Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:35 pm

It's funny. Since I don't give two fucks about the mythology of Star Wars I'm able to treat the films as actual narratives and not part of some large neverending universe that I've grown up with. And while I've certainly been aware of who these characters are and have seen the original films they were never a founding element of my childhood that I latched onto throughout the years. Maybe because of this I find Luke's arch in The Last Jedi to be kind of perfect, wonderfully executed and allows Mark Hamill to give the first truly phenomenal performance of his career removed from voicework. I personally find it and his stellar actions in the third act are some of the most memorable in the series - he achieves arguably the most badass moment of the franchise to date and does so without taking a life, a truly epic moment of pacifism & easily the most Jedi thing in the series where they usually kill first & ask questions later - and it helps me respect and think about Luke more as a fully rounded character.

It's certainly superior to what they did with Han Solo in The Force Awakens.

But again, my connection to Luke the character is just that - he's a character.

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Chuckman » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:20 pm

The rejection of violence thing was done already. It’s not as much of a retread as a really big Death Star, but it’s still a retread.

The same idea was already done with more elegance in a better movie.

More importantly, I just realized something.

The Death Star in *Jedi* is bigger than the one in the first movie. So not only is the stupid thing in TFA a retread, *making it bigger* is also a retread. JJs movies are like the fractal form of being derivative.

Fuck I just realized that he made the bad guy starship in *Star Trek 2: Not Star Trek II* a bigger Enterprise, but black so you know it’s evil. He’s gone beyond ripping off himself to rip off the technique by which he rips off himself.

Fifty bucks says that Episode IX has a weaponized star in it. The *ultimate* Death Star! Muahahaha!
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Gazdakka Gizbang » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:17 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:That said, part of the problem here is that no matter how the producers intended Holdo to be read -she is pretty badass, and has one of the most visually striking heroic moments in the entire franchise- the audience is insistent that she's a diversity hire. The same as Rey is a Mary Sue.


I disagree. I don't consider Holdo to be a badass, and that's in spite of me liking Laura Dern, but I also don't consider her to be just a diversity hire. I think part of it came from Kathleen Kennedy's #TheForceIsFemale push, which lumps what could have been a role no-one would have thought twice about (love you, Mon Mothma) into a specific social agenda. Aside from that, any such arguments would be reaching at best.

My opinion is her character was very poorly handled and is part of what is arguably the most contradictory part of the film: using hyperspace to wreck a fleet. We're pretending the concept is possible when there's already 7 main films where this technology has been present and yet has never been used like this before, in a universe where droids exist meaning you don't have to kamikaze yourself anymore.

I've looked up talks about this and I've come to agree that her command was also fairly incompetent - her plan was nothing she couldn't have told Poe or the rest of her crew, and when you have Poe literally begging for information and a sum of your force is so demoralised they're willing to commit mutiny out of a lack of confidence in your leadership, something is wrong.

In all, it's a disappointing example of missed opportunity in the same way that Captain Phasma received virtually no character development and existed only for Finn to kill her.

Rey:
1. Daughter of a nobody and some jerk.
2. Survives a fight with a wounded, enraged not-Jedi not-Sith full of conflict over killing his dad who just got shot with a bowcaster
3. Just, like, totally went to the dark side for a minute
4. Waved a lightsaber around
5. Killed a bunch of jobber guards, with help from a guy with way more training, after he killed the not-Sith Lord
6. Lifted some rocks


You forgot that she somehow had no problem swimming when it was implied that she has little to no experience with water besides daily needs, defeats the last Jedi Knight after only a half-session of training, shoots down three TIE fighters with one shot in the Milennium Falcon despite never using the gun before, and as some have pointed out those rocks would easily outweigh an X-Wing, which she lifts effortlessly.

I've always considered Luke to have started out as a Mary Sue, but Empire was all about him failing:

- failed to see the Wampa and would have died if not for Solo
- failed to adequately defend Hoth with any noticeable impact, losing his gunner and ship in the process.
- failed to express patience in Yoda
- failed to lift the X-Wing
- failed in his trial at the cave
- failed at saving his friends in Cloud City
- showed promise in his opening bout against Vader, but is absolutely outclassed and loses his hand.

These when put together were all more than adequate in bringing Luke down from Gary Stu level. I wanted something similar to happen to Rey in TLJ: a humbling where she's put in her place and shown that the rest of the way is perilous and has to be earned through hard work and sacrifice. Sadly that didn't happen, and she still has no real character flaws nor has endured any hardships since us knowing her (her abandonment was probably more challenging to face than anything we've seen from her in person).

But I digress: these are just fuckups in a long, sad, 152 minutes of fuckups. Needless to say I despise TLJ, and I very much doubt there's anything Abrams can do to lend urgency to the next act when everything that could have been interesting has been largely stripped away.

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:45 pm

You forgot that she somehow had no problem swimming when it was implied that she has little to no experience with water besides daily needs, defeats the last Jedi Knight after only a half-session of training, shoots down three TIE fighters with one shot in the Milennium Falcon despite never using the gun before, and as some have pointed out those rocks would easily outweigh an X-Wing, which she lifts effortlessly.


Swimming: Infants can swim instinctively.

Half session of training: Luke goes from having his hand lopped off to schooling Vader with no actual training in between other than getting really mad.

Millenium Falcon gun: Like Luke did? You mean a person who turns out to be force sensitive displays latent force sensitivity?

Rock vs X-Wing: Size matters not.
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Gazdakka Gizbang » Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:30 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Swimming: Infants can swim instinctively.


Incorrect. What you're referring to is the Diving/Swimming Reflex, the most important thing of which to note is that infants cannot swim, but up until 6 months they exhibit reactions that increase their survivability when submerged.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_swimming

It was a missed opportunity for character development in that Rey could have been challenged by an environment that is new to her, exemplifying that she isn't perfect and has shortcomings of her own.

Half session of training: Luke goes from having his hand lopped off to schooling Vader with no actual training in between other than getting really mad.


General estimates place the time between Empire and RotJ between a few days to a year, with most veering towards the latter in order for certain events to be set in motion (Han being frozen long enough to get hibernation sickness, Lando infiltrating Jabba's guard before anyone else shows up).

Do I think that's long enough to get better at the Force? I'm a cynic so no, but it's longer than any stretch of time Rey is given. The EU tried to pad out the gap with fluff like Shadows of the Empire, but I wasn't much of a fan for "extra material" to begin with.

Millenium Falcon gun: Like Luke did? You mean a person who turns out to be force sensitive displays latent force sensitivity?


This is reaching. There's a good 2-3 minutes of Luke missing every target the first time he hops on the quad cannon, and each kill is from a flurry of shots being fired that are led towards the target once placement is established, whereas Rey's first shot kills three-in-one. Where no time has passed between TFA and TLJ so no fluff can be thrown into the middle to give excuses.

Rock vs X-Wing: Size matters not.


I would be inclined to agree since it is a direct quote from Yoda, however it's also worth noting that there is a point where a limitless amount of power becomes ridiculous and diminishing to the story. The Force Unleashed and its sequel feature a Jedi who pulls TIE fighters out of the sky in addition to a Star Destroyer out of low altitude - and this was once canonical. I consider this (The Force Unleashed) to be stupid, and no amount of "size matters not" handwaving will grant it justification.

As with before, I feel this was also missed opportunity where excess wasn't needed. Showing a struggle to pull out the first few rocks and pulling enough to make a doorway would have been more sufficient and helped to define limitations.

This is without mentioning her being more knowledgeable about the Falcon than either of its long-standing pilots and Force persuading a guard in an extremely short time with no training. Unlike most of her detractors however, I gave Rey more leeway in TFA expecting her to be rounded out by TLJ. That didn't happen, and I very much doubt anything will change by IX given that almost every trilogy involves the main hero getting stronger by the finale.

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Gus Hanson » Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:06 pm

Carrie Fisher will return for episode IX using unseen footage from Force Awakens is among the many announced returning cast members:
https://www.hypable.com/star-wars-episo ... -williams/
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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby Gazdakka Gizbang » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:58 pm

View Original PostGus Hanson wrote:Carrie Fisher will return for episode IX using unseen footage from Force Awakens is among the many announced returning cast members:
https://www.hypable.com/star-wars-episo ... -williams/


Last I heard they weren't going to use CGI work of Fisher in IX despite having permission to use it. Guess they flipped on that one since there isn't really a sincere way to write Leia out of the Resistance when she was its leader. I can understand that notion, even if I didn't like the CGI lifting of Tarkin in Rogue One.

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Re: Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

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Postby cyharding » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:44 pm

I just saw Rogue One this afternoon. This is the first of the Disney era Star Wars films that I have seen, and I did find it enjoyable, though some things did throw me off. One is that I didn't find it believable that Lyn would be so inspriational when she was speaking the Alliance council. It just seemed out of place to me. The second is that how would they figure out that Lyn's handprint would work to open the door in the tower. I could think of a few logical ideas myself, but it irked that there wasn't an in-movie explanation. They don't explain that. The third is that while I did get the Star Wars feel watching it, but I also sensed that it seemed....polished or refined. I didn't sense the pulp roots of it that I felt in the original trilogy, especially in A New Hope. The only other thing I could think of was that I like the droid character.

My apologies if this reads like a jumbled mess. These are more thoughts and impressions than acutal criticisms compared to what I have read from all of you in this thread. I hope all of you don't mind.


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