NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby VUX » Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:22 pm

AGCT Sameal, you said that the Eva’s nostrils are probably inherited from the FAR, does that mean they resembled miniature evangelions?
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:07 am

View Original PostVUX wrote:AGCT Sameal, you said that the Eva’s nostrils are probably inherited from the FAR, does that mean they resembled miniature evangelions?

Read these:

post/878101/NGE2-First-Ancestral-Race-and-Seeds-of-Life/#878101
post/878592/Eva-Anatomy-and-Physiology-2018-Edition/#878592

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby VUX » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:23 pm

Is it possible for other aliens to have existed alongside the FAR, if so, they wouldn’t be made out of LCL, right?
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Lavinius » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:12 pm

View Original PostVUX wrote:Is it possible for other aliens to have existed alongside the FAR, if so, they wouldn’t be made out of LCL, right?

Nothing would seem to keep races unrelated from the FAR from existing.
As for whether they would be made of LCL, I wouldn't say they'd have to be, but there's no reason that they wouldn't be either. Note, though, that "made of LCL" is kind of misleading. A Lilin is made of blood, flesh, bone, and every other substance that makes up the human body. What LCL seems to be is an undifferentiated form of organic matter, a primal chaotic water which a body turns to when robbed of a soul & AT field to give it shape.
For my part, I've speculated (mostly on æsthetic grounds) that the Lance of Longinus is a representative of an alien race of separate origin who were allied to the FAR.

EDIT:
Whether or not other aliens do exist, it would seem that Seele doesn't think that they do- indeed, they seem to be unaware that other Seeds of Life exist at all. For they speak of their Instrumentality (which presumably only has effects on Earth and its vicinity) as uniting "all life"- not just "all life on Earth". Moreover, they seek to form a perfect, complete being- and a perfect being which could be rivaled by some other FAR descendants forming one themselves or messed with by some random alien fleet they've never heard of would hardly be perfect.
On the other hand, perhaps Seele could assume that other FAR descendants, if they exist, would eventually be assimilated into the perfect being also. But they don't seem to envision their Instrumentality being a process taking millions(?) of years. So it would seem that they're unaware of the existence of Seeds of Life other than Adam and Lilith at all.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby VUX » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:38 pm

Also, I believe that most of them would be similar to angels, since four of the seven seeds are Fruits of Life, while only three seeds are Fruits of Knowledge.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:57 pm

Vux: The distribution of Fruits to Seeds is completely unknown.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:34 pm

View Original PostVUX wrote:Is it possible for other aliens to have existed alongside the FAR, if so, they wouldn’t be made out of LCL, right?

What Lavinius said. LCL may have properties intrinsic to its physical structure or some other aspect of its nature that makes it predisposed to its functions concerning life and the soul, and indeed, perhaps make it one or the only viable candidate for the successful execution of those functions.

Think of it like the element Carbon. It's possible, due to its similarities, that there could actually be silicon-based life out there too, but Carbon is significantly superior in the nature of its properties when it comes to what's necessary for the formation of organic molecules (specifically its ability to form long chains of itself--yeah, silicon can form chains too, but not as easily or effectively as carbon can, meaning statistically carbon is going to beat it to the punch forming organic molecules except by total fluke). It's entirely possible, despite Anno most likely never thinking about things this far, that LCL is (near) singularly necessary, universally, for the emergence of life and beings possessing souls.

Given the inspiration taken from the Kabbalah and Gnosticism, it's not unlikely that LCL represents the physical manifestation of the primordial, existential life energy responsible for seeding the womb of empty space, leading to the emergence of physical matter and energy. In terms of the Kabbalah, this would be Ohr Ein Sof. It is not the ultimate God/The ALL(if you're familiar with Hermeticism), which in the Kabbalah is not capable (and yet is for some reason forbidden?) of being assigned a name or any kind of designation symbolically because any symbol or image betrays the perfect unity of His being because the division/separation inherent to symbols and understandings (or, indeed, any form of existence containing duality). Rather, it is God as He existed following self-manifestation, who then continued to seed the rest of existence through the divine emanations of His will.

Ohr Ein Sof can be thought of as the blind dumb god that mindlessly seeded all of creation. Creation is simply an act that happens as a result of the existence of His self-manifestation. It is through the other Divine Emanations that form and substance is given to the world. LCL is like the Ohr Ein Sof, and it is through the will of the soul and its interaction with physical matter that it is given shape and life takes the form that is envisioned in the mind/heart. It is the primordial essence of living beings deconstructed into its most basic fundamental state.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:27 pm

Subtitled videos that include the key content from Rei and Kaworu's PSP scenarios are now available. Much of Kaworu's scenario has been previously translated, but this is more complete and freshly polished. I've mentioned some of the content from Rei's before, but as far as I know this is the first time it's been available in English. Enjoy!

- Rei (Beyond Her Heart)
- Kaworu (Broken Wings)

To grab transcripts of the subtitles, look beneath the YT video player. To the right of "SAVE", there should be a button with an ellipsis symbol. Click that, and the option "Open Transcript" should present. You can copy and paste from there.

At some point I'll be looking to create a central "Expanded lore from NGE2" sticky that will compile links to translations and/or videos.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Jibe » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:25 pm

Thanks a lot!!!!!!!

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:20 pm

Lots of different points to address, so let's go:

- The concept of "other universes" doesn't necessarily means "from another dimension" or "from a parallel universe". In real-life astrophysics, it usually means a region of space with no causal connection to another specific one on any timeline. To illustrate, a planet that is 5cm after the absolute observable limit from Earth is considered "on another universe". And since there's no causal connection on any timeline, it's entirely plausible that this "other universe" may have different physical properties from our own. That being the case, the FAR coming from "another universe" may not be a too radical of a change - it can simply mean that they can travel at superluminal speeds (one of the potential side-effects of a Rosen-Einstein bridge cited by Ritsuko on Leliel's matter);

- Thinking it as an autonomous system, it's not entirely implausible that the behavior of the Spear of Longinus is logically inconsistent. AFAIK, it's not directly stated that it does have a soul inside it, so we can plausibly infer that it has an artificial intelligence of sorts. However, AI does not work exactly as humans... Given a set of parameters well outside the specified delta, an AI behavior can be extremely erratic. Think of a neural network programed to change the hair color of the people on a given picture. Now feed it with the image of a mushroom. The resulting may as well be a picture of a cocker spaniel! Without giving the Spear a proper soul, intellect and instruction on the reasoning behind its programming, it's actually surprising that it didn't morphed into an singing, flying dolphin the moment the Katsuragi Team took it off from Adam's chest...

- Knowing that Lilith deliberately pursued Adam and crash-landed on Earth, intended on forcibly take the FoL from him, it makes me wonder if her Spear was really lost on the 1st Impact, or was ditched by her on some black-hole along the way... Or even if she bothered to embark with one in the first place! Of course, assuming that the Spear is not necessary to perform the Seed's duties once implanted on a planet, which may not be the case;

- Also, regarding Lilith: even though we don't have a large sample size, the fact that an individual that was chosen as being responsible for the survival of the entire species took the risk of jeopardizing at least a considerable fraction of the effort taken, in order to get her desired FoL indicates that, at least, a significant propensity for conflict was ingrained into FAR's culture. More on this latter;

- Fuyutsuki and Keel mentions that Eva 01 was in the same level as god, once it gets both the FoK and FoL. Knowing that the gods of the Eva universe would be the FAR, it's at least tantalizing to assume that they too had both Fruits in their bodies. Reichu argued earlier in this topic that since the FAR was technologically advanced, them it should have the FoK, and developed its technological expertise due to being physically limited. However, one can posit that technological advancement is not necessarily a fruit of physical limitation, but a direct result of having a sapient mind. That being the case, we cannot rule out the possibility that the FAR indeed had both fruits, maybe using the extreme capabilities provided by them to achieve technical marvels, akin to magic in some points. The fact that they were capable of implement a plan to save their species from impending doom, sending at least part of their numbers to another universe to safeguard their legacy seems to imply this;

- The above point begs the question: how can a species be driven to extinction, despite having both Fruits? We can infer from the lengths taken to ensure that no different Fruits would end up on the same planet, and the direct prohibition on their integration on the same organism, that this was precisely the root cause. Considering the ease of humankind to screw up its environment and numbers despite having only the FoK, we can only imagine what kind of catastrophes our species would cause having also the FoL and its extreme capabilities. Having only her physical carrier and no FoL, Lilith was capable of avoid Adam's children proliferation for at least 3 billion years. And if we think that the chosen representative for a group of the species' souls was willing to do that, we can only assume that the FAR was far from being completely pacific, and may as well be directly responsible for their own extinction. That being said, it's only natural to imagine that, in order to avoid the same destiny to their legacy, the physical and mental capabilities of the species (FoL and FoK, respectively) were divided between their carriers' types and their reunification avoided as possible;

I think that's it for now. Does anyone agree with the points above?

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:31 pm

I would have to think about most of what you've said, to avoid kneejerk responses. The only point I can make at this time relates to this:

View Original PostGuiBiancarelli wrote:Reichu argued earlier in this topic that since the FAR was technologically advanced, them it should have the FoK, and developed its technological expertise due to being physically limited. However, one can posit that technological advancement is not necessarily a fruit of physical limitation, but a direct result of having a sapient mind.

To me, this simply creates piles of new and unnecessary questions. Where did that sapient mind come from? If you don't believe the FAR possessed physical limitations, then aren't you effectively saying that they weren't shaped by evolutionary pressures? A humanoid species that is both highly intelligent AND not accountable to the laws of thermodynamics just magically happened? ("A wizard did it"?) Can a "species" even meaningfully exist in a context completely divorced from the evolutionary paradigm?

Not to mention, that a set of beings who aren't accountable to the laws of thermodynamics would even bother with technology at all is logically inconsistent. If you're something like an Angel and can make physical reality change just by thinking about it, why in the world would you bother with technology? Like, suppose our own species all suddenly had both fruits. Do you really think we would keep doing everything the same way, just because "sapience"? Instantly eliminating the need for food, water, breathable air, shelter, medicine, etc., automatically makes the majority of our tech serve no purpose. The link between being physically limited and using technology really cannot be understated here; limitations are in and of themselves the reason why the tech exists. Are you going to keep relying on all of these highly specialized and piecemeal external methods to get stuff done, when any single person can now make effectively anything happen, simply by thinking about it? Are you going to keep taking cars and airplanes and boats when you can shapeshift and use ATF propulsion, or even warp space directly, to go anywhere you want? Like, you want to travel in space? With the Fruit of Life, you don't have to build anything to get you there, or anything to keep you alive in a vacuum; your A.T. Field and perpetual energy generation handles it all. Or, say, you want to fire a concentrated stream of photons at that jerk from work? Just turn yourself into the means of accumulation and propulsion.

This doesn't even get into the whole issue of why a species where any given member is capable of leaving the planet and traveling through space would do something as utterly foolhardy and counterintuitive as place their collective future into the hands of a mere seven individuals and seven giant rock-entombed balls.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:11 am

Reichu wrote:I would have to think about most of what you've said, to avoid kneejerk responses.


Please, take your time! It's good to know that in some way, the exposition is being mentally provocative ^_^
It's my main reason to follow Evangelion, actually :D

Reichu wrote:If you don't believe the FAR possessed physical limitations, then aren't you effectively saying that they weren't shaped by evolutionary pressures?


Actually, I'm not. The point I'm making is that PHYSICAL limitation may not be the one single and determinant factor that drives technological advancement. Think of it in this way: here on planet Earth, all lifeforms are subject to a whole lot of limitations, however we have records of only one species achieving a significant level of technology. Sure, we do know that other species develop simple tools and strategies to solve some problems, but all the cases are pretty simple and can be viewed as trivial (on the statistical term). Complex life has some 3 billion years or so, and even in this huge time frame, we can account for only one species that developed technology on a point to bring a (more or less) conscious change to our environment as a whole. Could it be that Homo sapiens is even more physically limited than any other species that existed on this planet? Hardly. So, we have to turn our views elsewhere to find other factors that can account for our technological expertise. Based on our case, the most accepted factors would be three things:

1. Abstract thinking - the ability to conceptualize non-physical constructs;
2. Having a theory of mind - the knowing that other entities are intrinsically separated from us;
3. Meta-cognition - the power of thinking about our thinking;

We don't know how or when these factors were developed, in which order, and also detected some of them in other species, however not all of them. In evolutionary psychology, we think of them as the basis for our "sapience". But based on their influence on our behavior as a species, in Eva universe, one could easily call the set of these three "the Fruit of Knowledge".
Note that in no point they make reference to physical limitations, in fact we don't actually know what causes a species to develop one or all of them. Even on a darwinian evolution scenario, we can more or less attribute its origins to a confluence of complex neural capacity and pure chance, not necessarily being physically limited to deal with evolutionary pressures.

Reichu wrote:Instantly eliminating the need for food, water, breathable air, shelter, medicine, etc., automatically makes the majority of our tech serve no purpose.


The majority, maybe yes. At least the one regarding our physiological needs. The concept of technology and its application, however no. Even in a post-scarcity scenario, there is needing, just not basal ones. Even if the theory is somewhat old, we can use Maslow's hierarchy of needs: being able to satisfy the most basic ones does not instantly qualifies you to satisfy the most abstract and complex of the set. On cognitive psychology we're beginning to get evidence that it's even impossible, that the development of new needs is intrinsically linked to higher cognitive functions! If the matter is still dubious, I can recommend Isaac Arthur's video on the subject, it's available on youtube under the title "Post Scarcity Civilizations". He does have a longer explanation on the subject and uses a very nice logical chain to expose his points. (BTW, I recommend his channel as a whole! It's amazing on virtually all the themes explored, in a truly realistic sci-fi approach.)

Reichu wrote:why a species where any given member is capable of leaving the planet and traveling through space would do something as utterly foolhardy and counterintuitive as place their collective future into the hands of a mere seven individuals and seven giant rock-entombed balls.


We don't actually know the circumstances which led them to do that... It can range from "for the next millennia all of our civilization's resources will be poured on the development of these carriers, and the Chosen Ones will guide our people to a new beginning after our sun exhausts its life, as dictated by our Sacred Scrolls" to "OK kids, the previous alarm was not a drill... Adam-senpai here will serve as your monitor, please do as in the training and cast-off your physical forms to embark in the vessel. Adam-kun, remember the training for the emergency scenario: go get some FoL and fly off before shit hits the fan, I'll buy you guys a couple more hours... If the children asks, tell them that momma and daddy will be with them shortly."

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:06 am

> We don't actually know the circumstances which led them to do that...

"Knowing we would lose our home world, we set off on a journey into the midst of space." First post in the thread.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:27 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:"Knowing we would lose our home world, we set off on a journey into the midst of space." First post in the thread.


Yes, I'm aware of that... What I'm saying is that this phrase is somewhat vague: We don't know the amount of preparation that they had, we don't know if there was some cultural directive, if the planning involved the entire race or some faction, the criteria used to select the Seeds, how many resources were mobilized to perform it, if only the Seeds were aware of the implications or if the knowledge was shared with the souls embarked, if they even believed if they would be successful, if they were in some way forced to comply with the plan... All of that may seems irrelevant, but it isn't! In light of all the information we have regarding the event, we don't know the conditions on the distribution of the Fruits for the Seeds, why exactly Lilth chose to disregard the plan, what led them to split the Fruits and forbid its union, etc.
We just know that:

- FAR home-world would seemly go kaboom in an unspecified yet seemly relevant (to the FAR involved in the plan) amount of time;
- A number of souls were entrusted to the Seeds;
- A limited amount of FoL was available to be split between the carriers;
- Adam took off before Lilith;
- Lilith considered imperative to get the FoL, despite it possibly being a risk to the plan;

Using this data and scavenging for other tidbits, we're trying to get some insight into the scenario the FAR was facing. That's what I'm trying to do, based on logical reasoning :)
Sorry if my last paragraph on my previous post was not clear regarding it.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Melkor » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:36 pm

Wait, there's actually seven Seeds of Life in total? That's the first I've heard of this. I knew about the First Ancestral Race, but I had no idea that they actually created five other Seeds of Life besides the Black Moon and White Moon. Why only seven though? You would think they would want there to be an even number, like eight, so that way there would be an equal number of Fruits of Life and Fruits of Knowledge. Does Seele's symbol and Lilith's mask having seven eyes on it have something to do with the number of Seeds of Life? Is each Seed of Life a different color, or are they all either Black or White Moons? If I were to make a guess as to the colors of the others Moons, I would say there is at least also a Blue Moon and a Red Moon somewhere out there too. Blue and red are colors that are naturally opposed to each other, just like black and white are.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:23 am

Melkor, the tidbit about there being seven is from the very first post in this thread, and subsequently provided with a revised translation through the videos I linked on this very page.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Kendrix » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:01 am

I still can't get that the big seminal tragedy that two seeds just happened to crash on the same planet was ultimately caused deliberately - and it's the person or entity who was technically on Team Human who fired the first shot, putting the angels sort of in the right, which might be a statement about human nature...
So not only was Second Impact a deliberate Inside job, so was First Impact

I definitely concur with Reichu's assesment that there might've been conflicts among them - kinda makes me think of the take in Nadia where the precursors turn out to have been actually pretty destructive and by the time the MC finds out about her connection to them its a terrifying revelation

One wonders how those seven were chosen. Was it a situation like with the pilots were only some individuals were suitable to be the carriers, or were they something akin to political leaders?
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:18 am

I don't remember saying anything (not anything recent, anyway) about inter-FAR conflict. Sure you aren't thinking of GiuBiancarelli's posts? (I like getting credit and all, but not for ideas that aren't mine...)

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby GuiBiancarelli » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:23 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:So not only was Second Impact a deliberate Inside job, so was First Impact


Team Lilith surely needs some therapy...

Kendrix wrote:One wonders how those seven were chosen


And that is something we'll probably never know... :sniffle:
But given Lilith's less-than-friendly attitude towards Adam and the whole "don't cross the Fruits" matter, I would say that the hiring process may have been somewhat subpar... :tongue:

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:22 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:To me, this simply creates piles of new and unnecessary questions. Where did that sapient mind come from? If you don't believe the FAR possessed physical limitations, then aren't you effectively saying that they weren't shaped by evolutionary pressures? A humanoid species that is both highly intelligent AND not accountable to the laws of thermodynamics just magically happened? ("A wizard did it"?) Can a "species" even meaningfully exist in a context completely divorced from the evolutionary paradigm?

Not to mention, that a set of beings who aren't accountable to the laws of thermodynamics would even bother with technology at all is logically inconsistent. If you're something like an Angel and can make physical reality change just by thinking about it, why in the world would you bother with technology? Like, suppose our own species all suddenly had both fruits. Do you really think we would keep doing everything the same way, just because "sapience"? Instantly eliminating the need for food, water, breathable air, shelter, medicine, etc., automatically makes the majority of our tech serve no purpose. The link between being physically limited and using technology really cannot be understated here; limitations are in and of themselves the reason why the tech exists. Are you going to keep relying on all of these highly specialized and piecemeal external methods to get stuff done, when any single person can now make effectively anything happen, simply by thinking about it? Are you going to keep taking cars and airplanes and boats when you can shapeshift and use ATF propulsion, or even warp space directly, to go anywhere you want? Like, you want to travel in space? With the Fruit of Life, you don't have to build anything to get you there, or anything to keep you alive in a vacuum; your A.T. Field and perpetual energy generation handles it all. Or, say, you want to fire a concentrated stream of photons at that jerk from work? Just turn yourself into the means of accumulation and propulsion.

This doesn't even get into the whole issue of why a species where any given member is capable of leaving the planet and traveling through space would do something as utterly foolhardy and counterintuitive as place their collective future into the hands of a mere seven individuals and seven giant rock-entombed balls.


There is the very real possibility that their advanced technology is HOW they finally uncoupled themselves from the limitations of thermodynamics; in other words, the original Fruit of Life would have been a product of the Fruit of Knowledge. Especially given that in Genesis JHWH was worried about Adam and Eve discovering the Fruit of Life from having eaten the Fruit of Knowledge.

It's definitely difficult to swallow the idea of a perpetual motion race ever needing advanced technology, but they must have come up with the Fruit of Life somehow if they were able to give it to the Adamim.


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