Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Fri May 04, 2018 2:26 pm

^There are also the four Evangelists, two of which were Apostles and two were "apostalic men." Kaworu would certainly seem to fit the bill for the former, no?

Phew, lots of Reichu to respond to. I'll try to be as brief and succinct as possible. Don't wanna get out of hand with omnislashing. :lol:

Reichu wrote:Do they really? Rei Q's deal is that "her soul is somewhere else" -- an in, not actually in her body. Meaning, she wasn't born with her own soul. Meaning, it's still hinted that artificial beings aren't born with souls. Else Rei Q's soul would be in Rei Q, and not "somewhere else".

With regard to multiple Reis coexisting: as well as I understand it, this is an idea only present in the preview, and not in the final product. Can we say with any certainty that it actually happened? It could still be that only one Rei is capable of being physically active at a time, only this time we have the added complication that her body and soul are in two separate places. Given we've been considering the idea of the Adams as divided but still somehow active beings, this might not be as weird as it first appears. This makes me wonder also if the weird contraption she soaks in still has any kind of personality digitizing function, as per NGE; or if (instead of / in addition to the previous) it is perhaps acting as a technological intermediary between body and soul. It IS the place where Rei Q encounters her other self...

I was actually talking about the conundrum of Rei II being preserved inside Unit 01 the 60-odd Reis that followed her despite her not being dead and her soul, assuming she has one, being otherwise occupied. Though since you've raised the idea, I suppose it is possible that the other Ayanamis have had a personality impressed on them with that same kind of transplant OS. It does jive with what Kaworu said about her soul being in the wrong place (I took it to mean it was somehow not in the right place within the body myself) and it could also explain why they've gone through so many of these other Reis when Gendo was protective of Rei II. If that does end up being the case I worry that it might end up really cheapening the development Rei Q had if she ends up getting tossed aside because "oh, she isn't real anyway."

Remember that Eva-01 is able to be reconfigured for Rei's use, and Eva-02 is reconfigured for Mari's use. This is done on the fly, unlike in NGE, where reconfiguring a core is apparently not a simple process; despite knowing about Asuka's imminent replacement they don't have it done in time for Kaworu's arrival. The fact that the Evas need to be reconfigured at all implies that what they sync with is personalized: not just anything will do. Combine this personalization with stuff like Mari being able to use Eva-02 and Eva-08 after -05 is completely vaporized. It brings to mind data being copied around from place to place, very much unlike a soul.

I was thinking of the core unit's configuration acting more as some kind of customized intermediary that allowed the pilot to interface more smoothly with whatever resided in the Eva. I know you said earlier you didn't like the term but what you're suggesting sounds more like a sort of pilot-specific AI that has been impressed on the core, if I'm following things correctly? Not a programmed AI but a digital replication of something akin to the MAGI? That's certainly a very interesting thought. Isn't the Dummy Plug said to be something similar to that? It's not actually alive but it's a good enough replica that it can make decisions in battle and generate an AT field despite not having an actual soul? The immediate comparison I'm thinking of is that battle AI that Dix Neuf had for some reason.

Hm...If New Unit 02 is a new Eva build, but Asuka's core stuff is transferred into it, does it mean that the new Eva would just be Unit 02 reborn? :chinscratch:

I don't think that Eva-02 necessarily contains Asuka's mother in any capacity, but, going along with Phoenix's train of thought, I didn't think it could be ruled out either. It could still be that the missing mothers aren't a coincidence because, for whatever reason, the data of the women who reincarnated the Adams as Lilin make the best control systems. NTE's well-known "all Shinji much, much more of the time" focus change can readily explain the lack of any real attention given to what Asuka and Mari sync with. (Consider, we missed fourteen years of their lives as they fought for the future of life on Earth. "Who am I piloting?" is something of an insignificant side detail in comparison.) It could also be a reveal that's being delayed for the final film. Really hard to say right now.

I'm not saying it's absolutely not the case but I feel like if they were going in that direction they'd have made a bigger deal about it or at least put a little focus on the subject. The fact that Mari and Asuka's mothers are "missing" is treated as such a non-issue for them that revealing they are inside the Evas wouldn't have much of an impact for the viewer. I don't think we even know of Asuka actually knew her mother.

I figured this was a function of the Adams being separated from their own cores, thus the one that Yui entered was an artificial blank. It not being an original is a possible reason I suggested for Mark.09's ability to take control of the Wunder away from her.

Here's a thought I had: what if the Adams had to be given artificial cores because theirs broke during Second Impact and released their souls? They did generate some kind of crosses during the event and those usually show up during a core rupture/AT Field collapse. Seele could have salvaged something and repaired it to create the Vessel.

Going back to the previous post to round things out, what I meant by entering the core was that Shinji ripped the seat away and actually seemed to go down into the core himself, well beyond the Great Beyond Depth, and Asuka and Mari just got dangerously close. But the interior array in Unit 13 didn't seem to be moving at all. Of course nobody on the outside was monitoring and since the whole Eva got encased in a giant core that point might be entirely moot.
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby pwhodges » Fri May 04, 2018 5:23 pm

^ Or thirteen apostles if you count both Judas and his replacement, Matthias.
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Fri May 04, 2018 9:48 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:
In the interests of making this post less lengthy...  SPOILER: Show
@DarkBluePhoenix: In this continuity that nothing about the Magi is known, so we have no idea if similar results can be achieved without harm to the "donor". The reason I brought up the Magi as a point of reference at all is that it's not unknown for NTE to roll out ideas and concepts that weren't fully used in the original, or to otherwise subvert them; so NGE's cover story for how Evas were piloted (mentioned VERY offhandedly in episode 13) becoming the actual genuine way they're piloted in NTE fits. As for how this works, our only point of reference is Yui's experiment. Between this (which was, to no surprise at all, fatal; you just don't lower yourself into an alien organ with nothing but a wetsuit for protection and expect to live), and other moms being MIA as you mentioned, it seems that whatever exactly this process is, it may not leave anything behind. In real life transhumanist theory, there is the very real question of whether the human mind can ever be transformed into another state, like a digital one, without destroying the original in the process. NTE might be winking at that.

The hypothesis is meant as a work in progress to tie together all of the details in NTE that don't reconcile with the original series. I am somewhat hesitant to use the term "digitized personality" without any reservations whatsoever, since the label on Eva-02's core COULD be a euphemism for something non-technological. [This sort of language use was prevalent in the original NGE (not 100% sure offhand how much NTE does it) -- for example, the very flesh-and-blood S2 "engine", which gets "installed" in the very flesh-and-blood Eva Series.] But there's also the change that it's not misleading us at all. In NGE, if someone blew up their Eva, they would never be able to pilot again; but here, a mere core reconfiguration on a completely different Eva later, and the pilot is good to go. This only really makes sense if one-of-a-kind souls aren't being salvaged into the cores, as per NGE, but if instead the cores contain something that is completely replaceable. Data, unlike a soul, can be freely copied and moved around; if you lose one copy, it's no big deal provided you have a backup somewhere else. That fits with what we see here. Our Test Type Eva-01 again needs some gimmick that makes it different from the others, so here that could be the fact that it's a transitional test unit, where maybe the soul wasn't even successfully digitized, just moved from one place to another. Asuka and Mari's missing mothers (or whoever's data it is that they sync with) could potentially have been victims of a more successful but still fatal soul digitization process; and unlike Yui, they can be freely copied in the form of data, which means Eva-05 and Eva-02 getting blown up won't put Mari and Asuka out of action.

About the cores, that's a good question. The promotional poster for 1.0 includes the key term "L-01 TYPE Interconversion System CORE UNIT". Okay, so this translation is hot garbage, since it prioritizes sounding technical at the expense of making immediate sense. The kanji for "Interconversion" here also means, more understandably, "mutual/reciprocal exchange". This might bring to mind Eva synchronization and how it is a two-way feedback system. It also, for whatever reason, recalls in my mind something from the Classified Information, so perhaps despite the NGE/NTE divide it could still be semi-relevant:


(Yes, it really does call the core a "unit", in English, some time before the new movies would do the exact same thing. Hmmm.)
As mentioned earlier, the core is also indicated in the first film to play a role in A.T. Field deployment. This is hinted with the Angels as well, since dialogue attributes their physical disintegration to their A.T. Fields going down, and of course this happens the moment that their cores are destroyed...

Ultimately, the closest thing to an answer is probably along the lines that the core is a feature of god-like beings that lets them do god-like things because cores look cool and no further justification is needed.* If the (non-Rei, non-Kaworu)** children actually are the Adams' souls confined within mortal shells born from mortal women, a key justification for doing so might be precisely because a Lilin body is so limited. It acts as its own limiter upon the souls' power. The children need to be granted access to their original bodies, or something very similar, before any of their power can be unleashed; and because the rebirth process has made them unaware of who they really are, their keepers can manipulate them in a way that would be difficult to impossible if they were fully independent superpowered gods. To bring this back to the core issue: since their original bodies would have contained the soul within a core, bringing the pilot's soul in contact with an Eva core through the use of the plug provides a controlled way of completing the circuit, as it were. This doesn't answer why the core is needed in the first place, but we see that the Angels have them and that they are seemingly necessary, so it is probably one of those details that you just have to take for granted.

Good lord this thread is tough to keep up with, but oh well, I'll try my best mainly to respond to another of Reichu's massive posts. My response won't be nearly as long, but here we go anyway...

Ok, so at the the top, I can see Anno (or one of the screen writers/researchers) knowing about this theory and somehow subtle working it in, or its just a coincidence that happens to fit something in our real world, which NGE and NTE is full of, like the primary topic of metaphysics in general, which no less than two characters are fully apart of, with others who know a great deal about it.Now, could the human mind survive the transfer? I realized this morning we already have an answer for this in Kyoko, who physically survived the contact experiment, but had her ind literally ripped apart and became not only deranged, but homicidal and suicidal. So this gives further credence that even if the contact experiment goes perfectly well, things may not turn out for the best. Speaking of assumptions, do we know if the Rei of NTE is Rei II, or could she be Rei I? I'm honestly not sure. I've always assumed it was Rei II, but for some reason, this may not be the case, just like we're not sure how the MAGI or Cores work anymore.

As for the Core Theory... if there are digitized personalities, or "MOM OS" inside the Core to act as a limiter to keep the children embodying the souls of the Adams from starting anything, that would make sense. It's like the ECU in a car that keeps us from using the full potential of a modern car, by limiting the power output the engine can handle. Now exchange "ECU" with "Core" and "engine" with "pilot" and the theory would make sense, if they do hold the souls of Adam. This theory can be further assumed to be correct with the case of Asuka. As Asuka is being drawn into the Core of Unit-03, her bod grew wings. While I originally thought that it was just some cool imagery at the time, now I believe (with this theory) that as she was drawn in, her Angelic soul was trying to defend itself, which is how she survived. Not only that, the blue glow in her eye is the result of the damage her human body took fighting off Bardiel, and can no longer fully contain the power of her Angelic soul, and the patch acts as a another Core, keeping her bleeding power in check while outside the EVA (think Kenpachi Zaraki from Bleach and his eyepatch), which wold also explain her superhuman strength in cracking that window between her and Shinji.

Also, the Core could be used as a moderator like a graphite moderator in a nuclear reactor, controlling, as you mentioned, the two way sync feedback. While the children can feel the EVAs get injured/damaged, they can also move the EVAs as extensions of their own bodies, but having all the tactile data from the EVA being fed into anyone's brain would be overwhelming, so the Core would probably restrict all the data being sent to the pilots for their well being, otherwise they may be too much data to even concentrate on piloting.

Now... who would the fourth soul bearer be if we discount Rei and Kaworu? We can assume that Shinji, Asuka, and Mari have them because they're pilots. Seeing as we have no other viable pilots, perhaps one of the adults like Misato, who was present at Second Impact, or a surprise character lie Sakura.
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sat May 05, 2018 9:42 am

I noticed something very interesting in the Seele Code that pops up on the Wunder's screens last night. I gotta do some more research when I get home and can get some screencaps of the writing on the Vessel's plug. Hopefully it might give us some insight on what it was intending to do. If nothing else it's a neat easter egg. :nyao:

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:Speaking of assumptions, do we know if the Rei of NTE is Rei II, or could she be Rei I? I'm honestly not sure. I've always assumed it was Rei II, but for some reason, this may not be the case, just like we're not sure how the MAGI or Cores work anymore.

We do! In 2.0 when she's inside her tank, she's wearing a collar that says 'Rei II' on a little plate! Rei Q doesn' wear one and her arms and legs aren't cuffed to the tank but I have vague memories of a recent storyboard book or something of the like referring to her by number. I think it was 08? Was that a thing or is my brain just making stuff up?
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby Blockio » Sat May 05, 2018 10:02 am

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:We do! In 2.0 when she's inside her tank, she's wearing a collar that says 'Rei II' on a little plate! Rei Q doesn' wear one and her arms and legs aren't cuffed to the tank but I have vague memories of a recent storyboard book or something of the like referring to her by number. I think it was 08? Was that a thing or is my brain just making stuff up?

I was ready for 4 or 5, but 8 kinda catches me offguard :'D
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby Reichu » Sat May 05, 2018 11:26 am

The cut dialogue has Fuyu calling her "experimental prototype #6". Even if treated as canon, I don't know if this really tells us anything useful -- I don't think we know what "kind" of Rei the one from the first two movies was. I suppose if Asuka can identify Rei Q by sight as being from an "early lot of Ayanami Types", and Rei Q looks identical to the last Rei we knew, that could be implying that Rei 2 was from this lot as well (and all of the more advanced ones came and went during the 14 years). Then again, one of Asuka's eyes is weird, so who knows, maybe she can see things normal people can't...

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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sat May 05, 2018 12:23 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The cut dialogue has Fuyu calling her "experimental prototype #6". Even if treated as canon, I don't know if this really tells us anything useful -- I don't think we know what "kind" of Rei the one from the first two movies was. I suppose if Asuka can identify Rei Q by sight as being from an "early lot of Ayanami Types", and Rei Q looks identical to the last Rei we knew, that could be implying that Rei 2 was from this lot as well (and all of the more advanced ones came and went during the 14 years). Then again, one of Asuka's eyes is weird, so who knows, maybe she can see things normal people can't...

That's what I was thinking of! Thanks!

Maybe it's as simple as numbers? With our Rei being #2 it doesn't seem to outlandish that she'd likewise be from the early batch. Asuka spoke to Rei Q before she saw her, so maybe the personality gave it away? Like the early prototype Ayanamis are able to question and develop like Q did but the later ones are good little automatons who have been 'fixed' so they do and die as they are told and that's why Gendo has such a large collection of heads? I could see Gendo banking on something like that to help sabotage the Vessel so Wille could destroy it. If Q hadn't had a sudden burst of self-preservation it might have absorbed her. :emogendo:
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby Blockio » Sat May 05, 2018 3:13 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:Asuka spoke to Rei Q before she saw her, so maybe the personality gave it away? Like the early prototype Ayanamis are able to question and develop like Q did but the later ones are good little automatons who have been 'fixed' so they do and die as they are told and that's why Gendo has such a large collection of heads? I could see Gendo banking on something like that to help sabotage the Vessel so Wille could destroy it. If Q hadn't had a sudden burst of self-preservation it might have absorbed her. :emogendo:

I like the idea of different Rei clones having different personalities (yes, I know, Anima does that)

Anyway, back on topic: From what we have seen, I wouldnt be surprised if Mark.09 would have ultimately liquified and got absorbed/absorbed itself into the Wunder to take it over
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Re: Mark .09, Adams Vessel, Unit 13, and the stolen AAA WUNDER

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sat May 05, 2018 7:01 pm

It's possible that it could have! The black form is called "transitional form" after all.

That might relate to the thing I noticed last night. I was scanning over the stuff that appears in the Wunder and in its own plug to see if I could recognize the characters in the script. Some of them do look familiar but I can't directly place them in anything. It might just be arcane looking nonsense, maybe not. I'd wager it's a reference to something. But there was a character that I did recognize:
SPOILER: Show
Image


If you recall the preview at the end of 2.0, it appeared there too. It's the symbol on the bottom left:
SPOILER: Show
Image

It's just been duplicated and rotated in the top picture so the white dots overlap.

That symbol is the Ultra Sign of Ultraseven, one of the four Ultra Brothers:
SPOILER: Show
Image
Image
This isn't really new information. It's been brought up before in the Adams thread here, here, and there's a handy chart on the wiki too.

What stood out to me was the placement; it's the only one of the Ultra Signs that appears in the movie and it just so happens to be the one sign representing the brother who resembles the three-eyed Adam, the one thought to be Unit 01. All this talk of artificial souls and the personality transfer OS got me thinking. What if the Vessel of the Adams is a sort of living hard drive that's carry a...let's say a digitized Adam (or maybe even all four of them), or a Seele-modified replica of an Adam in data form. The data stream it uploads into Wunder could be a control system or a program designed to seize control of Unit 01 and subjugate it to Seele. See how the lines of runes circle around the symbol and sort of seal it in? That could be how the Vessel was able to override Unit 01's control of the ship so easily. Not so much because of its "Original Master" status, but because the payload it's carrying is specially crafted to do exactly that. A speed bump in my line of thinking here is that that this same symbol appears in the Vessel's plug too. I was hoping they two sets of symbols would be slightly different but it seems like they're not, and I'm not entirely sure if it jives with the rest of the hypothesis I'm laying out.

Although now that I think about it, the Vessel did temporarily go offline when Asuka decapitated it. Rei's entry plug was going through the reboot sequence when she decided to eject. But the Wunder didn't seem to recover at all. When it died, Wunder's systems instantly recovered except for the main engine, which needed time for some reason. So the Vessel might not have simply been spreading itself into the Wunder's systems.

But I think it's at least within the realm of possibility given what we know. Consider the Dummy Plugs for a second. As far as we know in this continuity, they're not linked to Rei. We don't know who or what they're replicating if anything. But we do know they were made in Golgotha Base. Golgotha is a place outside of Jerusalem where Jesus was thought to be crucified, but it also doubles as another Ultraman reference. Planet Golgotha is where the villain Yapool captured and crucified the four Ultra Brothers in Ultraman Ace. That's what's happening in the chart up above. He then drained their powers from them and transferred them into Ace Killer, a robot he'd built to kill the fifth brother, Ultraman Ace. Ace Killer was able to replicate all of their signature attacks even though he wasn't an Ultra himself. The Vessel also displays abilities very similar to the awakening Unit 01 and what little we saw of Mark.06, but only after Seele's control system takes over.

After Shinji leaves, Gendo says that the dummy plug they have will be sufficient for his plans with Unit 01, which means that somehow, the dummy system is capable of triggering an awakening, or at least Gendo believes that it is. We've theorized before that the reason Shinji and Kaworu are capable of awakening Evas is because they carry the souls of Adams. If the dummy plugs were carrying Adam data then it does seem reasonable that they would be sufficient to act as triggers. And the research that went into that and the experiments Bethany Base was conducting on the 3rd Angel could have eventually lead to the creation of the Vessel

What do you guys think? The Vessel having the same symbols inside itself took a bit of the wind out of my sails, I admit. :lol: But it couldn't hurt to put the idea out there for consideration anyway, right?
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