The Father and King stuff

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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ErgoProxy
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The Father and King stuff

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Postby ErgoProxy » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:30 pm

It's 5am here and I can't sleep, so feel free to close/merge/dismember this topic if you think it deserves that.

Okay. So we all know that's how Kaworu calls Gendo, and so far no coherent explanation of those lines crossed my path of life, so to say. (YAAAAWN)

Until now.

Shit4chanSays The Internet wisdom tells that there is one person that every single Japanese person would call his or her Father and this is The Emperor Himself. The National Father of Japan, to be specific. Some even compare Him to the prophet Muhammad in the sense of respect and reverence He is expected to be shown.

So my interpretation of what Kaworu wants to express in 2.0 is that he's totally obedient to Gendo, out of his own free will, and up to the point he's ready to offer his life on Gendo's demand. And apparently he's okay with that. What he's not okay with in 3.0 though, and why he belittles Gendo to the rank of merely some ordinary king, is playing his own plans against him, which turns them into the worst nightmare he could think of and beyond. (Perhaps Shinji matters, too; I hope for that.)

Not a big surprise, eh? But maybe a hard emotional ride for the audience whose fathers or grandfathers were taught in schools that supreme authority over the country is held by some divine being.

For real.

So choose your gods carefully, boys and girls, and be aware that sometimes the only thing which can save your arse is soul of some penguin on steroids, propelling the main engine of your flagship.

Amen for that! Also, share your thoughts.
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Re: The Father and King stuff

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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:32 am

View Original PostErgoProxy wrote:Shit4chanSays The Internet wisdom tells that there is one person that every single Japanese person would call his or her Father and this is The Emperor Himself. The National Father of Japan, to be specific. Some even compare Him to the prophet Muhammad in the sense of respect and reverence He is expected to be shown.

So my interpretation of what Kaworu wants to express in 2.0 is that he's totally obedient to Gendo, out of his own free will, and up to the point he's ready to offer his life on Gendo's demand. And apparently he's okay with that. What he's not okay with in 3.0 though, and why he belittles Gendo to the rank of merely some ordinary king, is playing his own plans against him, which turns them into the worst nightmare he could think of and beyond. (Perhaps Shinji matters, too; I hope for that.)

Father and King? That sounds awfully familiar, especially considering how heavily Neon Genesis drew from Christian lore. One of the first major story arcs in the Christian Bible is God flooding the Earth in an attempt to reset it after Humanity has become the very incarnation of sin. However, when humanity was first created, they were completely obedient to God, only turning from his guidance when Eve was manipulated (technically told the truth) by Satan in the form of a serpent. Her and Adam both ate the of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and since they had already been given eternal life (granted when eating from the Tree of Life), they became as powerful as God himself. In an attempt to keep them from overthrowing him, God revoked their eternal life, and exiled Humanity from the Garden of Eden forever, so that no other human may eat of the Fruit of Life.
Over time, Humanity's knowledge corrupted them, and they became sinful, seeing God as more of a pesky overseer than an all-powerful creator, which parallels Kaworu's coming to understand that Gendo's goals are selfish. In an attempt to reset the world, and rid it of original sin, God had the most holy man, Noah, along with his family, build and board an enormous wooden Ark, and fill it with two of every other species, which parallels Gendo and Fuyutsuki setting up Third Impact by subtly trying to get Rei and Shinji closer to one another.
I believe that Kaworu's death represents the flood itself, as he's very clearly trying to go against Gendo. Perhaps Shinji represents Noah, as he was "safe" inside Unit 01 for 14 years while chaos and a true Third Impact took place outside, Unit 01 was his Ark.
This is probably looking too far into things, but the passengers of the Biblical Ark were on board for 40 days and 40 nights, and 40 sounds similar to 14, which COULD be a deeper connection, but is very likely just a coincidence.
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Re: The Father and King stuff

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Postby ErgoProxy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:23 pm

Pretty much WOW for that lecture on a subject I should know well as an ex-Christian.

To address that... well, it seems I'll go offtopic in my own topic, but whatever. :tongue: So you see, I can't shake the feeling that Q is somewhat related to Dante's Divine Comedy being read the Japanese way, that is backwards. That's why Shinji begins his journey in Paradise (orbiting Unit 01), where he is taken away and dragged into Purgatory (Wunder quarantine), which he escapes from only to get locked in Hell (Nerv HQ). Which is reigned by his own father. But when you think it's impossible to meet worse fate in the afterworld, Shinji proves you otherwise and descends into Limbus Puerorum (Central Dogma) – the place devoid of God's presence, where the unbaptized children are said to dwell forever. And just in case you hope you finally hit the wall of Christian ingenuity, Doors of Guf awaits wide open, ready to swallow poor Shinji into whatever nightmare lurks behind – but makes the sound of utter madness.

Hopefully it's only the L barrier and in the last installment Shinji will somehow recover from his Antichrist experience.
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Re: The Father and King stuff

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Postby Reichu » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:37 pm

View Original PostErgoProxy wrote:being read the Japanese way, that is backwards.

Not sure if serious...

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Re: The Father and King stuff

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Postby ErgoProxy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:30 pm

...or right to left? Then call it Reverse Polish Notation. :D
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Re: The Father and King stuff

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:42 am

View Original PostAdamMalkobitch wrote:Father and King? That sounds awfully familiar, especially considering how heavily Neon Genesis drew from Christian lore. One of the first major story arcs in the Christian Bible is God flooding the Earth in an attempt to reset it after Humanity has become the very incarnation of sin. However, when humanity was first created, they were completely obedient to God, only turning from his guidance when Eve was manipulated (technically told the truth) by Satan in the form of a serpent. Her and Adam both ate the of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and since they had already been given eternal life (granted when eating from the Tree of Life), they became as powerful as God himself. In an attempt to keep them from overthrowing him, God revoked their eternal life, and exiled Humanity from the Garden of Eden forever, so that no other human may eat of the Fruit of Life.
Over time, Humanity's knowledge corrupted them, and they became sinful, seeing God as more of a pesky overseer than an all-powerful creator, which parallels Kaworu's coming to understand that Gendo's goals are selfish. In an attempt to reset the world, and rid it of original sin, God had the most holy man, Noah, along with his family, build and board an enormous wooden Ark, and fill it with two of every other species, which parallels Gendo and Fuyutsuki setting up Third Impact by subtly trying to get Rei and Shinji closer to one another.
I believe that Kaworu's death represents the flood itself, as he's very clearly trying to go against Gendo. Perhaps Shinji represents Noah, as he was "safe" inside Unit 01 for 14 years while chaos and a true Third Impact took place outside, Unit 01 was his Ark.
This is probably looking too far into things, but the passengers of the Biblical Ark were on board for 40 days and 40 nights, and 40 sounds similar to 14, which COULD be a deeper connection, but is very likely just a coincidence.

This is a very intriguing post! ^_^

Another way I think you could look at it is that the Impacts represent the Flood in various staged or God's wrath in general. Seele thinks mankind sinful for eating of the FoK and wishes to wipe them out so that their souls may be purified and revived in their "proper" state with the Fruit of Life, and Kaworu and Shinji act as their chosen ones to board the ark (Eva or the Black Moon?) for the next stage. The Black Moon even comes to rest on a mountain top once the "waves" of Fourth Impact recede.

Do you suppose Gendo could represent King Nimrod, and that's why Kaworu calls him that? In 3.0 Nerv HQ has transformed into the Tower of Bable (the Nadia version but still) and the Lilin, formerly united as Nerv, have scattered around the world and can't communicate with each other even though Misato, Shinji and Gendo seem to be working toward a common goal. The city of Tokyo-3 around the base of the tower has been abandoned and left inaccessible to the Lilin. But when God descends to strike man down for his hubris, Gendo re-writes the ending and instead strikes him down and creates a new god. We even see the summit of the tower seemingly fly off into heaven at the end.

The plot of the movies actually does seem to be a retelling of Genesis but the characters are attempting to re-write it to change the ending...or the beginning to reverse the fall of Man in various ways.

Wait a sec...retelling Genesis to change the ending? God damn it, Anno. :facepalm:
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!

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Re: The Father and King stuff

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Postby Joseki » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:03 am

It may be boring, but I think Father and King are part of the fairy tail themes going on in the movies:

- Unit 00's Enchanted Shield of Virtue
- Rei reading The Happy Prince
- Shinji visually connected to the Knight piece of the shogi
- Asuka nicknamed Princess
- Gendo being the King of Lilin

I think it probably has nothing to do with religious stuff.
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Re: The Father and King stuff

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:16 am

Why not all of those things? Nadia was like that. It took bible stories, 2,000 Leagues, Atlantis lore and threw them in a blender with a bit of Yamato. That story I mentioned was even previously used in Nadia as the fall of Atlantis and 3.0 draws heavily from that. Come to think of it, Nemo was a king too and his characteristics are split up between Gendo and Misato.

Layered imagery and symbolism are the reason it's tough to decipher who is what. :lol:

If Kaworu was the stand-in for Emperor Neo/Venusias, that would also cover the Father/King stuff pretty well, though I don't know if there are many parallels there besides Kaworu being Seele's puppet boy and him deciding to sacrifice himself so Shinji could live.
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!


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