Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Wed May 09, 2018 10:10 am

One of the reasons End of Eva has a reputation for being a mind screw is the sheer amount of stuff that takes place without the mechanics behind it being made clear for the audience, and a lot of that centres around Lilith. Perhaps the most bizarre of these is the way the MP Evas begin to morph into malformed duplicates of Lilith as Third Impact begins in earnest. All the insight we actually get into it is Aoba's report of the AT Fields resonating, and Fuyutsuki's bizarre proclamation that they're "merging with Lilith".

From an immediate standpoint, I'm really not sure why this is going on. The MP Evas are presumably derived from Adam, and we know them to possess their own S2 Engines, but neither really ties into becoming duplicates of Lilith. Sure she's taken Adam into herself as well so I guess she can exert influence over them through Adam... But Unit-01 is directly derived from Lilith, and yet doesn't seem to undergo a similar metamorphosis. One possibility is that Lilith's AT Field is somehow overwriting those of the MP Evas, which would coincide with the resonance...but again, the Tree of Sephiroth thing created the impression they had done something similar with Unit-01, and again no similar transformation took place.

It's kinda puzzling for me, and any insight into the matter would help immensely.

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Re: Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Wed May 09, 2018 10:39 am

I feel like I have a reputation for getting things kinda wrong and kinda right on here, but I might be able to sorta answer a few of your questions.

It never really made a ton of sense to me either, until I remembered that the Eva Series was designed, tested, and had their construction directly overseen by SEELE, they were created specifically to aid bringing about Third Impact, with combat capabilities just there because, I mean, they're soulless gigantic armoured humanoids, you really expect them not to fight? The S^2 engines were put in likely in secret so that even if they were able to be held off from NERV HQ, NERV's forces would have no idea that they needed to destroy the core, which is exactly what happened with Asuka and Unit 02 (rip). Once Unit 01 Awakened, they grabbed it's wings and lifted it to the edge of the atmosphere to meet with Lilith/Adam's Rei form, where she would give control over Third Impact to Shinji. The Eva Series' fusion with Lilith/Adam was probably just a way to speed up the Instrumentality process, have more 'souls' (I guess Dummy Plugs with the mind of Adam can mimic souls?) accept Instrumentality at it's start, and spread the tangification across the planet super quick after the immediate area below them.

Just like pretty much everything in Neon Genesis (aside from Shinji's ultimate decision), this was likely all planned out by SEELE.
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Re: Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Wed May 09, 2018 11:04 am

...how can they not have souls though? Ritsuko made pretty clear they need souls to actually function. Also given the whole "soul helps shape the body" deal not having souls should prevent them from changing shape like that. Of projecting AT Fields at all.

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Re: Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Postby Reichu » Wed May 09, 2018 11:39 am

Yeah, the MP Evas generate ATFs, therefore have souls.

----

I could never figure out a real in-universe justification for this happening either. The "real" answer is probably a boring Doylist one -- it happens because (presumably) Anno liked the visual. Repulsive effigies of Rei require no further justification. :tongue:

Beyond that, I just have stray thoughts.

One possibility is that Lilith's AT Field is somehow overwriting those of the MP Evas, which would coincide with the resonance...but again, the Tree of Sephiroth thing created the impression they had done something similar with Unit-01, and again no similar transformation took place.

I think the first part is essentially correct. They're becoming extensions of Lilith by virtue of getting engulfed in her A.T. Field, so powerfully that they change physically.

The SToL part earlier doesn't actually mention Eva-01, just the S2 activity of the MP Evas. For whatever reason, I'd always assumed that the AATF mentioned was created jointly by all ten Evas -- instead of single aura like we get with GNR later, we get one (a Sephirah) for each Eva. But... *shrug*. I wouldn't expect whatever's going on here to have physically altered Eva-01 for the simple reason that the MP Evas don't have a centralized ego. They're nine different souls controlled by the same A.I., but that's not the same thing.

What Lilith does the MP Evas could actually be thought of an Eva-only preview of HIP, in a way. EoE never tells you exactly what an AATF is, but you can reason it out from information earlier in the show. What's the only thing, aside from the Spear of Longinus, that can bring down an ATF? Another ATF. The Classified Information is a bit more explicit about this:

Classified Information wrote:A.T. Field:

(D) The very limits to which an A.T. Field can expand is an ego unbound: a god. In its presence, people's egos collapse and they revert to LCL.

They don't say AATF by name here, but we know what they're talking about. The general idea is that the ego generating the AATF is so overwhelming that yours cannot help but be swallowed into it. It's slightly more extreme than an Angel having its barrier forcibly brought down in battle -- instead of the two egos canceling each other out, one basically devours the other. The "over 400%!" sync fiasco could be considered a sneak preview of this general phenomenon.

I thought I had more, but I need to get my thoughts organized some.

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Re: Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Wed May 09, 2018 1:28 pm

Ah, so Unit-01 is self-actualised enough to retain its own form, but the ME Evas are not, and so they're easily swallowed by Lilith's Ego Boundary. That does make sense, though now I'm just confused as to how that was intended to play into their interaction with Unit-01.

It's a bit frustrating because, by virtue of having 3 scenarios stacked over top of each other (Gendo's, SEELE's and Rei's/Yui's) it's hard to figure out what was supposed to happen under each one. Did SEELE somehow expect Shinji and/or Unit-01 to generate an AATF that strong? It's clear they designed the MP Evas to work with Unit-01 after losing the Spear but it's not shown to be anywhere near as powerful as the Adam-infused Lilith.

On a side note, I'm still not sure why the Spear turned Unit-01 into a Tree of Life, or why Lilith absorbed it. Like I said, the 3I portion of the film at times feels like stuff just happening for no adequately explained reason.

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Re: Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Postby Reichu » Wed May 09, 2018 2:53 pm

ACGT-Samael wrote:That does make sense, though now I'm just confused as to how that was intended to play into their interaction with Unit-01.

You mean, how does Eva-01 not easily overwhelm them? Yui seems to want Instrumentality to happen, so perhaps to an extent she is subjugating herself.

Did SEELE somehow expect Shinji and/or Unit-01 to generate an AATF that strong? It's clear they designed the MP Evas to work with Unit-01 after losing the Spear but it's not shown to be anywhere near as powerful as the Adam-infused Lilith.

"Work with" is probably the key here. Similar to how the three Evas combined their ATFs to repel Sahaquiel, the ten Evas can probably combine the output of their ATFs to create one massive AATF. Seele seems to know that copies aren't as potent as the originals, hence why there are so many S2-powered Evas with replica Spears to fill in for the power of Adam and the original Spear.

Regarding the Tree of Life, as far as I can recall there isn't a Cliff's Notes version of this because no consensus was ever really reached. Just one of those things that doesn't get talked about much, for who-know-what reason. There is some convoluted brainstorming in this thread, which posits something to the effect that the Spear of Longinus is more than an ATF-killer, it's an agent of metaphysical change and manipulation, and it plays some kind of role in transforming the collected souls of humanity back into an integrated whole. Also, something-something-Adam Kadmon.

Bagheera proposed something along the lines that the Tree of Life is basically an embryonic form of a Seed of Life -- might be in this thread? I'll give it props for creativity, but I think it relies too much on assuming a relationship between 命の胎芽 (inochi no taiga - embryo of life/lives) and 生命の種 (seimei no tane - Seed of Life) when they don't even use the same word for "life", the term "Seed of Life" appears nowhere in EoE and "embryo of life" appears nowhere in Eva2, and seemingly no attempt was made to dive into Kabbalistic literature to see what Anno might actually have been attempting to reference in the first place.

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Re: Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Postby Lavinius » Thu May 31, 2018 6:23 am

For me this moment has never been troublesome; it's Seele assuming control over Lilith-Adam, to ensure that she'll cooperate with their plan.

The way it's framed makes this pretty blatant- when Lilith-Adam first arises and begins to cradle Shogouki, she snaps fully awake for an instant, with cute, kind eyes. Immediately, Seele proclaim again their intentions, and the Harpies, with devilish wings and laughing wickedly (yes, really), position themselves behind Lilith-Adam as her wings, and unify with her, Rei's once-lovely face being shown decayed and wounded like theirs. For the ensuing period, neither Rei nor Kaworu is capable of articulate communication, only emotional urges, being under Seele's lordship, and act according Seele's plan- it's only after the Harpies have orgasmuicided that Rei and Kaworu reigain their autonomy. Yui, on the other hand, doesn't communicate at all, neither with Shinji nor with Rei or Kaworu, until after Instrumentality's end. Doubtless this is the crux of the whole matter: she's walling herself off to hide her deviant intentions from Seele, who fatally assume that she's still compliant to their doctrine of Instrumentality.

That the Harpies are able to do this and overpower Lilith-Adam would suggest to me that she doesn't actually have both Fruits (because & therefore Adam's embryonic flesh lacked either), though that's not necessarily the only explanation.

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Re: Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Postby Reichu » Thu May 31, 2018 9:03 am

Lavinius: I don't think this explanation quite works given, at minimum:

(A) the placement of the "This Rei is your heart" / "What do you desire?" moment (dialogue from Kaworu, Yui, and Rei).
(B) Rei's many manifestations monologuing together at the start of Third Impact.
(C) Yui, Kaworu, and Rei visiting Gendo.

All of these occur after the "fusion" with the MP Evas but before the MP Evas kill themselves.

The manic laughing is a Rei trademark, so the harpies suddenly doing this says less about them than it does about Rei. Other times it shows up:

- Armisael after merging with Rei
- The tank of Rei clones (as they die)
- While melting people at 3I (e.g. Hyuga, Kiel)
- Inside the Chamber of Guf (cf. giant group of Rei swimming past the Tree of Life)

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Re: Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Thu May 31, 2018 12:51 pm

View Original PostLavinius wrote: [...] Rei's once-lovely face being shown decayed and wounded like theirs.


If you're talking about the shot of what appears to be a damaged Lilith face with an eyeball peering out of a brain, I'm fairly certain that's the MP Unit whose upper jaw/cranium Asuka smashed, reformed in a grotesque way due to the nature of the damage.

That the Harpies are able to do this and overpower Lilith-Adam would suggest to me that she doesn't actually have both Fruits (because & therefore Adam's embryonic flesh lacked either), though that's not necessarily the only explanation.


I maybe reading this wrong but the way you've phrased this implies you're both using Adam's current lack of the Fruit of Life as an explanation for this theory AND using this interpretation to reason out said lack of the Fruit of Life, which is not at all logically sound.

Either way though, Kaworu's presence pretty much confirmed Adam's body and soul were reunited, and the CI suggests the Fruits are tied to the Seeds' souls, so she probably still had it to give to Lilith. Especially since that's implicitly how Rei stabilizes herself and regrows her arm.

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Re: Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Postby Lavinius » Thu May 31, 2018 1:09 pm

Reichu: I am ashamed to admit that I forgot about both of Yui's appearances, and neither is particularly excusable to forget.

That said, I stand by my main thesis, though I phrased it wrongly. I said, strongly, "assuming control", since that's what it is functionally for Seele's purposes, but in nature it itself is "exerting influence". It's a soft influence, not a hard one.

For the facts stand, that
1) Seele are clearly doing something by merging the Harpies with Lilith-Adam (something which, considering the Harpies' power & prominence, isn't necessarily just one-way).
And, crucially,
2) They clearly expect that their scenario is being followed to the end, an expectation which requires that they're not just passively letting Lilith-Adam do whatever.
And, indeed,
3) Lilith-Adam does follow Seele's scenario until after Instrumentality's apex (and so until after the death of the Harpies, which obviously had something to do with her), and that afterwards Rei (& Kaworu with her)... wakes up, or becomes more open-minded, or starts off on a rather different train of thought. I'm not sure how best to put it, but there's definitely a change.

(B) Rei's many manifestations monologuing together at the start of Third Impact.

"The world is overflowing with sadness, people are drowning in emptiness, loneliness fills the souls and hearts of people."
Yes, this is true, and it's also something Seele wants to emphasize. Seele's influence isn't holding Rei to falsehoods, just propelling her (somewhat like Shinji) towards despair and destrudo. It's incomplete, perhaps dreamlike or unsober, but it's not inauthentic, the emotional/mythological logic of the story needs it to be authentic. If that makes any sense.

(Though I can't give here a satisfactory analysis of Yui's role, it must be admitted that neither her brief words to Shinji nor her assistance with Gendou's destruction are contrary to Seele's scenario.)

(As for the laughter, the laughter I meant to refer to was the one the Harpies make in their own voice as they're moving into position to make the infinity-sigil to harmonize with Rei, not Rei-laughter.)

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Thu May 31, 2018 1:22 pm

I don't doubt SEELE intended to guide the process in some way, but I do wonder if you've maybe got the causality backwards.

Episode 19 and Air establish that extremely high Synchro rates result in stronger Evas, especially with AT-Fields. Meanwhile, 18 shows us the Dummy System can't produce very high Synchro rates, and of course it can't. It's just creating replica brainwaves to drive it like an AI, but without a pilot soul they end up individually weak. That's why Asuka could tear them apart so easily 1-on-1, and the only thing that stopped her was a Divine control rod.

These weak Synchro rates and AT-Fields probably resulted in their having ego barriers too weak to maintain their own identity. They may be voluntarily resonating with Lilith, but her AT-Field is probably overwhelming them, as Reichu pointed out earlier.

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Re: Lilith and the MP Evas' "Fusion"

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:41 pm

View Original PostLavinius wrote:For me this moment has never been troublesome; it's Seele assuming control over Lilith-Adam, to ensure that she'll cooperate with their plan.

Eh, I don't think SEELE wound up planning to carry out Third Impact and HIP utilizing Lilith or the Lance of Longinus. They themselves exclaim in pleasant surprise that the Lance of Longinus returned from Lunar orbit. My guess is that they had originally intended to initiate 3I and HIP using Unit-01, Lilith, and the Lance of Longinus before Gendo wound up foiling things for them by having Rei use it to destroy Arael. IIRC, this is what prompted them to secretly ramp up production of the MP Units, because they were forced to go with Plan B and utilize the Evas to initiate an Impact.

That said, even though SEELE's ultimate goal was for humanity to be reborn as a single being where the whole of humanity being combined into one allows for all individuals to complement each other and make up for each other's flaws, the process it takes to get there involves the indiscriminate death of all human beings--the species' utter extinction. Since everybody loses their individuality in the process, death of the self for all people has to occur either way, even if with HIP being fully realized, the whole of humanity is "reborn" afterward. They make this clear both by their mentioning of that indiscriminate death being required to purify humanity during the Red Earth Purification Ceremony, but by them telling Gendo that they do not intend to use Unit-01 as a personal Ark to avoid dying/having their egos' dissolved during 3I.

This leads me to believe that without the true Lance of Longnius at their disposal, they were going to use the MP Evas to initiate 3I and cause humanity's extinction minus HIP (now impossible) since it's more or less something that was involved as a part of their ultimate goal anyway. When the Lance returned, they rejoiced because its fusion with Unit-01 into the Tree of Life, the source of all human souls, meant that HIP was once again possible to achieve. Fuyutsuki's dialog regarding the ToL states as much (about it being the source of all souls) and tells us that Unit-01's fusion with the LoL results in it becoming God.

I think GNR appearing was also something they hadn't planned for, but ultimately her appearance didn't (in their opinion) hinder their goal of initiating HIP. GNR herself started the process. I think what wound up happening, basically, is that 3I altogether just went totally nothing like either Gendo or SEELE had planned for at the start of the invasion, and not only did Unit-01 wind up becoming a God and the Tree of Life, but Adam and Lilith's forbidden fusion took place and GNR joined the party too. Essentially the LoL showing up was a surprise but in SEELE's favor, and GNR was going to be part of Gendo's plan but he was supposed to be fused with Lilith and Adam as well (either giving him the power to reunite with Yui spiritually or through Instrumentality, or making both he and Yui immortal Gods based on Lilith). In other words, it wound up being a kind of 3-way clusterfuck whereby basically everything that really possibly could have happened there did.


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