Darling in the Franxx (Studio Trigger)

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Re: Darling in the Franxx (Studio Trigger)

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:33 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:If DarliFra is the new NGE it's in the way that it handles the symbolism it uses.

I fail to detect anything about Darling in the FranXX which invites comparison with NGE.

Naomi didn't even have a prosthesis for her missing right arm in the last, hand-holding, scene with Ikuno.

Not did she or they allude to Hiro, her former partner.
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Re: Darling in the Franxx (Studio Trigger)

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:37 pm

Just here to say that having watched episode 23, the new Goro VA does a good job, but I miss the OG, that man has a beautiful voice.
Wasn't too impressed by the episode, but I have to admit, that even while being "rationally" unimpressed, some moments toward the end got to me somewhat, probably because the mix of happy anime music and space robots appealed to my child self, and they did a good job with Zero Two's facial expressions.

Still, the episode highlighted one of my main issues with Franxx when ZeroTwo is implied to not be able to do X thing till Hiro joins her. Not a sexist thing, since it would have been the same the other way around. But I think in a day and age where media pushes self improvement, the constant "you can't do it alone" is outdated, even if it is intended as romance.
Obviously it would be foolish to imply you don't need other people, I just think the show takes it overboard.

My stance on the Kokoro pregnancy is still the same.

And it's easy to get me emotionally, but IMO the Kokoro/Mitsuru scene was quite forced.
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Re: Darling in the Franxx (Studio Trigger)

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Postby silvermoonlight » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:39 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Naomi didn't even have a prosthesis for her missing right arm in the last, hand-holding, scene with Ikuno.
SPOILER: Show
Image


Yeah I remember seeing this and going what? Because its clear doctor Franxxs had robotics yet Naomi doesn't and stranger I thought this kind of tech would be used to keep Ikuno alive like giving her robotic organs. It just shows how much of an afterthought this was by the animators. Its like oh here's your gay couple but we don't care about there story line add to this the line that Ikuno has stopped the other ageing yet strangely she can't be saved by her own research. I am wondering if the dub is going to change the context of that scene to make it that she using her own research to save herself as much as them.
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Re: Darling in the Franxx (Studio Trigger)

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Postby robersora » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:47 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote: and the show as a whole is confirmed to be a meaningless mess.


______________

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:I wonder if I'll have somebody to talk to about Franxx this time next week? lol

Nah. This show will be forgotten soon. I'm already forgetting at as we s p e a k

What can I say, I've ranted enough about the world view already. In the end, it doesn't even matter, as they throw out all semblance of theme and meaning out of the window to quickly indulge in a bastardization of the endings of Gun and Diebuster at the same time. I understand now, that having babies is obligatory and good for the human race, and everyone must adhere to the cause, no matter the personal feelings, since we are obviously in danger of dying out because nobody reproduces. I am fully aware of the fact, that Japan is, in fact, shrinking. But the ideology this show tries to sell to remedy that fact is hilariously short sighted.
Oh man.
I'm already ranting again.
At least I'm not alone.
Silvermoonlight obviously shares my feelings on that front to a degree, but


View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:Ep 24 should have been a movie, it feels so rushed and thrown together last minute or they should have ended the season on Zero Two doing her Asuka comma then used the second season to fix there glaring issues hurtful issues and tropes as well as use that season to show Hero's and Zero Two's trip across the universe and used it to help the fix the relationship issues fully while showing the changing world and people growing up.

Look. This is some trashy Anime. It doesn't matter, what world view it sells. It's entertainment for very specific people. It won't convince anyone to start a fascist revolution. The part that's bothering me much more is, that this studio Trigger is composed of people who seem to operate under those archaic assumptions. I know Japan is conservative, so is Austria. But Trigger always seemed like the balls to the walls rock'n'roll rebels, when in fact, they actually aren't.

As for your suggestions. Yes.There are myriad of ways to convey what they try to convey in a way that's not trite. But I don't think wish fulfillment would have made it better in any way. The ending is fine, from an idea standpoint. The execution is horrendous, tho.


The best part of the finale was the new voice of Goro. I know the original VA is sick, but his new deep voice was kinda sudden and made me crack up.
Multiple people here said that it was bad, because it was clichéd. I don't think that's true. It was bad, because it was poorly executed.
The writing was as lousy as always, full of "deep" monologues, people who start screaming on a hill, because a child felt it after touching a statue and "as you know" dialogue.
They went for the feelz in the end. But while I watched in awe when Gun and Diebuster ended, in DarliFra I felt absolutely nothing besides slightly relieved it's over.

In the end, I'm happy the grudge is over and nobody will talk about this shiftiest again.
Pros: Some battles were ok, I liked the robot designs, it was "easy" to watch. I am very upset that we finally got another Gainax show, created by people who were clearly influenced by the greats and their spirit, but are severely less talented and competent
It's shit. Watch the great Gainax shows instead.
2/10





View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:And I'll just leave this example of early optimism here
Postran1 wrote:
Darling in the Franxx is Evangelion for Gen Z. I'm cashing in all my chips in regard to Atsushi Nishigori becoming the next -- and ultimately more prestigious -- Hideaki Anno.

He was clearly just memeing.

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Meanwhile, unless we get a Gundam-style UNDERSTANDING event out of the blue, Hiro is going to end up terminating many trillions (maybe more) of innocent beings, several billion of which will have been human, as a side-effect of destroying VIRM. It's likely to make Shinji's genocidal efforts as Impact Boy look quite amateurish.

LMAO


View Original PostBlockio wrote:After a bit of thinking, it came to my mind that the overall show would be a lot better if you don't watch Ep 18 (or whatever number the Dr. Frank flashback was) and Ep 24. Has anyone actually tried that?

No. If you watch carefully, the whole show is ill conceived right from the get go. The problems run deeper than "I dislike this moment". I'd even argue that moment to moment this show is kinda entertaining, because overall the creative staff is at least competent in editing together something that will not bore you moment to moment.

_______________

At the Trigger panel the staff talked about receiving Death threats. It's amazing, how this show equally aggravated literal proto-fascist who were disturbed their waifu hat her own feelings and character arc, lefties who cannot handle a world view that could lead to them being killed and people who simply like quality in shows.
They also mentioned, that it was really tough working together with A1 and Cloverworks. I can imagine.

________________

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:I think here is a pretty good place to drop that Trigger has a Patreon now:
https://www.patreon.com/studioTRIGGER/overview
You can support them with as low as 1$ a month and get access to illustrations they'll be posting, and you help a very good animation studio out.

lol, after our scathing reviews in this thread, this post comedic timing is on point.
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Re: Darling in the Franxx (Studio Trigger)

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Postby silvermoonlight » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:10 pm

View Original Postrobersora wrote:
Look. This is some trashy Anime. It doesn't matter, what world view it sells. It's entertainment for very specific people. It won't convince anyone to start a fascist revolution. The part that's bothering me much more is, that this studio Trigger is composed of people who seem to operate under those archaic assumptions. I know Japan is conservative, so is Austria. But Trigger always seemed like the balls to the walls rock'n'roll rebels, when in fact, they actually aren't.

As for your suggestions. Yes.There are myriad of ways to convey what they try to convey in a way that's not trite. But I don't think wish fulfillment would have made it better in any way. The ending is fine, from an idea standpoint. The execution is horrendous, tho.


The best part of the finale was the new voice of Goro. I know the original VA is sick, but his new deep voice was kinda sudden and made me crack up.
Multiple people here said that it was bad, because it was clichéd. I don't think that's true. It was bad, because it was poorly executed.
The writing was as lousy as always, full of "deep" monologues, people who start screaming on a hill, because a child felt it after touching a statue and "as you know" dialogue.
They went for the feelz in the end. But while I watched in awe when Gun and Diebuster ended, in DarliFra I felt absolutely nothing besides slightly relieved it's over.

In the end, I'm happy the grudge is over and nobody will talk about this shiftiest again.
Pros: Some battles were ok, I liked the robot designs, it was "easy" to watch. I am very upset that we finally got another Gainax show, created by people who were clearly influenced by the greats and their spirit, but are severely less talented and competent
It's shit. Watch the great Gainax shows instead.
2/10


Yeah your right its anime trash I won't disagree with that I guess I'm just super pissed off because keep imaging what this could have been its why I'm still angry about it even now (Don't worry by tomorrow I will no longer care) because I just think what could have been like there was so much potential there to be one of the greats and they just blew it so badly.

Like I've never seen such a train wreck in an anime series and I've seen a lot of bad ones but they just don't compare to this and the reality is I expect anime to be better on the whole and try harder than Hollywood not mirror what they do with lazy as fuck writing while jarring in every negative trope and idea possible... or give an ending like they did which is awful, depressing and bad all around :irked:
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Postby robersora » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:00 pm

^
I can see that, but heads up... There are already shows who did all those ideas better in every way.
Diebuster is my number 1 example.
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Postby AR-99 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:37 pm

Watched ep 24 Saturday night during Anime Expo. I had read the spoilers earlier in the day but seeing it in person improved by view of the ending. However not the series as a whole. The material and potential were there, however the execution fell through. The high ratings on MAL (https://myanimelist.net/anime/35849/Dar ... the_FranXX), Crunchyroll (http://www.crunchyroll.com/darling-in-the-franxx), and AniDB (https://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=13259)are puzzling me. What'd I miss?

I did miss the details like Naomi's missing arm and her holding Ikuno's hand. However Mitsuru's wince when he called Kokoro by name was noticeable since there was a distinct lack of wincing from both of them in ep 23. Or he hadn't said it in a while so he had gotten resensitized.

If there is a movie made I'm curious as to how it would be handled. Trigger hasn't made movies for their series, but this is a joint production.

Shigeto Koyama (mecha design) and Hiromi Wakabayashi were at AX BTW. Not finding a reliable source for Wakabayashi's involvement with Darlifra but he is positioned to speak on it. http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-featur ... reddit-ama

Darlifra is Crunchyroll Expo's highlight anime this year (last year it was Yuri on Ice). Producer Yuichi Fukushima (Cloverworks), director Atsushi Nishigori, and character designer Masayoshi Tanaka will be there. The con is local to me and despite my feelings towards the series I'm thinking of going to see how the reception is from the fans and how the Nishigori especially handles it.

https://crunchyrollexpo.com/darling-in-the-franxx/
Last edited by AR-99 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Darling in the Franxx (Studio Trigger)

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Postby kuribo-04 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:08 pm

Turns out Masayuki, our Evangelion episode 24 boi, storyboarded Franxx episode 4:
https://twitter.com/annocinema/status/1013862754279665664
Last edited by kuribo-04 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Darling in the Franxx (Studio Trigger)

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Postby El Squibbonator » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:27 pm

DarliFra is literally just NGE with more explicit innuendo. That's all there is to it.
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Postby robersora » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:37 pm

^
Take that back. If Anno was dead, he'd rotate in his grave at high speed right now.
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Re: Darling in the Franxx (Studio Trigger)

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Postby cyharding » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:34 pm

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:I expect anime to be better on the whole and try harder than Hollywood not mirror what they do with lazy as fuck writing while jarring in every negative trope and idea possible... or give an ending like they did which is awful, depressing and bad all around

Forgive me, but while I agree that the writing is very, very poor, I don't understand what you mean by negative trope. I do know what tropes are, but could you please define what you would call negative ones.

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Postby silvermoonlight » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:39 am

View Original Postcyharding wrote:Forgive me, but while I agree that the writing is very, very poor, I don't understand what you mean by negative trope. I do know what tropes are, but could you please define what you would call negative ones.


In Franxxs the negative tropes would be teen pregnancy though just to clarify this can be done well its just not used well in this series. The reason its not used well is Franxxs uses it like a magic bullet but misunderstands the darker issues of teen pregnancy and that some times teens are just not mature enough to bring up children resulting in issues as the child grows up or it being handed to the teens parents.

The other issue is though its a sci fi world its clear no one has given birth naturally for a very long time this means there might be issues with the mother's body and that women could die in childbirth but franxxs over looks this in favour of piling kids on every character in the end episode.

Bury your gays is the other bad trope which is when you kill of the guy character before the heterosexual ones which is still an issue in western media though its getting less due to backlash. It also ties in to the gay characters story line never being fully followed through or truly cared about which happened in this series as the gay character girlfriend is an after thought also the idea of female/female piloting is never tested in the show only male/male but its not for that reason.

This next one is more a reference to gender roles/rigidity and sexuality though I'm not sure if the trope has a name it's when you push that a woman's only role is to punch out children and be the home maker which Franxxs forces down your throat in the final episode.This can play in to male characters as well in that there only there to be warriors and violent and are not kind to women or children and not able to cry on screen.

Gender rigidity is a dangerous ideal it is about putting genders in boxes and about telling men and women you must conform to certain roles and places in sociality and you are not allowed out of this box and if you do prepare to have mockery or even violence against you because your doing something outside your gender role. (Great example is heterosexual men who enjoy dance can be mocked for being gay or called pussy because they are not accepted by there peers due to negative gender ideals)

The issue with Frannxxs is it sets up a rigid gender world in terms of the piolts and the piloting system yet its never subverted or questioned by the other characters only the gay character does but her feelings are never followed through in the story line. At no point do the male/female characters switch seats in the cock pit there just no exploration of this, no trying to be different no scenes of them finding old books of what the world used to be like, or questioning there self identity or place in sociality only Zero Two does this but for a different reason which revolves around the burning need to be human.

The final really bad one is depression can be cured though love which is used heavily in Zero Two's character and really ruined the show for me. Because when I first watched Zero Two I saw a lot of Asuka in her its just unlike Asuka she's more carefree and openly sexual and flies of the handle way more violently out side the cockpit but seeing her suddenly being fine after Hero accepted her love made so mad as in reality her character despite being happy should have still had highs and lows or outbursts as depression doesn't just go away . Its a long process of struggle and a relationship helps you but it doesn't cure you and at no point does the anime question that and Hero/Zero Two at the start have an unhealthy relationship but the anime does not go out of the way to fix this fully.

The other thing although its not quite related to this was that her and Hero were never reunited with the squad at the end and I wanted this badly because in the show I saw this as the interracial marriage or the character of colour because she's not human and these were the characters I wanted to be shown having children not the others (Even if its using IVF) because Zero Two's main thing is I want to human I want to be accepted as human and the stronger message to send would have been full acceptance in to this new human world and that her none human genes become part of its fabric and implying that she had descendants. (That should have been the kids under the tree in the end shot one human looking and one still carrying the genes with horns)

SPOILER: Show
Because her being reincarnated as fully human to me undermines the whole issue that people still face and struggle with off being different and needing acceptance and being accepted and because characters of colour are rare in anime I feel they really ruined this one in my view.
Last edited by silvermoonlight on Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:01 am, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: Darling in the Franxx (Studio Trigger)

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:17 am

Also, the way that Hiro pretty much becomes a Klaxosaur from having licked Zerotsū's blood that one time feeds right into the former US racist "one drop of blood" doctrine.
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Postby kuribo-04 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:45 am

A small correction, I said Masayuki storyboarded episode 5, but it was 4.
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Postby AR-99 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:16 pm

Also a correction from me, AniDB has a 10 rating scale and Darlifra's aggregate rating right now is < 5.

Watched ep 24 again. Seeing the klaxosaur fleet returning drove home how pointless the human struggle would have been if the klaxosaurs had gotten serious with them. Finally it came down to klaxosaur-derived technology and a pair of klaxo-humans to save the universe (for now), making the red herring villains to indirectly be the ultimate heroes.

Given that 02 and Hiro had become merged together to form Strelizia Apasu, returning them to some semblance of human form as they return to Earth while Squad 13 was still alive witht 02 leaving her physical body and Hiro becoming half klaxosaur would have required more exposition that would have made the ending more of a mess.
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Postby cyharding » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:23 pm

@silvermoonlight: Thank you so much for replying. You raise some interesting points, though I would have to respectfully disagree with some of them. it would take a while to make my points, and based on your previous posts, I'm not sure if you want to discuss this show anymore, so if you want to read them, please tell me.

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Postby silvermoonlight » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:38 am

View Original Postcyharding wrote:@silvermoonlight: Thank you so much for replying. You raise some interesting points, though I would have to respectfully disagree with some of them. it would take a while to make my points, and based on your previous posts, I'm not sure if you want to discuss this show anymore, so if you want to read them, please tell me.


No its okay please go ahead my option is just my thoughts and I respect and understand that others may feel very differently about this show, so don't let my thoughts stop you putting down your own ^_^

If I'm honest my anger stems not from what the show became but from the what it could have been as I really thought this could have been an updated modern NGE retelling which could have gone in to those kinds of issues. I also realize that if was a lot younger and I watched this as a lot of people have now I would have seen it as awesome and and proberbly really enjoyed it as my first stepping stone in to anime. I think the problem is I've seen a lot of really good anime/manga before this hence why I feel jaded about it.
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Postby cyharding » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:22 am

Thank you once again, and I apologize for being a little late with this. What I want to say are not direct criticisms of your points, but rather a comment on them that shows where I see things about the show, especially on this point:

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:This next one is more a reference to gender roles/rigidity and sexuality though I'm not sure if the trope has a name it's when you push that a woman's only role is to punch out children and be the home maker which Franxxs forces down your throat in the final episode.This can play in to male characters as well in that there only there to be warriors and violent and are not kind to women or children and not able to cry on screen.


In regards to the Kokoro/Mitsuru subplot, I didn't have too much trouble with that part of the show. You see, I am a practicing Catholic (though not a perfect one I'll admit), and while I do not know everything about the Church's social teaching, I know enough of it that I found parallels with that teaching in various parts of the show, especially in Kokoro's speech in episode 17 to the nines and nine alpha's response to it, and I think with Nana & Hatchi later on in the episode. It really suprised me as it's very unlikely that anyone on the show's creative staff is even Christian to begin with (I read somewhere that only 2% of the Japanese population identify as such). The fact that the staff did write these things, it just seems to me as if there is a reflection of the divine order in humanity, though that is just my personal opinion. It always made me feel uncomfortable when some people see children a a burden or a curse, and it was nice to see a sci-fi show say otherwise.


View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:If I'm honest my anger stems not from what the show became but from the what it could have been as I really thought this could have been an updated modern NGE retelling which could have gone in to those kinds of issues. I also realize that if was a lot younger and I watched this as a lot of people have now I would have seen it as awesome and and proberbly really enjoyed it as my first stepping stone in to anime. I think the problem is I've seen a lot of really good anime/manga before this hence why I feel jaded about it.

That's what I've been hearing from other parts of the internet, that there was great potential, but it was wasted. As I stated in an earlier post, animation is a complicated affair, and we don't know what outside factors led to the creative staff doing what they did, the only one I can think of is the matter over Goro's original VA. I know if I was a writer on that show, I would do many things differently (getting rid of VIRM for one). Mecha stories aren't easy (I do have some experience with that...if you call it experience), but the staff should have done better.

If you have any questions on what I wrote, please reply or PM me. ^_^

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Re: Darling in the Franxx (Studio Trigger)

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Postby silvermoonlight » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:18 pm

View Original Postcyharding wrote:Thank you once again, and I apologize for being a little late with this. What I want to say are not direct criticisms of your points, but rather a comment on them that shows where I see things about the show, especially on this point:


No problem we all have lives ^_^


In regards to the Kokoro/Mitsuru subplot, I didn't have too much trouble with that part of the show. You see, I am a practicing Catholic (though not a perfect one I'll admit), and while I do not know everything about the Church's social teaching, I know enough of it that I found parallels with that teaching in various parts of the show, especially in Kokoro's speech in episode 17 to the nines and nine alpha's response to it, and I think with Nana & Hatchi later on in the episode. It really suprised me as it's very unlikely that anyone on the show's creative staff is even Christian to begin with (I read somewhere that only 2% of the Japanese population identify as such). The fact that the staff did write these things, it just seems to me as if there is a reflection of the divine order in humanity, though that is just my personal opinion. It always made me feel uncomfortable when some people see children a a burden or a curse, and it was nice to see a sci-fi show say otherwise.


Now that's really interesting because I didn't think about how people view the show from a religious stand point and how people could relate to that and It does make me wonder though if they were using that religious parallel the same way Evangelion did because they thought it might make the show more popular.

I will say that I don't see children as a burden in media its more that I think you shouldn't push it to heavily on female characters like there should be a balance. Hence why I think in the end episode it should have shown some female characters going down a career path while others could still have had kids, it more allowing the viewer to see that there genders have a choices in terms of life paths.


That's what I've been hearing from other parts of the internet, that there was great potential, but it was wasted. As I stated in an earlier post, animation is a complicated affair, and we don't know what outside factors led to the creative staff doing what they did, the only one I can think of is the matter over Goro's original VA. I know if I was a writer on that show, I would do many things differently (getting rid of VIRM for one). Mecha stories aren't easy (I do have some experience with that...if you call it experience), but the staff should have done better.


I agree there were a lot of factors involved I know if I had written this I would have taken it very much in the Evangelion series/manga direction and made it much more serious (Like the tone in ep 13 with humour here and there along with slightly toned down fan service) and more LGBT and gender positive in places but that's just me.
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Re: Darling in the Franxx (Studio Trigger)

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:06 pm

Gigguk on Darling in the FranXX
SPOILER: Show
It was Hideaki Anno all the time!!!
SPOILER: Show
(That was actually 3.0+1.0...)
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