Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:40 pm

View Original PostSEELE-01 wrote:Even though in the end Asuka was nowhere near as important for the overall plot as Rei was?

I don’t disagree with that fact, but since when was plot relevance a factor in determining Best Girls or Waifus? I think audience reaction might be the deciding factor on this.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby robersora » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:44 am

The problem that NTE kind of faces is that with every movie they decided on a wildly different idea on what rebuild should be.
That coupled with the wish of "tearing-apart" the near clockwork structure of the original while STILL trying to adhere to
(fixed plot-beats in 1.0) (iconic imagery in 2.0)
is a tremendous challenge. So when 3.0 came around they had so many dangling threads, while also introducing so many new ones in an effort to open a new narrative, while ALSO almost exclusively being concerned with action sequences.
That's why, NTE especially compared to the tight structure of Eva it overall feels scatterbrained.

I personally never cared that much about plot details, tbh... One of the reasons I love Eva so much is, that it is something we rarely get in media.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby ShonHam » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:38 am

I don't think it's so much to do with quality, as opposed to people's personal preference and feelings towards ambiguous storytelling. It is really just a massive art piece given movement, at least from my perspective. Some people may like it, and others might despise it - that's just the way it is.

It's quality in all aspects for the most part is undeniable (from an artistic perspective that is), although the altered characters and the direction of the story is questionable throughout. I've enjoyed it thoroughly for the most part though in spite of this, hell, I even enjoy the new take on the characters in some instances. It makes it distinct and fresh, if you understand my meaning.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby PenPen4life » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:09 am

"Ambiguous storytelling" is code for "payoffs without set up". Failing to set up future payoffs is simply bad writing. End of.

It's possible that all of this is gonna culminate in a stunning meta film that established the prioe films's flaws as a meaningful build up, but I'd guess what really happened is whatusually happens when multiple creative visions are forced together: they couldn't decide what to make the story is about, so they ended up tryin got do everything and the story was consequently unfocused.

Mari was literally a result of trying to force a "fooleycooley" kind of character in what anno didn't feel was "fooleycooley" kind of movie series.

It's quality in all aspects for the most part is undeniable (from an artistic perspective that is,


Yeah, literally nothing is unquestionable in all aspects lol.

No, like really:
https://youtu.be/4qK87ftbU5A?t=20
Unquestionable artistic quality

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby kuribo-04 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:59 am

Mari was literally a result of trying to force a "fooleycooley" kind of character in what anno didn't feel was "fooleycooley" kind of movie series
.
I think by 3.0 she doesn't feel out of place.
Her existence is also to be a non-Eva character. No one else could say the things she does.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby PenPen4life » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:03 am

I think by 3.0 she doesn't feel out of place.

Nah. Her conflict, being a junkie, doesn't tie into anyone else's arcs or the overarching narrative, and she doesn't get any sort of focus to justify eating into anyone's screen time. She still seems completely pointless to me.
View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:.

Her existence is also to be a non-Eva character. No one else could say the things she does.

Which is the kinda thing you would expect when you have multiple creative visions clashing with each other.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby kuribo-04 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:05 pm

I don't think a character very different to the other characters is a clash when she has her role.
Nobody else in the cast would have had those words for Shinji before ejecting him in 3.0.

I also think she shows how the things in Evangelion aren't inherently bad, it's about how you perceive them. She hasn't been brought down yet. I like her as contrast to the mentally troubled rest of the cast.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:32 pm

View Original PostPenPen4life wrote:"Ambiguous storytelling" is code for "payoffs without set up". Failing to set up future payoffs is simply bad writing. End of.

Let me ask you a question. Which is the better film, the first Matrix movie, or either of the Matrix sequels? (Also, I think you might mean "set-up without payoffs," right?)

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby PenPen4life » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:49 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Let me ask you a question. Which is the better film, the first Matrix movie, or either of the Matrix sequels? (Also, I think you might mean "set-up without payoffs," right?)

Let me ask you a better question. This is relevant, how?

We're discussing rebuild not the matrix. If you want to use the matrix as an example then you're gonna need to get specific on what they're an example of and simultaneously get specific parts of the stories you're using to make a point about the rebuilds.
View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:I don't think a character very different to the other characters is a clash when she has her role.

What is her role?

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:55 pm

View Original PostPenPen4life wrote:Let me ask you a better question. This is relevant, how?

We're discussing rebuild not the matrix. If you want to use the matrix as an example then you're gonna need to get specific on what they're an example of and simultaneously get specific parts of the stories you're using to make a point about the rebuilds.

To be more specific, it's about how the first Matrix movie sets up threads and themes that it doesn't pay off within that first film. (Kinda like how "Rebuild" does.) Do you think it's a good movie?

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby PenPen4life » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:00 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:To be more specific, it's about how the first Matrix movie sets up threads and themes that it doesn't pay off within that first film.

Ahhhh. So you're arguing we should factor in stories that haven't been told yet into our opinions of a published story?

Yeah, that makes zero sense. If the next film changes everything, we can reevaluate. Untill then, lets base our opinions on what we have and not what we hope for.

To answer your question, I don't remember the matrix films.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:39 pm

No, I'm not. I'm just asking a question. I haven't argued anything yet. But to be clear, no, we should NOT factor in untold factors into anything that isn't told to us yet within the narrative itself.

Lemme just get to the point here. I think what you're attempting to argue for here is that a story be at least complete before it can be considered good. Am I right? Because the Matrix provides a microcosm of reasons why that way of thinking isn't always correct.

See, most people (myself included) like the first Matrix movie. (In fact, I really, really, really like it. I may even love it.) The sequels, on the other hand, are kinda clumsily put together and really a drag to sit though. Very few people enjoy them, and most audiences would say that they're a waste of your time. Even asking about these movies will be met with a course of voices saying "Just watch the first one," or "The sequels are terrible. Don't watch them."

The problem with this is that the first Matrix film is, by itself, incomplete, not because it's the first of a trilogy of films (that's a dumb argument anyway), but actually because it actively sets up themes and ideas that wouldn't be paid off in that film. Case in point, when Neo goes to meet the Oracle for the first time. She tells him "Don't mind the vase." Neo responds "What vase?" Neo turns around to see what she's talking about, and immediately knocks over a vase standing on a table right beside him.

"That vase..." the Oracle says, turning from the oven she's been monitoring.

Neo tries to apologize, but the Oracle simply reminds him "I said don't worry about it."

"How did you know?" asks Neo.

"Ooooh..." the Oracle muses, striking a match and lighting her cigarette. "What's really gonna bake your noodle later on is, would you have done it if I hadn't said anything?"

And throughout the entire film, Neo's noodle is never baked upon this inquiry. In fact, this thematic element is just left dangling throughout the entire film until Neo meets the Oracle again in the sequel, and the two go on about choices that we make and understanding choices before we make them and predetermination vs free will and well... basically everything.

So, if the first Matrix movie has a set up of an idea (that being the idea of choices), but no pay off until its sequel, then the first Matrix basically isn't a complete movie. It cannot be a complete movie by itself. It intrinsically needs the sequel in order for everything presented within that film to reach any sort of conclusion.

But is the first Matrix movie a good movie? Was it satisfying to watch?

Many people would argue that, yes, it is a good movie, and that it was totally satisfying to watch. Most audiences don't mind that unresolved, incomplete thematic element dangling throughout the movie because the rest of the film was really satisfying to watch. Heck, Neo doesn't even need to take down "the machines" as he was prophesied to do in the film in order for it to be satisfying. He just needed to save Morpheus and overcome one agent, and everyone in the audience felt good about it.

So, in conclusion, most movies can be considered good just so long as they were satisfying to watch, regardless of whether or not they were ever "complete."

Now, how does this apply to the new Evangelion movies? Well, the same principles are still in place, actually. These Evangelion movies can be considered good just so long as they were satisfying to watch, regardless of their presupposed "completion." And, despite the teases within Eva Jo, I found it to be a satisfying film to watch on its own. (It had to be a satisfying film to watch on its own. It's sequel wouldn't come out for another two years!) Heck, I even find the ending of Eva Q to be satisfying to watch. In fact, the only Evangelion movie I feel wasn't all that satisfying to watch was the middle one, Eva Ha. (That was some dope cliffhanger, though.)

So, yeah, these movies aren't complete, but so what? Just so long as they were satisfying to watch, people will talk about how good they are.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:24 pm

Never understood the feeling or logic behind creating an account on a forum just to try & pick fights by arguing something sucks and has zero merits.
If you don't like something it's perfectly fine not to engage with it. I for one find the Marvel Cinematic Universe to be pretty awful. I will debate if the topic requires the pros & cons of the MCU's existence but what I certainly don't do is find a Marvel Forum, create an account and then just jump into threads going "Nah bro, your statement regarding the merits of this are actually bullshit because ACTUALLY..."

It seems like a waste of time and is an act mostly done to start fights for the hell of it.

But, you do you.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby PenPen4life » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:28 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:
Lemme just get to the point here. I think what you're attempting to argue for here is that a story be at least complete before it can be considered good. Am I right? Because the Matrix provides a microcosm of reasons why that way of thinking isn't always correct.

Yeah this whole "matrix wasn't complete" is wholly arbitrary. Any story can be broken down into as many parts as you wish and any trilogy can be seen as a "part" of a larger story. It's wholly arbitrary and really just a double standard to defend certain stories as "not being complete yet".


And no,I'm arguing, a story doesn't need to be complete for you to judge what has already been written. Credit should be given when it's earned, not before hand.

I have no idea why you're saying i'm arguing for everyone to "wait" for the next installment.
View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:Never understood the feeling or logic behind creating an account on a forum just to try & pick fights by arguing something sucks and has zero merits.

Never understood creating an account to try and pick fights by arguing a post sucks and has zero merits.

Drop the ad-hominem. It is just as valid to criticize as it is to praise. Passive aggressively ranting that someone dared to question something you like is a terrible way to start a discussion and a fantastic way to start fights.

Also, stop strawmanning. Quote where it was said rebuild has no merit. There's no need for misleading hyperbole.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:39 pm

View Original PostPenPen4life wrote:Yeah this whole "matrix wasn't complete" is wholly arbitrary. Any story can be broken down into as many parts as you wish and any trilogy can be seen as a "part" of a larger story. It's wholly arbitrary and really just a double standard to defend certain stories as "not being complete yet"

How so?

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby PenPen4life » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:30 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:How so?

Simply put, every story consists of parts and if you build off the stories they themselves can become parts of another story rendering them "incomplete".

I can look at a scene from a trailer and say it's part of a story or treat it as it's own story. A story is never "complete" because it can always be added to. Hence it doesn't make sense to consider what is yet to be written for one story if you aren't going to consider what might be written for another.

My opinions will only be based on what already exists. Not what might exist later. If you feel like taking the opposite stance, then you should do so consistently and consider hypotheticals for every story ever.

Untill a payoff comes into existence, it should not be considered. How you format your release does not make a story complete or incomplete.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:21 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Let me ask you a question. Which is the better film, the first Matrix movie, or either of the Matrix sequels?
There's a category error here when discussing this in the context of the Rebuilds. Those were announced as two and two halves from the get-go (even if the halves have become full length). The original Matrix was marketed stand-alone, and only grew follow-on films later.

Perhaps you were looking for something that was more often cited in analogy.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Joseki » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:43 am

^

The Rebuild however doesn't make NGE "worse" (if you think they are bad) just by existing like the Prequel do with the original trilogy. There is no connection between NGE and Rebuild while there is a clear consequentiality between Prequels and OT.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:38 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:There's a category error here when discussing this in the context of the Rebuilds. Those were announced as two and two halves from the get-go (even if the halves have become full length). The original Matrix was marketed stand-alone, and only grew follow-on films later.

Perhaps you were looking for something that was more often cited in analogy.

Incorrect again. Actually, the Matrix was originally planned to have only one sequel and one prequel. And we can go on and on about Author's Intent all the live long day until the cows come home and we turn blue in the face. Point is, these films have set up elements that wouldn't pay off until later films. Point remains, just so long as the films are satisfying to watch on their own, it doesn't matter.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby PenPen4life » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:09 am

View Original PostJoseki wrote:^

The Rebuild however doesn't make NGE "worse" (if you think they are bad)

No idea why you're bringing the prequels into this or what point you're responding to. No one said anything about them being made worse, what I said was that as rebuild borrows many of it;s narrative elements from the original, it invites comparison.

The prequels, on the other hand, tell a new story building off the original. The execution of the prequels isn't relevant because the prequels are additive material. The rebuilds, on the other hand, are told as an original story but burrows its world, much of it's basic characterization and a lot of it's narrative legwork from NGE for the sake of convenience.

One story presents itself as an addition to the original and fits itself in what has been established regarding the original universe, the other takes what's established in the original and then does what it wants with it.

Treating the two as identical is a false equivocation.

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Incorrect again. Actually, the Matrix was originally planned to have only one sequel and one prequel. And we can go on and on about Author's Intent all the live long day until the cows come home and we turn blue in the face. Point is, these films have set up elements that wouldn't pay off until later films. Point remains, just so long as the films are satisfying to watch on their own, it doesn't matter.

Again, every story has elements that could be paid off in later installments. Untill they are actually paid off, there's no need to assume they will be. If we aren't willing to discuss what is available, then we shouldn't discuss it at all.


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