Post-3I Yui: Monument or Mother? Mk. II [Split]

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Post-3I Yui: Monument or Mother? Mk. II [Split]

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:12 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The crosses don't represent souls. The little red dots do, and those expressly fell back to Earth.

What the crosses represent is the Way to God, the desire for human transcendence, as voiced by Gendo in episode 21 while a shadow cross appeared ominously behind him. In EoE, the formation of these crosses from Lilith's AATF launches humanity's souls skyward, into the flow that carries them to Lilith and, accordingly, to reunion with God. Shinji denied Instrumentality to humanity's souls, and the souls flocked back down to earth accordingly.

But who is heading for the heavens as the crosses ascend? Eva-01. While Lilith died in the aftermath of HIP, Eva-01 only became more powerful. She is the only human of Earth who achieved a permanent state of transcendence.

I never really thought about it before, but that climactic image of Eva-01 floating amidst a sea of rising crosses to a triumphant score is really kinda perfect.


I love how well that plays with the interpretation of Yui becoming a new Seed of Life in total contrast to basically everything else about that scene. Unless we've been understanding her "proof of humanity's existence" speech wrong the whole time.

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Re: Favorite crazy Evangelion theories

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:47 pm

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:I love how well that plays with the interpretation of Yui becoming a new Seed of Life in total contrast to basically everything else about that scene. Unless we've been understanding her "proof of humanity's existence" speech wrong the whole time.

A surface level reading lends itself well to the "mere monument" approach. But I feel like it doesn't hold up as well against the big picture. The Eva2 info especially makes the idea that Yui isn't a second-generation Seed almost untenable. There are just too many parallels. And the very name "First Ancestral Race" anticipates that there will be more -- i.e., that there will be a cycle of creation.

Here, "humanity" refers JUST to Homo sapiens, given Fuyutsuki's earlier "humanity created Eva in the image of God". So Eva-01 only needs to provide proof of OUR existence, and she does that by being an ageless, near-indestructible being created by humans with a human's soul inside. What about the rest?

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Humans can only live on this planet, but Evangelion can live forever...
together with the human soul that dwells within it.
Even after 5 billion years, when the Earth, the Moon, and even the Sun have
disappeared, it will still exist as long as even one person still lives.
It will be very lonely, but as long as that one person still lives...

I can of course see why this might be interpreted as "float out there forever and do nothing and hope you maybe get noticed", but let's make a few substitutions...

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[The FAR] can only live on this planet, but a Seed of Life can live forever...
 along with the [FAR] soul that dwells within.
Even five billion years after our planet, its moon(s), and our star have disappeared,
that Seed will still exist as long as the soul inside her does.
It will be very lonely, but as long as that one person still lives...
She will be eternal proof that [the FAR] existed.


There is, like, no aspect of this that doesn't work.

  • The FAR created the Seeds specifically so their legacy could outlive their doomed star system.
  • Adam and Lilith were on Earth for 4+ billion years before "retiring". Who knows how long they were in space beforehand?
  • The existence of the god is indeed contingent on the will of the soul inside to live, demonstrated by the way Lilith dies -- falling apart in a way identical to her clones when their destrudos were allowed to manifest (implying that Lilith self-destructed).
  • The word Yui uses to describe the soul's relationship to the Eva (yadoru) refers only to that between vessel and soul. It does not preclude the existence of other souls.
  • The Seeds of Life would be carrying millions to billions of souls with them, but thinking this would keep someone from being lonely is rather naive. The souls are most likely in a state of dormancy, and given the significance of Eva's "return to the womb" imagery they may also exist in a state where their individuality cannot survive. Whatever the case, being a Seed may be somewhat analogous to being the lone minder of a colony ship filled with people in cryostasis -- someone specially engineered to be immortal, but still possessing the capacity for loneliness, given the countless lives depending on them. (Loneliness is inherently a desire for the existence of others with which to connect, so it would be a desired trait in beings who exist for the purpose of creating life.)
And so on.

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Re: Favorite crazy Evangelion theories

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:00 pm

See I've always preferred the reading of the scenes het becoming a new Seed, and yet I see people decrying that interpretation as being fundamentally wrong, in so small part because that would mean she kept some of the souls instead of letting them return, which feels... kind of wrong.

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Re: Favorite crazy Evangelion theories

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:20 am

Other people's objections feel wrong, or you agree with them about the souls thing?

If one wants to avoid the idea that Lilin souls were "sorted" in any way (with those who desired evolution, like Gendo and Fuyutsuki, going with Yui), Adam solves the issue rather neatly. The Angels would have to give up their identities to have any place on Earth, so their souls are perfect Guf fodder. More speculatively, Adam may have also had additional, unused souls inside her Chamber. I view the scene in EoE with the giant Kaworu as (among other things) a covert soul transfer; the darkness that forms inside Eva-01's core is just too suspicious for me to ignore.

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Re: Favorite crazy Evangelion theories

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:22 pm

The soul thing, if you take the interpretation of Yui choosing which souls she took.

I suppose choosing the progeny of Adam makes sense, it's super unlikely a Seed was only equipped with 14 souls after all.

But I feel like this is growing into its own thing and should be splintered into another thread.

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Re: Post-3I Yui: Monument or Mother? Mk. II [Split]

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:38 pm

Alright, done. Have at it!

Here's a previous iteration of the topic (also a split, funny enough) that's worth skimming through, at least at the beginning. Like many threads, it veers into something totally different as it goes on.

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Re: Post-3I Yui: Monument or Mother? Mk. II [Split]

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:57 pm

You know, now that I think about it, this does make an increasingly amount of sense in the context of Yui's worldview. She's incredibly forward facing, with most of her dialogue relating to the future or the cosmic long term. Given how much she seems to believe in humanity as a whole, wanting to ensure its longevity seems reasonable. She went to frankly absurd lengths to achieve that goal, but desperate times and all that.

Though that does raise the disturbing possibility that a future iteration of humanity will exploit Yui in the same way Homo sapiens did Lilith. Unless she decided not to go idle and be an active Guiding Hand or something.

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Re: Post-3I Yui: Monument or Mother? Mk. II [Split]

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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:53 pm

Why not a hybrid?

This is something I've been mentally rolling around in my head for a while...That Yui takes on multiple iterations...Not just as Yui and Eva Unit 01...But being reborn again through the union of Adam/Lilith as new kind of Seed that bears both their powers...This would make "Super Eva Unit 01" a new kind of creature we haven't seen yet..

Even more so, the way she breaks out of the GNR/K Gestalt with the wings and everything (upon stewing in liquid -LCL) is rather like a butterfly breaking out if a chrysalis...Plus there's the fact that she went from the obvious beast/monster form we see throughout the show when the armor comes off to an implied beautiful form (as indicated by the flowing blue hair - a miniature GNR like the one briefly seen when Unit 00 self destructs in the DC of ep. 23?)...

I'm running on like 4 hours of sleep right now and this idea has always just sorta been half baked in my head anyway, so I might not be making the best sense at the moment. But I did just want to get it out there before I lay down and forget...
FROM EVANGELION:
"Acts of Man are greater than acts of God!"

"I'm saying that I love you."

NOT FROM EVANGELION:
"You are excrement. You can change yourself into gold."

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Re: Post-3I Yui: Monument or Mother? Mk. II [Split]

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:12 am

She could be both really. The ending of EoE doesn't do much to suggest she's going to take on the role of a SoL, but considering she became the Tree of Life for a time and is capable of utilizing the Lance/Spear of Longinus to restore humanity, I don't see why she couldn't act as a SoL if she so desired.

Really, after the fusion of Adam and Lilith and GNR's acceptance of Shinji's wish and subsequent death, Unit-01 being a clone of Lilith effectively has her swapping roles with/filling in the Lilith's old role as Humanity's SoL. As the ToL she only collected Lilin souls and as far as we know isn't capable of collecting the souls belong to another SoL who belong to their own distinct Chamber of Guf. She's not just adopted Lilith's role in a sense, but adopted Adam's Spear as well. Nothing is "her's", but who it originally belonged to really doesn't matter. She's got a Chamber of Guf, a Lance/Spear of Longinus, an S2 engine/FoL, and the FoK. You'd think she is more than capable of acting as a SoL with the Fruit combo she possesses.

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Re: Post-3I Yui: Monument or Mother? Mk. II [Split]

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:24 pm

A Seed of Life is going to be proof of her creators' existence, so the thread title has "Merely a monument" implied. The traditional argument is that Yui is just going to float in space forever and not do anything with her inherited powers. The previous iteration of the thread, which I linked to earlier, provides more context.

View Original PostStrokeMeGoat wrote:as far as we know isn't capable of collecting the souls belong to another SoL who belong to their own distinct Chamber of Guf

Souls can move in and out of Chambers of Guf -- the Chamber has doors for a reason. Further, the only way that the souls of Adam's Children are different from those of Lilith's are in which fruit they possess. Eva-01 has both, so there's no "compatibility" issue.

If you accept Eva2 as a source, it outright says that the Angels' souls are present for Instrumentality, meaning they have been collected into the same Chamber of Guf as all the rest.

There's also a mysterious moment in EoE when Eva-01's core develops a strange dark sphere inside it, sort of like what's seen on Adam at 2I (just less prominent because she's not glowing). In the same sequence, Kaworu extends his hands toward Eva-01 and the Tree of Life forms. If you're trying to determine a reason for why Eva-01's core changes here that's consistent with Eva's iconography, I think "she's manifesting the Chamber of Guf in anticipation of receiving souls from Adam" is a good guess.

SawItAtAge10 wrote:"Super Eva Unit 01" a new kind of creature we haven't seen yet..

Something by that name exists in Anima, but I dunno if that counts for anything...

when the armor comes off to an implied beautiful form (as indicated by the flowing blue hair - a miniature GNR?)...

The body proportions (arms and shoulders are clearly visible, and the lower body can be seen in silhouette) indicate that she's still an Eva. Just... an Eva with hair. Or maybe it's just the "head blazing in a hair-like manner" trope. Gods, I hope so.


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