2K vs 4K or "Is It Really Going To Be That Different?"

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2K vs 4K or "Is It Really Going To Be That Different?"

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Tue May 08, 2018 4:54 pm

Quotes from a different thread so we may continue griping:

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Things that are shot in higher resolutions aren't really meant to be rendered at those higher resolutions either. I'm planning a short film, and I'm preparing to shoot any digitally composited scenes in 4K and then downscaling it to 2K. I took this hint from Steven Spielberg's Close Encounters of a Third Kind, where he would shoot the special effects in 70mm film and then downscale the print to the 35mm film that he used to shoot the rest of the movie. The intended effect was that any matte outlines in the composted footage in 70mm would disappear (or at least have their appearance greatly diminished) after being shrunk down to 35mm film. I must say, it worked fairly well. So I'm gonna try the same thing myself.

And then there's Peter Jackson's LotR trilogy, which was shot in 70mm film but was digitally scanned in 2K for digital color grading and 3D-CGI effects. Even though you can theoretically get much higher digital resolutions from scanning 70mm film, you can only really present the film in the highest resolution in which you scanned the film. As a result, despite being shot in 70mm film, all 4K releases of LotR will be upscales.


Gendo'sPapa wrote:Nothing in The Lord of the Rings trilogy was shot on 70mm. That was a 35mm production through & through. Don’t know where you got that it was shot on 70mm.
Anyway, the short answer is likely - No. It’s not being “shot” in 4K. Unless a large part of the film ends up being live action 4K seems like a financially counter-productive expense for a project that is not captured in a real world environment with real actors.

Though since there’s money to be made I’m sure an upscaled “4K” release will be available when the film hits home video.


View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Holy crap, you're right. I'm gonna have to re-read a few film books I read in college, then. It seems as though all the information has started to melt together in my head.

Any who, I don't know if I would even bother with a 4K upscale. I don't even have a 4K system yet, and on the day I do, I would probably still wanna keep a 1080p system for all of the wonderful 2K/Full HD productions that were made. Heck, I still have a CRT TV in order to watch SD interlace-produced television productions without any de-interlaced filters interfering with the picture. The point is that I prefer to watch movies and TV shows in as close to the original production quality as possible, so upscales of any kind aren't my cup of tea.

And honestly, there isn't a whole lot convincing me to get a 4K system, since I would only want it for the HDR capabilities, and would obviously want to see those colors on an absurdly expensive OLED screen. I mean, I sit 9 feet away from the screen. You cannot notice any higher pixel resolution from that distance. The 4K would simply prevent any downscaling potentially negatively effecting the image. And seeing as how I don't want to pay $3,000+ for that kinda screen, I am more than content with my 1080p LED system.


DarkBluePhoenix wrote:I don't really see a reason for Final to be shot in 4K. From a thematic perspective, sure, higher resolution will show a crisper image, then would it be 30fps or 60fps? There is only so much detail the eye can pick up, and from a cost perspective (I am an accountant after all) it may be far more costly and time consuming to recreate or properly correct all the animation files to be rendered in 4K and simply stick with 2K, which, if we're being honest, isn't a horrible resolution.


AdamMalkovitch wrote:I never got the point of 4K. It's like IMAX for the home, but IMAX is only really impressive on a titanic screen. Comparing 4K and 1080p televisions in Best Buy, I've had to actively walk up to the screen, maybe a foot away from each, to really notice a difference.

Seeing as how FINAL likely started production before Shin Godzilla, I doubt it will be 4K, which I'm overwhelmingly OK with. I just hope Funi doesn't spend half a decade bringing it over.


So, in short, come here to complain about the newest video resolution 4K, and it's eventual successor 8K.

Personally, beyond what was mentioned in the above quotes, I know going from 480, to 720, to 2K there was a noticeable and wonderful difference. Having a 4K HDR TV myself, the only thing I notice is a shaper picture. However, I feel that's the HDR working and necessarily the resolution, because I don't have anything in 4K to watch.
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Re: 2K vs 4K or "Is It Really Going To Be That Different?"

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue May 08, 2018 5:11 pm

The only possible reason I can see for investing in 8K or anything higher would be to improve upon compositing work. Green screen effects tend to work better when you have a higher resolution to pull from, and the difference would be noticeable to people even if the film isn’t distributed in 8K. Honestly, over cranking the resolution for composite work like that is always a good idea if it’s available to you. Releasing in SD? Shoot composite work in 2K. Releasing in Full HD? Shoot your composite work in 4K. Releasing in Ultra HD? Shoot your composite work in 5-8K.

The only distribution for 8K that would be beneficial to the viewer would be in IMAX theaters. (Maybe.) Outside of that, I don’t see any practical reason to release in anything higher than 4K.
Last edited by FreakyFilmFan4ever on Tue May 08, 2018 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2K vs 4K or "Is It Really Going To Be That Different?"

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Postby Reichu » Tue May 08, 2018 5:45 pm

Humans not being able to perceive these more advanced resolutions won't be a hindrance. TV manufacturers will just team up with cybernetics companies. You won't believe the level of detail you can see in our flat screens... after you upgrade your eyeballs to the latest model, that is. Soon enough TV will be expected to convey information about its captured environments that exist only on the microscopic level. First you could see their pores... now you can see each individual skin cell! (Next generation, you'll be able to look inside and make out the remnants of the organelles, too!) The commercial Photoshoppers of the future will have to fastidiously go over the skin of models and actors and make it flawless by removing any revolting parasites and germs. What a bold future we have to look forward to!

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Re: 2K vs 4K or "Is It Really Going To Be That Different?"

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Postby pwhodges » Wed May 09, 2018 5:28 am

Standards set according to conventional limits on what can be perceived can be found inadequate when it is discovered that the simple measurements used don't capture all the possibilities of human perception.

This has clearly happened in audio. I don't suppose that anyone who praised the "perfect reproduction" of 78rpm disks really thought they were perfect; but by the 1950s people were doing demonstrations using performers and loudspeakers behind a curtain, and swapping between them. The 44.1kHz/16-bit standard espoused in the CD is a fine example of something which satisfied the academically approved possibilities at the time. I would argue that in fact, if the recording chain is immaculate (and many people still don't realise how strict that requirement is), then it is truly good enough for 95% of the population (though even academics will now acknowledge that the earlier measurements are not a complete characterisation of how our hearing reacts to sound). But it is a whole lot easier to produce a perfect 44/16 deliverable if the recording and editing has been done at 96/24. There's no harm in delivering at that resolution as well (though 192 or 384 kHz, or 32 bits, are absurd for delivery), though I'd claim that less than 5% of people could tell the difference even on a good enough system. I imagine it's much the same in video.

The numbers game is played a bit differently in video, though. If you want a bigger screen and more envelopment, then you need more pixels and bandwidth to get the same quality delivered to the eye, and hence the requirement for bigger numbers. In audio, though, the use of more channels to improve fidelity (I won't divert into what constitutes good use of those channels) is remarked on separately, so the fidelity is measured in numbers that refer to each channel, and don't need to change.
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Re: 2K vs 4K or "Is It Really Going To Be That Different?"

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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Wed May 09, 2018 10:23 am

:facepalm: 4 K I s s t u p i d , p o i n t l e s s , a n d a w a s t e o f m o n e y :facepalm:

welp, now I've said everything I need to say about this, I'll probably not revisit this thread. Chus!
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Re: 2K vs 4K or "Is It Really Going To Be That Different?"

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Postby Ambiant23 » Wed May 09, 2018 10:57 am

I have a 4k tv... It was on a really good sale at costco. But honestly I can't tell what difference the resolution difference is. Oh Well, it is quite colorful though I will give it that

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Re: 2K vs 4K or "Is It Really Going To Be That Different?"

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Postby Joseki » Wed May 09, 2018 5:00 pm

My eyes would prefer more colours than more pixels, and most of all better bit rates in general. Ditering is the worst thing ever.
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Re: 2K vs 4K or "Is It Really Going To Be That Different?"

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Wed May 09, 2018 7:40 pm

View Original PostAdamMalkovitch wrote: :facepalm: 4 K I s s t u p i d , p o i n t l e s s , a n d a w a s t e o f m o n e y :facepalm:

And even in 4K that would take a moment to read properly.

Joseki wrote:My eyes would prefer more colours than more pixels, and most of all better bit rates in general. Ditering is the worst thing ever.

The HDR they're putting in TVs seem to begin to deal with this issue. Some of the older shows or movies I'm watching the color range is so different than what i remember. It almost looks as though you're literally standing there, black and white movies all have a marked improvement, with much sharper images.
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Re: 2K vs 4K or "Is It Really Going To Be That Different?"

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon May 14, 2018 1:02 pm

Forget the pixel numbers game and skip right to the pixel type and color numbers game. HDR is pretty sweet, and the OLED pixel technology looks sexy. I’d settle for a 1080p OLED screen with HDR.

The only problem is that only 4K Blurays are really capable of holding HDR content, and I want my TV to match and calibrate as closely as possible to its surrounding components. So now we’re back at the 4K screen game again.

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Re: 2K vs 4K or "Is It Really Going To Be That Different?"

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Mon May 14, 2018 1:22 pm

^ I believe that's called forced obsolescence.
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Re: 2K vs 4K or "Is It Really Going To Be That Different?"

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon May 14, 2018 4:02 pm

^ Well, yes and no. They still make regular BDs, so nothing’s obsolete. Honestly, the sexiest part of the whole set up is the true blacks from OLED pixel technology. I can probably get that in a Full HD sans the HDR. The HDR would only be the optional cherry on top for me, and the 4K would only be for technical consistency. If I just go with true blacks, I can skip the other two steps entirely and not even bother with either 4K or HDR.

Seriously, you’ll get more bang for your buck with OLED than you will any of the other stuff. Find a 1080p OLED and be happy with your current Blu-Rei collection.

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Re: 2K vs 4K or "Is It Really Going To Be That Different?"

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Mon May 14, 2018 9:03 pm

^ Technically, its just a DVD collection. Never saw the need to get a Blu-Ray player right off the bat, or replace all the DVDs I'd bought since the medium became mainstream, so the only Blu-Ray discs in the house are my PS3 games and a copy of Young Frankenstein that I got a few months ago with a super cheap Sony Blu-Ray player (well $40 isn't too bad considering they used to be wayyyy more expensive). It's best to just let new technology come out and have the bugs fixed before jumping and buying something that could still be improved and become cheaper with age, IMO anyway.

Still, I do notice the differences with the true blacks on the HDR screen (as mentioned above), so even old movies look great, and those were clearly not shot in 4K or even 2K, so I hope they improve the displaying technology itself rather than shoving more and more pixels in. Though as others have mentioned, shooting in a higher resolution and downsizing it makes the most sense, though with how technology explodes, I expect this conversation to be much different in the next five years when we're discussing how 8K being implemented is ridiculous and 16K is forthcoming.
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Re: 2K vs 4K or "Is It Really Going To Be That Different?"

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue May 15, 2018 2:35 pm

The resolution wars will most likely leave TV screens behind all together. IMAX screens will get the more absurd resolutions, followed by virtual reality rooms and giant digital wall displays.


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