Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:52 pm

Money.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

At some point in their history, all the conservative, globe trotting juggernauts were risk-takers, and then they became mainstream and didn't fix what wasn't broken.

Even if it was cat shit, Beauty and the Beast brought in a massive ROI. So there will be more.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:49 pm

The last Marvel movie to have taken any general risks was Iron Man Three. It also is one of the few Marvel movies to have a bit of a real personality. It's of course hated by a majority of the fanbase because it doesn't pander to the fans.

Infinity War is 150 minutes of pure pandering. They took 10 different franchises, mixed them all together in the third entry of their biggest franchise, gave each character their own highlight reel and then ended the movie with a "tune in next year" ending. Then the end credits teaser basically states "if you don't see Captain Marvel you're gonna be so lost come part 2". Infinity War is a movie devoid of an ending - and a soul, the argument that Thanos is the main character is an empty defense because despite Josh Brolin doing what we can we know nothing of who he is an individual - because it doesn't have one. It's the first act of a larger story and the movie ends telling the audience you have to buy a ticket to two more movies. Not risky storytelling. But very smart commerce. Marvel has perfected the art of never ending hype and fans eat it up because it's their thing. And that's okay. But it's hypocrisy to pontificate Disney is all about money - they are - and then call what Marvel is doing "risky storytelling". It's not. It's pure commerce. And that's okay.
Now, I thought A Wrinkle in Time was garbage but I do give that movie the credit for casting an African American girl as the lead. It means little to me but means a lot to young girls who never see themselves in the lead role. Still a terrible movie. Can't dispute that.

P.S. Age of Ultron was a mess because the movie went into production with an approved ending where Tony Stark died to make up for the hubris of creating Ultron. It's a movie where Stark's arrogance that he knows best for every one leads to the creation of a world destroying AI and he makes penance by ... creating a sentient AI in Vision... but don't worry y'all cause this time it's good. Disney saw the Captain America movies were underperforming - they did fine but not $1 billion fine - so they forced drastic third act changes onto the movie so Robert Downey Jr could be used as a draw for Civil War. That's why Whedon had a major falling out with the studio. They hampered his movie late in the game so the next movie could make more money. It worked too. Fans say they hate Ultron but still turned out Civil War which did about $400 million more at the worldwide box office than Winter Solider.
Hell, some of the "deaths" that were originally set to be permanent in Infinity War have already been written out now that Disney+ is a thing. Example: Tom Hiddleston's death in IW was supposed to be official, he wanted out of Marvel since his star power has grown a great deal since 2011 and he's lost a few good gigs with top directors due to the scheduling necessities of having to be Thor's frenemy. Now he's renegotiated and has that high budget Disney+ series all about him. Only characters I see staying dead for good are Idris Elba - he took the first one strictly to work with Kenneth Branagh and haaaated being pulled back in every few years for a few months at a time to play a bit part and has wanted to be written out since - and maybe Dave Bautisita - and that's only because he's vocally been asking to be written out of Guardians 3 for the studios appeasing to the Alt-Right.

P.S.S. If anyone thinks I'm a comic book movie hater I'm not. I just like good movies and Black Panther aside I've found the recent Marvel movies, especially Infinity War, blow because in place of character & human stories they've been fully focused on bullshit McGuffins & expanding the universe solely as a neverending money generator in lieu of character story. The past few Marvel movies have been ALL PLOT. ZERO TO NO STORY. But, I did get to see a screening of Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse and while I'm not crazy with the millions of franchise possibilities it opens - Sony has surprisingly thought this through and could do very well for a long time as home to the Spider-People and this is the launch of ANOTHER Cinematic Universe - as a movie it is stellar and could likely go down on my favorite films of the year. Don't miss it. Frankly, I think the MCU movies would all be ten times better as animated movies and this one delivers as a fun time!

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:04 pm

You're looking at it from the wrong direction. There is no comparison between Iron Man 3 and Infinity War.

Iron Man 3 is a character study, it's essentially a redo of Iron Man 2 with an actual character arc.

Infinity War is mythology. It's not a story of quite moments and reflective characters. It's bombast, it's more ragnarok than Ragnarok. Moments like a dying Heimdall sending the Hulk to earth to warn of the coming of Thanos and King Thor forging a kingly weapon and the last stand of Wakanda. The two movies together will form an epic (in the classical sense of the word) story of passing the torch from hero to hero. It represents a form of filmmaking that has largely been abandoned in modern times despite the digital toy box filmmakers have available to them now. A huge spectacle for the sake of spectacle. Pure melodrama that exists for its own sake.

If you take a concept like Infinity War and try to put ~meaning~ into it you get Batman bin Suparman, Dawn of Punching.

Age of Ultron was a mess because the movie went into production with an approved ending where Tony Stark died to make up for the hubris of creating Ultron. It's a movie where Stark's arrogance that he knows best for every one leads to the creation of a world destroying AI and he makes penance by ... creating a sentient AI in Vision... but don't worry y'all cause this time it's good. Disney saw the Captain America movies were underperforming - they did fine but not $1 billion fine - so they forced drastic third act changes onto the movie so Robert Downey Jr could be used as a draw for Civil War. That's why Whedon had a major falling out with the studio.


I'm glad they changed it. Civil War was a fantastic movie and no amount of Tony Stark dying could make up for Whedon's waif fu "I'm a monster because my uterus doesn't work" horseshit and TV style directing. Joss Whendon is obsolete.
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:08 am

https://youtu.be/hA6hldpSTF8

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:53 am

^ They're releasing two movies 48 days apart? Seriously? Also, that's one hell of a trailer, and title. Though I guess given the plot, they'd need to make chess reference.

And it's ironic (to me) that ST:VOY's finale was called Endgame and involved time travel to correct the past for a better future.

El Squibbonator wrote:The sad thing is, Disney as a company was founded on risk-taking endeavors. Snow White? Pinocchio? Fantasia? Those were all risky movies by the standards of their time. Disney used to be all about taking risks and doing things no other movie studio had done before. What happened to them? How did they lose their mojo?

They remember that they released Song of the South and are afraid to make the same mistake :rolleyes:

But in all seriousness, they focus on the younger demographic where the good guys always win and complex themes are toned down for accessibility. In addition to that Disney wants to make fuckloads of money. To do that they stick with a formula that works, that makes money, a cookie cutter format as many people call it. They are fun to watch, but are all basically the same, with exceptions of course.

Chuckman wrote:I'm glad they changed it. Civil War was a fantastic movie and no amount of Tony Stark dying could make up for Whedon's waif fu "I'm a monster because my uterus doesn't work" horseshit and TV style directing. Joss Whendon is obsolete.

Yeah, that would have been really stupid if them to do... but Chuckman, what's the "waf fu" uterus thing you're talking about, I'm a bit lost :???:
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Postby El Squibbonator » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:33 am

It's a truism about female movie character-- that they can be a mother OR a competent heroine, but never both at the same time. Joss Whedon is especially guilty of this.
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Postby Chuckman » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:01 pm

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:
But in all seriousness, they focus on the younger demographic where the good guys always win and complex themes are toned down for accessibility. In addition to that Disney wants to make fuckloads of money. To do that they stick with a formula that works, that makes money, a cookie cutter format as many people call it. They are fun to watch, but are all basically the same, with exceptions of course.


Iron Man 3, Civil War, and Black Panther definitely have heavier themes and I'd argue Infinity War does, too. It simply can't be judged for its merits as a character study because it's meaningless to criticize something for not being something else.


Yeah, that would have been really stupid if them to do... but Chuckman, what's the "waf fu" uterus thing you're talking about, I'm a bit lost :???:


In AoU, part of the Hulk/Widow bonding was a touching scene where she mentions that she can't have children. Because being taken in and trained from youth to be a killer and having murders on her conscience isn't adequate, in order to be truly monstrous a woman has to be unable to bear children.

Whedon advanced feminism in media something like 20 years ago but the world has moved far past him and he hasn't evolved. His rough tough girl Buffy/River Tam feminism is outmoded.

A truly feminist Black Widow in that scene would see herself as a monster because she has done monstrous things, not because she has some defect that is intrinsically tied to her womanhood (and, additionally, that aspect of womanhood that men are most interested in dominating, controlling, and defining women by).

It's even more jarring when watching AoU beside the Captain America films where her gender is essentially incidental to the character and they don't have any scenes fetishizing her as a bondgirlesque slutmaster spy (ala Avengers) or centralizing her character around her womanhood (AoU) and she's just competent at her job and a platonic friend to the protagonist. Whedon's approach to the character is male gaze masquerading as feminism. At least the scenes in Iron Man 2 that were all about ScarJo's ass are honest about what they are.

I find it irritating that all of her other movie appearances are more rounded (or, at least, don't pretend to be rounded) and in Whedon's movies she's there to look hot, wear lingerie, display her feet, demand sympathy in accordance with his fetishes, get kidnapped by the bad guy like an 80's cartoon girl sidekick, and I guess run around shooting at aliens with a pair of freaking glocks. Whedon's movies aggressively minimize her to the point where it's astoundingly blatant that she's there to be objectified. The movies almost seem annoyed that they have to find something for her to do during the fight scenes.

Plus the whole Hulk/Natasha thing is just oozing rape fantasy vibes, especially in the first Avengers movie, even without thatgif.gif.
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Postby movieartman » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:11 pm

Not much to say about the Avengers trailer, looks great.

On Captain Marvel.
Shocked how good the mask & mohawk look in live action as I was never a fan of how it looked in the comics.
Very pleased with the display of her powers & combat style, reminded me of this Alex Ross Space Ghost cover.
SPOILER: Show
Image

Glad we are finally getting what appears to be a mostly serious toned cosmic film. (besides Infinity war)
Music is great.

View Original PostChuckman wrote:I don't care if the characters are all going to come back later, watching the movie made me emotional when I was watching it, in the moment. If it does that, it's a success. It's all fake, so all the yammering about how they'll come back is essentially complaining that it's just a story.

Seconded.

View Original PostChuckman wrote:I'm glad they changed it. Civil War was a fantastic movie and no amount of Tony Stark dying could make up for Whedon's waif fu "I'm a monster because my uterus doesn't work" horseshit and TV style directing. Joss Whendon is obsolete.

View Original PostChuckman wrote:In AoU, part of the Hulk/Widow bonding was a touching scene where she mentions that she can't have children. Because being taken in and trained from youth to be a killer and having murders on her conscience isn't adequate, in order to be truly monstrous a woman has to be unable to bear children.

A truly feminist Black Widow in that scene would see herself as a monster because she has done monstrous things, not because she has some defect that is intrinsically tied to her womanhood (and, additionally, that aspect of womanhood that men are most interested in dominating, controlling, and defining women by).

(I agree civil war was great & tony didn't need to die in aou)
Being molded into a assassin WAS the reason she was calling herself a monster. Infertility was just a shared loss her & Banner both suffered as a result of their transformations. She only mentioned it because Banner stated his inability to have kids FIRST! and the only reason she was notably emotional about it in that moment was because Wanda dredged up the memories to the forefront of her mind.

View Original PostChuckman wrote:1 - bondgirlesque slutmaster spy
2 - Whedon's approach to the character is male gaze masquerading as feminism. At least the scenes in Iron Man 2 that were all about ScarJo's ass are honest about what they are.
3 - get kidnapped by the bad guy like an 80's cartoon girl sidekick
4 - The movies almost seem annoyed that they have to find something for her to do during the fight scenes.

1 - That is what the character has always been and what most people want her to be and there is nothing wrong with that archetype.
2 - They are not mutually exclusive. A woman can be blatantly sexually attractive & competent & inspiring at the exact same time. Also Widow's fight scene was one of the absolutely greatest scenes in that entire film so don't try and sell this sexy & competence can not coexist crap.
3 - That part was a result of Scar being pregnant during filming.
4 - Bullshit, her hijacking a Chitauri ship to get to the top of Stark Tower in the 1st Avengers was freaking badass, I agree her only using Glock initially looked weak but she quickly switched to using a Chitauri rifle. Also her interrogation of Loki was universally praised.

Also the same platonic style relationship she had with Steve in Winter Solider she also had with Clint in both Avengers films.
Last edited by movieartman on Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:40 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:21 pm

Whedon will always be the King of Mediocrity. You will never find a nerd franchise more middle-of-the-road and mediocre than anything that he's had any part in. The only of his TV series that I really liked was Dollhouse, and that's probably because it was the first of his that I'd seen. The other TV series of his that I saw after that was just the same sack of tropes repeated.

Dr. Horrible was also pretty good, but my favorite Nathan Fillion role will always be in James Gunn's Slither.

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Postby Chuckman » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:50 pm

View Original Postmovieartman wrote:Being molded into a assassin WAS the reason she was calling herself a monster. Infertility was just a shared loss her & Banner both suffered as a result of their transformations. She only mentioned it because Banner stated his inability to have kids FIRST! and the only reason she was notably emotional about it in that moment was because Wanda dredged up the memories to the forefront of her mind.


She mentioned it because it was written that way. It's so jarring and out of place that it felt forced by the writer to cater to his own preferences. He started fetishizing her from the get-go. Her first appearance in the movie is in torn clothes, barefoot, and tied to a chair.

1 - That is what the character has always been and what most people want her to be and there is nothing wrong with that archetype.


Yeah, actually, there is. This is the new millennium and we can have female spy characters who are still sexy without being reduced to their tits. There are plenty of other movies like that and it's been done and done and done and done it's boring. There's more for a female character in a superhero movie to do than be written into situations that revolve around her boobs.

She doesn't have to be asexual. Wonder Woman is a movie about a female superhero in a skimpy outfit who is portrayed by a statuesque model with a romance subplot that touches heavily on the sexual awakening of a virgin that could be horribly pandering in the wrong hands, yet it succeeds in depicting the character with minimal male gaze.

Frankly, this sounds like the kind of complaints people have about Iron Man 3, that the villain is relevant to modern times isn't a horrifying racist stereotype. Catsuit McTits superspies don't belong in modern media anymore than Faux Manchu does, unless it's ironic. Whedon's Black Widow feels like she got lost on her way to the bizzaro universe Austin Powers version of Avengers.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:40 pm

As far as the Male Gaze goes, the superhero film that best handles the lady hero in mostly skimpy outfits is Hideaki Anno's Cutie Honey. (Also, no one can't convince me that Cutie Honey isn't a landmark in cinematic achievements. Because it totally is!) But yes, I 100% agree with Chuckman on this. A lot of the older tropes are so steeped in their original contexts (and at times even their toxic personalities) that to rehash them in modern contexts comes off as sexist and just plain creepy or emotionally unbalanced in the part of the writer. Just compare how Patty Jenkins handled Wonder Woman compared to Zack Whedon. Joss Snyder just seems to fumble the ball and completely lose focus of the character compared to Patty Jenkins.

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Postby movieartman » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:57 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:He started fetishizing her from the get-go. Her first appearance in the movie is in torn clothes, barefoot, and tied to a chair.

That was her start in the 1st film, her opening in Aou was kicking Hydra ass with the rest of the team.
And that 1st opening touched on both her Russian & dancing history.

This is the new millennium and we can have female spy characters who are still sexy without being reduced to their tits.

They never reduced her to her tits, MAYBE the changing in the car sequence but that was literally a matter of seconds. Your basically saying male viewers don't have a right to be pandered to for 5 seconds out of a 2 hour film?
Giving her body VERY brief moments of focus is not reducing her to just her body, it's merely displaying that single aspect of her because we don't get to see it the rest of the film. It's just the cherry on top of the character while your claiming it's replacing her entirely which is absurd.

Frankly, this sounds like the kind of complaints people have about Iron Man 3, that the villain is relevant to modern times isn't a horrifying racist stereotype.

For the record I really like Iron Man 3 & found the twist a missed opportunity but acceptable. However...

1 - There have been plenty of versions of the Mandarin that are non racist & who could have been adapted onto film, read Iron Man Haunted in particular (they successfully gave The Mandarin a "altruistic" goal akin to Thanos in Infinity War).

2 - Except for the derogatory way they are drawn & written to sound at times (and having white actors play them even into the late 60s), Fu Manchu was actually a villainous stereotype based on fearful respect. It was born of Western shock at Japan kicking utter ass in the Russo Japanese War, it was a acknowledgement that Japan was becoming a worthy global power to be feared.
And Manchu had a tragic sympathetic origin where he was a brilliant doctor whose family was killed in bombings.
A truly racist hateful stereotype would be lying and claiming Asians were sub human incompetents who have 100% unsympathetic motives, something more akin to WW2 propaganda art.

These = Bad...
SPOILER: Show
Image
Image
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These = Badass...
SPOILER: Show
Image
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No one living today is going to believe real Asians are evil sorcerers, so the negative insinuations of the stereotype have zero power today. The modern versions of the characters are nothing more conceptually offensive then a version of Doctor Doom who is Asian.

Let me ask you this, was Jet Li's evil Emperor in The Mummy 3 racist?

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Just compare how Patty Jenkins handled Wonder Woman compared to Zack Whedon. Joss Snyder just seems to fumble the ball and completely lose focus of the character compared to Patty Jenkins.

Their only notably fumble with Diana is having the Flash fall on her boobs. It worked acceptably with Banner/Widow, it did not work in Justice League, the bizarre way it was filmed full body from the side was unbearably awkward looking, like something out of SNL.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby El Squibbonator » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:15 pm

View Original Postmovieartman wrote:Let me ask you this, was Jet Li's evil Emperor in The Mummy 3 racist?


No. Because in that movie, Chinese people are present among both the heroes and the villains. Nowhere is it stated or even suggested that the villain is evil because of his ethnicity.
The Mandarin is different. Him being an evil Chinese person is the entire point of his character.
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Postby Chuckman » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:16 pm

There is pretty much no way to make the Mandarin not racist in a movie if he is brought forth from the comics as a Chinese mystic who fights Iron Man with kung fu and rings from magic dragon aliens that wear diapers. Even if you take a modern businessman approach, he's still a yellow peril villain, just update to reflect modern tensions between America and the East. If you dress him up in armor that covers his face or whatever like in that image movieartman posted, then he just becomes a generic armor dude. Why bother calling him the Mandarin then?

Taking this uninspired racist character (let's face it: the Mandarin would just be Fu Manchu if he was public domain, just like Dracula is part of the Marvel Universe, as well as a version of Conan's lost hyborian age, Kulan Gath, and Red Sonja) and turning him into a mishmash of racist stereotypes created as a boogeyman by an American business man to sell weapons and cover up industrial accidents caused by reckless medical research is a stroke of genius- and casting Ben Kingsley to play the actor who plays the Mandarin as a foppish British buffoon named Trevor is one of the most inspired things in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. "The Mandarin" illustrates what the Vulture from Homecoming could have been if they hadn't wussed out on the disaffected working man themes for fear of offending the audience.

Trevor the Mandarin captures the true trangressive spirit of Marvel Comics, where people get addicted to drugs, a hero becomes an alcoholic, and the kidnapping of the girlfriend by the archvillain actually ends in her death, better than simply translating an old and thoroughly problematic character to the screen ever could.
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