Was Yui nearly as bad as Gendo?

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Re: Was Yui nearly as bad as Gendo?

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Postby ZQFMGB » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:56 pm

Yeah, it makes more sense. Still, I find it hard to believe that Yui, generally described as a nice person and a loving mother, let HIP occur... okay, she did so that Shinji could undo it, but it's really a cold reasoning...
well, I guess being stuck in a giant cyborg's core and used as a killing machine can damage your mind to some degree. That'd also explain why she acted like some kind of carnivorous ape when in Berserk mode and why she thought leaving her shell-shocked son on a scorched planet was a good idea.
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Commander : being as unexpressive as possible and doing a perfect "Gendo pose".
Vice Commander : looking constipated.
Operations director : hurling orders which have 95% chances of failing.
Chief scientist : looking amazed and puzzled when something goes wrong with an Eva.
Bridge operator : saying what's going wrong with an Eva and which emergency procedure isn't working.
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Re: Was Yui nearly as bad as Gendo?

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:04 am

View Original PostZQFMGB wrote:Yeah, it makes more sense. Still, I find it hard to believe that Yui, generally described as a nice person and a loving mother, let HIP occur... okay, she did so that Shinji could undo it, but it's really a cold reasoning...

I honestly think that, given the situation in EOE and what all SEELE has at their disposal with the MP Evas and psuedo-spears, HIP was almost an inevitability. Hell, even Gendo was determined on causing it himself a well, even if it was through the forbidden union of Adam and Lilith as opposed to the MP Evas.

If you think through the most likely scenarios and how they'd all potentially play out if trying to avoid HIP altogether was Yui's chosen course of action to prevent the extinction of humanity (or at least human individuality... which is kind of a fundamental aspect of what it is to actually be "human"--a merged collective of all human souls would necessarily have to be considered something different than humans as we know, define, and conceptualize them), you quickly start to realize that HIP still having potential for being initiated or the otherwise extinction of humanity as a species through some other means is too great of a risk to count on being able to avoid.

I spoilered here my understanding of the events during EoE, which are pertinent to fully understanding the threats and why Yui's plan was really the safest and most effective to come up with, but the contents are long enough that it makes my post and my points so unorganized, cluttered, and potentially confusing that it needs hidden:
As I understand the events of the End of Evangelion and specifically Third Impact, along with Human Instrumentality, is that SEELE's plan at the start of ep. 25' is to simply initiate Third Impact itself because they believe HIP to be otherwise impossible for them to accomplish given the Spear of Longinus still remaining in Lunar Orbit/on the moon without the time to fund and execute a space mission to recover it given they know Gendo possesses Adam's embryo and has unrestricted to Lilith in Terminal Dogma. So, fearing Gendo's rather predictable choice of action going forward (namely, fusing himself with Adam and Lilith to become a god of unprecedented power that easily eclipses even that of the new "God" Unit-01 after it ingested and came to possess an S2 engine with a human soul in its core, giving it the power to initiate an impact all on its own with the Spear of Longinus and maybe even without it) and trying to cut him off before he gets the chance, they show they are willing to forego their originally intended plan of initiating HIP and to simply settle for the indiscriminate death of everybody.

Their dialog with Gendo is what leads me to believe this. They say that without both Lilith and the original Spear, their plans for HIP will go unrealized. Continuing on, they tell Gendo that they will wipe out original sin (or something similar to that) via the indiscriminate death of all humankind, stating that they themselves do not intend to use Unit-01 as a personal Ark to ride out the destruction of humanity after Third Impact is initiating. Gendo responds stating that death creates nothing. If they were stating then that they were still going through with HIP, then Gendos answer is rather curious considering that there's a fair bit of nuance between the total and indiscriminate death of all and the whole of humanity being merged into a single consummate being whose imperfections fill and complement one another. This isn't even mentioning the fact the humans complementing and merging together like that would mean that, even if Yui's soul were included in that, the loss of individuality would prevent by it's very nature the two of them ever reuniting like he states several times he wishes and plans to do.

That said, Gendo's plan to merge with Adam and Lilith to become a God means that either through the powers newly afforded to him he could either merge Unit-01 with himself or otherwise extract and absorb Yui's soul out of it, or if that isn't in the realm of possibility, then Yui/Unit-01+the S2 engine existing as a kind of God themselves would make it possible for them to both exist together as immortal God's for all eternity. However, because the original Spear returned to Unit-01 as the MP Evas were in the process of causing an Anti-AT Field via the synchronized resonating of their AT Fields and Unit-01s that would cause Third Impact and the annihilation of man, they exclaim "at least, our plans will be realized! The Spear has returned to us, and with it humanity will be die and be reborn as one (through HIP)". Obviously I'm paraphrasing there, but their excited reaction to the Spears return and them mentioning that their original plan will be realized really can only mean that previous to the Spear's return, HIP wasn't capable of happening.

It's unclear if HIP initiated via the MP Evas, the Spear, and Unit-01 would actually allow for Shinji (or even presumably Yui) the choice of rejecting it and the merged collective being of humanity that would result from HIP's initiation that way. This is where the importance of Rei's rejection of Gendo and his plan for 3I/HIP and her choice to fuse with Adam and Lilith and become a new God becomes important and maybe even essential for allowing Shinji the choice of accepting or rejecting HIP. The only reason Shinji would appear to have any choice at all is because GNR Rei actually offers him one after collecting everybody's souls before they could be by the new Tree of Life formed from the fusion of the Spear of Longinus and Unit-01+S2 engine. Now, it's entirely possible that Shinji could've rejected HIP before it truly initiated after becoming part of the Tree of LIfe, but I think it's highly doubtful he could ever reverse his decision after making it. As we see in the movie, he first chooses HIP and the world it offers where all human souls merge and complement each other, but he almost immediately regrets the decision. The likely reason for his having a choice at all is because GNR takes over the process of instrumentality and because of the nature of her existence as an all-powerful God, she guides Shinji and humanity through it, and cares to stick around long enough to let Shinji reverse what happened upon regretting it.

So, knowing she's privy to SEELE's plans (HIP) and even their potential backup plan if the original became impossible (Third Impact and the wholesale extinction of mankind), along with foreseeing Gendo's actions to counter them and his motivation to reunite with her if she stuck with her own plan to remain within Unit-01, and taking into account the angels themselves and the potential threat they pose humanity via the initiation of 3I themselves... whether or not the NGE 2 Hidden Case Files or whatever they're called accurately represent what would happen if an angel made contact with either Adam or Lilith or not. That is to say, for all of humanity and the angels to be reborn as angels with the FoL themselves, or, if not, the extinction of mankind if nothing else. With all their combined threats, the greatest hope humanity likely had (and by saying that I'm saying I fully agree with her assessment and predictions regarding fighting the Angels of and SEELE+Gendo) was for her to set things up in a way that ensured human individuality and humanity itself could be reborn after the initiation of HIP on her own specific terms... as she was the only one whose wish it was for humanity to continue surviving as individual people once the fight with the Angels was all said and done.

You have to take into consideration SEELE has almost unlimited resources when it comes to wealth and both political power and manpower. This necessitated her remaining within the Eva because how they wanted to use Lilith and Unit-01 in their very early beginning plan before the arrival of the first Angel or the birth of Rei and the implantation of Lilith's soul within her physical body. As Lilith originally was, she had no real Ego of her own... or the very least her lack of a human experience through Rei in no way means she is necessarily inclined to desire the survival of humanity as they are prior to 3I. Ignoring that, even still, her (correct) prediction that Gendo would clone her and place Lilith's soul within her body served as a necessary safety measure to prevent the initiation of HIP prior to Rei returning to and fusing with Lilith to restore her soul within her original body. She was surely aware of how Gendo would react and precede after her absorption in Unit-01's core as well, including the Rei+Lilith's soul bit, to try and reunite with her by merging himself with Rei and Adam's embryo and then fusing with Adam. As a matter of fact, she had to have been counting on it, because otherwise GNR couldn't gave guided Shinji through HIP or given him the option to undo it.

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Re: Was Yui nearly as bad as Gendo?

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:07 pm

^ Still, even though her intentions are good, Yui is still paying god by forcing things to go her way. In how you explained it, she thinks her way of doing thinks is best. She literally has control of the EVA, that's been evident since Episode 1. She could have made the difference in avoiding Instrumentality entirely, but chose to try and shape the word the way she thought best.
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