NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Rei IV » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:10 pm

It's still pretty hard for me to get around the fact the FAR aren't suppose to look like Lilith's marshmallow/doughy form. Anytime I think of them, the first image comes to my mind are giant, faceless white blobs (Lilith). It actually be nice to have a OVA series dedicated to the FAR and conception of the Evas, as well as 2nd Impact/Katsuragi expedition. But I doubt that will ever happen.

Why does the whole debacle between Lilith and Adam sound like that of that of squabbling siblings, with one of them being greedy and not sharing?

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Fri May 04, 2018 1:48 pm

So, if I've understood correctly, the solution the Third Seed proposes to Adam and Lilith being unable to coexist is "why don't you just go set up shop on another planet". That's... actually a pretty reasonable idea that I'm surprised was never presented as an option before.

Also, the whole Seed of Life business kind of reminds me of Panspermia, the idea that life on Earth evolved from microbes transported by space debris from another planet. Though as presented here Lilith took a really roundabout path to creating more humanity since she went through about 3.996 billion years of non-humanity to get there. Lilith's bad at her job lol.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sun May 06, 2018 9:25 am

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:So, if I've understood correctly, the solution the Third Seed proposes to Adam and Lilith being unable to coexist is "why don't you just go set up shop on another planet". That's... actually a pretty reasonable idea that I'm surprised was never presented as an option before.

To be fair I don't think there was much of a window for that to happen. Adam got put into stasis when Lilith showed up, then it and the White Moon exploded right after waking up. The Spear spent 15 years lost in the sea, a couple months in Nerv's basement, then got chucked to the moon before Kaworu showed up, so he couldn't use it like he did in that ending. It was really convenient that Seed X was passing by when it did. :P

The Angels probably could have set up shop on Mars and lived in whatever passes as happiness for them.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Sun May 06, 2018 12:10 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:To be fair I don't think there was much of a window for that to happen. Adam got put into stasis when Lilith showed up, then it and the White Moon exploded right after waking up. The Spear spent 15 years lost in the sea, a couple months in Nerv's basement, then got chucked to the moon before Kaworu showed up, so he couldn't use it like he did in that ending. It was really convenient that Seed X was passing by when it did. :P

The Angels probably could have set up shop on Mars and lived in whatever passes as happiness for them.


That's a fair argument. Plus I don't know if it would have worked with the story Anno wanted to tell.

Still comes off as a more reasonable compromise though.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sun May 06, 2018 12:46 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The Rei clones, unfinished Evas, dead Angels, Adam embryo, etc., have no trouble keeping it together without a soul.

It's also probably a misconception that regular Lilin, along with other Lilith-derived life, can't exist physically without souls inside them. For Shinji's salvage in episode 20, Ritsuko says that they will recreate his body and then fix his soul in it. Obviously this would be impossible if the body needs the soul inside it to stick together. I think it's less "the body needs the ATF" and more "the body is affected by the ATF".

Perhaps the body itself projects a weak A.T. Field, just enough to hold the physical form together, which allows the soul's A.T. Field to latch onto it and bind the two together, which would allow the transferring of souls that presumably happens with the likes of Rei, where her soul is transferred from one body to another, and would also explain how the Dummy Plugs can project and effect A.T. Field without having souls themselves.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Sun May 06, 2018 1:06 pm

I think Reichu has the right answer by pointing out we only see Lilin reduced to LCL when an Anti-AT Field is involved. My guess is that it's the AATF causing the AT-Field to suddenly and violently collapse that's responsible for the phenomenon. Kind of like how glass can bear a lot of pressure if it's applied slowly and evenly, but a sudden sharp strike makes it violently shatter.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Reichu » Sun May 06, 2018 10:04 pm

I've wondered about the exact logic of putting Adam into stasis instead of something that would have actually made sense, like, well, giving one of the Seeds a chance to get off the planet. What's the point of wasting one of a mere seven Seeds for billions upon billions of years? What's the end game? Adam didn't get killed, so... was she supposed to be freed eventually? When? Why put her to sleep at all if there's a no-waste policy in play? The Spears come across as some the faultiest possible "safety devices" one could ever devise, basically standing by and doing nothing while the groundwork for calamity is allowed to be placed, and the one of the only times they actually do anything, it would have made far more sense to hover threateningly a la EoE and force one of the Seeds to leave Earth.

Also, I dunno how I missed this post, but I'm gonna respond to it now even though everyone has probably heard this shit already.

View Original PostRei IV wrote:It's still pretty hard for me to get around the fact the FAR aren't suppose to look like Lilith's marshmallow/doughy form.

I mean... we technically don't have any solid information about what they look like, so ultimately all one can do is make deductions. I do think them looking like Lilith is quite unlikely, though: a clone of Lilith looks indistinguishable from a clone of Adam, which implies that Lilith looked similar to Adam at one point, but underwent some ATF-based changes. The Angels demonstrate that one's physical shape can be wildly manipulated through psychokinetic means without altering the genomic structure. It makes sense that if you just copy the body that soul-based changes don't carry over.

So if Adam and Lilith intrinsically look Eva-like, where do they get that look from? The Evas have many features that make perfect sense in a naturally evolved species, but not so much sense in something engineered to transcend mortal limitations. Evas even have what look like vestigial structures -- things that aren't necessarily WITHOUT function now, but represent structures that were probably more developed at some point, evolutionarily speaking. Again, makes no sense in something engineered. Unless, well, the engineers were using something created by nature as a template. "Humanity creates God in its own image" is a vintage sci-fi trope that NGE plays with, so reasonably, the Seeds were based on the FAR themselves, and the Evas provide a second-hand glimpse of what the progenitors looked like.

I think a race of Eva people is fucking awesome so I will carry this head canon to my grave.

It actually be nice to have a OVA series dedicated to the FAR and conception of the Evas, as well as 2nd Impact/Katsuragi expedition. But I doubt that will ever happen.

For entirely selfish reasons, I hope it doesn't. :devil:

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Sun May 06, 2018 11:05 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I've wondered about the exact logic of putting Adam into stasis instead of something that would have actually made sense, like, well, giving one of the Seeds a chance to get off the planet. What's the point of wasting one of a mere seven Seeds for billions upon billions of years? What's the end game? Adam didn't get killed, so... was she supposed to be freed eventually? When? Why put her to sleep at all if there's a no-waste policy in play? The Spears come across as some the faultiest possible "safety devices" one could ever devise, basically standing by and doing nothing while the groundwork for calamity is allowed to be placed, and the one of the only times they actually do anything, it would have made far more sense to hover threateningly a la EoE and force one of the Seeds to leave Earth.


Given the apparent rule that two seeds cannot go to the same world, it seems like they didn't have a real plan for what would happen if two wound up the same place. Which is really stupid, since as you point out they have very scant resources they should want to use carefully. Also they're apparently of poor enough structural integrity to be destructible in a crash landing, when they're supposed to stop beings of cosmic power. The FAR were terrible engineers.

View Original PostReichu wrote:I mean... we technically don't have any solid information about what they look like, so ultimately all one can do is make deductions. I do think them looking like Lilith is quite unlikely, though: a clone of Lilith looks indistinguishable from a clone of Adam, which implies that Lilith looked similar to Adam at one point, but underwent some ATF-based changes. The Angels demonstrate that one's physical shape can be wildly manipulated through psychokinetic means without altering the genomic structure. It makes sense that if you just copy the body that soul-based changes don't carry over.

So if Adam and Lilith intrinsically look Eva-like, where do they get that look from? The Evas have many features that make perfect sense in a naturally evolved species, but not so much sense in something engineered to transcend mortal limitations. Evas even have what look like vestigial structures -- things that aren't necessarily WITHOUT function now, but represent structures that were probably more developed at some point, evolutionarily speaking. Again, makes no sense in something engineered. Unless, well, the engineers were using something created by nature as a template. "Humanity creates God in its own image" is a vintage sci-fi trope that NGE plays with, so reasonably, the Seeds were based on the FAR themselves, and the Evas provide a second-hand glimpse of what the progenitors looked like.

I think a race of Eva people is fucking awesome so I will carry this head canon to my grave.


The part that I really take notice of is that despite all being clones of Adam, Units 00, 02 and 03 are all quite different when it comes to cranial structure. Unless Anno really didn't know what a clone was, this suggests to me there's genetic material encoded within Adam, and possibly Lilith, not used by the beings themselves, which is indeed in line with real biological species. Given that, I'm inclined to believe the Seeds were indeed derived from the FAR's own genetic code, though it can also mean Unit-01 also doesn't look exactly like Lilith did.

It would help immensely if we ever saw photos of Adam when she wasn't a walking nightlight and Lilith a Ghostbusters villain. Part of me has always headcanoned that Adam has the same occified mask for a face as Angels like since only the two eyes are visible when she's going critical, though that would definitely be at odds with the Evas having mouths. (Then again, when Unit-01 is first seen with its face exposed in Episode 2 it almost looks like it doesn't have a mouth, so...)

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Tue May 08, 2018 12:40 am

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:Given the apparent rule that two seeds cannot go to the same world, it seems like they didn't have a real plan for what would happen if two wound up the same place. Which is really stupid, since as you point out they have very scant resources they should want to use carefully. Also they're apparently of poor enough structural integrity to be destructible in a crash landing, when they're supposed to stop beings of cosmic power. The FAR were terrible engineers.

Well, like all advanced beings, sometimes the simple things slip their minds because their thinking has grown beyond that. Think SG:SG1 where the Asgard couldn't defeat the replicators, where all it took was a gun. Too simple a solution is overlooked when a race advances its technology to the point where other cultures could consider it magic. That or they thought their system was so perfect, they got cocky and decided to skip the emergency planning meeting about two Seeds landing on the same planet, because having two Seeds potentially kill each other in a turf war seems like a giant waste.

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:The part that I really take notice of is that despite all being clones of Adam, Units 00, 02 and 03 are all quite different when it comes to cranial structure. Unless Anno really didn't know what a clone was, this suggests to me there's genetic material encoded within Adam, and possibly Lilith, not used by the beings themselves, which is indeed in line with real biological species. Given that, I'm inclined to believe the Seeds were indeed derived from the FAR's own genetic code, though it can also mean Unit-01 also doesn't look exactly like Lilith did.

It would help immensely if we ever saw photos of Adam when she wasn't a walking nightlight and Lilith a Ghostbusters villain. Part of me has always headcanoned that Adam has the same occified mask for a face as Angels like since only the two eyes are visible when she's going critical, though that would definitely be at odds with the Evas having mouths. (Then again, when Unit-01 is first seen with its face exposed in Episode 2 it almost looks like it doesn't have a mouth, so...)

Well, this would fall in line with Adam's other offspring being vastly different in appearance and purpose, even ranging in attack and defense power greatly. Matarael was the only Angel killed by the pallet gun, and the rest were summarily immune to it and other firearms. And the strongest Angels (Ramiel, Zeruel, Arael, and Armisael) required extraordinary feats to destroy. Each Evangelion is unique because it is most likely an imperfect clone, or even a Adam and Lilith hybrid. That I know is not stated anywhere, but considering the Evangelions have a standard humanoid shape unlike their Angelic cousins, there could be a different reason where genetics, and possibly even eugenics is involved.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Tue May 08, 2018 1:36 pm

Thing is, none of the Angels are referred to as clones of Adam, while the Evas are. A clone has a specific definition, and that is a perfect genetic copy of an existing organism. There are, as best I can tell, 3 ways to reconcile this other than "Adam and Lilith had tons of unused genetic material that manifested in the Evas".

1) Clone is a mistranslation that has somehow never been corrected, or otherwise a failure by the production team to understand what a clone is, neither of which seems very likely.
2) They are, as you suggested, imperfect clones, though this feels like something that would be mentioned.
3) AT Field shenanigans, though I can't see why Kyoko's maternal side would want 4 eyes.

It's not like a progenitor race with a more expensive genome is a new concept in Sci-fi. Hell, Anno used the idea in Shin Godzilla.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Tue May 08, 2018 2:34 pm

^ That's why I used the word "offspring" while the EVAs are considered clones, they could be considered children with the genetic shift that occurred with their appearance, rather than being exact copies as the word "clone" suggests.

As it is explained in the show, Angels, EVAs, and humans have a 99.89% similarity to each other genetically speaking. Now, considering that Rei was cloned 100+ times to have spare bodies and be used as Dummy Plug components, we know they can make a clone with little difficulty. With the genomes being so similar we can assume that it would be just as easy to make "duplicates" (perhaps the word that it should have been translated to) of Adam/Lilith with perfect accuracy. So, either the samples of Adam/Lilith they were using were corrupted in some way requiring some genetic modification, or the clones were made different on purpose, as some kind of unique mark of the scientists involved, or as some sort of specialization not gone over in the show. Considering Unit-03 and Unit-04 are identical in appearance, as are the MPEs, I would see third option I mentioned holding the most water.

As for Unit-00 and the multitude of a aborted EVAs in the graveyard, we can call those early failures before the process was perfected.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby Neepa » Wed May 23, 2018 6:20 am

A tidbit oft information: the DNA oft a human is roughly 2 meters long. 99% oft that is rubbish with no value in terms oft information to make stuff. It only exists because it can copy itself very well.

Info out of :" A short story about everything" a book from 2003

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby pwhodges » Wed May 23, 2018 7:03 am

We have no idea how little value the parts we don't understand may have; they may simply do things in ways we haven't yet twigged.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Sat May 26, 2018 1:01 pm

View Original PostNeepa wrote:A tidbit oft information: the DNA oft a human is roughly 2 meters long. 99% oft that is rubbish with no value in terms oft information to make stuff. It only exists because it can copy itself very well.

Info out of :" A short story about everything" a book from 2003


If the source for that is back in 2003 then I guarantee you it's no longer accurate. There's been a lot of advancements in those 15 years.

That said, the human genome does contain tons of information that doesn't get used in a given person. That's how you can get children whose features differ from their biological parents but resemble a family member more generations up. (Case in point, my parents had red and black hair respectively but my sister is blond like our maternal grandmother.)

There's clearly elements of that with Lilith, who is ostensibly a human but is also the source of genetic information for all terrestrial life, from bacteria to fungus to mammals. Some of that can be chalked up to the evolutionary process being mental, but there has to be some genetic basis for all this if Lilith is truly the source life for Earth.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby VUX » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:46 pm

I think the reason Evangelions look nothing like their Angel brethren is because Nerv purposely made them that way, to make them less alien in appearance.
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:56 pm

View Original PostVUX wrote:I think the reason Evangelions look nothing like their Angel brethren is because Nerv purposely made them that way, to make them less alien in appearance.


It's possible, but I have the AT-FIELD idea is the one most likely to be correct. Since the AT-FIELD responds to our perception of self, it's possible that the Angels (possessing the Fruit of Life but not the Fruit of Knowledge) don't know what a human is "supposed to" look like, so their AT-FIELD reshapes then into their abstract notion of what they are. Adam and Lilith probably look like what the FAR did because they were specifically made that way, and as clones of them with Lilin souls they maintain that humanoid shape.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby VUX » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:37 pm

So you’re saying that the angels don’t remember what their “ancestors” look like?
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:40 pm

View Original PostVUX wrote:So you’re saying that the angels don’t remember what their “ancestors” look like?


More or less. Think of it like that tale of the blind men who each touch part of an elephant and claim to know its entire shape. The Angels don't have a concrete idea of what the FAR looked like, only vague notions, and no way for reason it out; as a result, they transform themselves based on their interpretations of abstract ideas.

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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby VUX » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:31 pm

Are humans and angels sort of each other’s opposites, since angels are immortal and can change their appearance, while humans are incapable of such things but can change the world around them, aka developing technology
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Re: NGE2: First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life

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Postby imprimatur13 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:56 am

Yes. One has the Fruit of Life, the other has the Fruit of Knowledge, which parallel each other. When a single organism has both Fruits, it becomes perfect in an androgynous-like way, embodying both polarities. Dualism is cool.
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