend made a very hegel centric analysis of evangelion. I have barely started my philosophy journey so maybe you could get some more out of it than me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvk5BnMdXcc


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