Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby Kestrellius » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:26 am

So. There are a bunch of different distinct kinds of entities in NGE, right? We've got humans, we've got Angels, we've got Eva units -- both Adam-derived and Lilith-derived -- we've got Rei, Kaworu, Adam, and Lilith. The types have various attributes. Our goal is to identify which types of entities have which attributes, and how these attributes are causally related. A listing:

LILIN:
- Made of normal matter.
- Unable to easily project and manipulate AT fields.
- No core. Soul is presumably held in the brain, or distributed throughout the body?
- Possess Fruit of Knowledge, which is probably something like the ability to learn, but it's not clear how that works mechanically.
- Do not possess Fruit of Life (S2 Engine).

ANGELS:
- Made of particle-wave matter, whatever the fuck that is.
- Able to easily project and manipulate AT fields.
- Have cores, which hold their souls.
- Do not possess Fruit of Knowledge.
- Possess Fruit of Life (S2 Engine).

EVAS:
- Made of particle-wave matter.
- Able to easily project and manipulate AT fields.
- Have cores, which hold their souls.
- May or may not possess Fruit of Knowledge -- it's not clear. More on this below.
- By default, do not possess Fruit of Life, but can acquire it.

Rei AND KAWORU:
- Made of particle-wave matter.
- Probably able to manipulate AT fields?
- Might have a core?
- May or may not possess the Fruit of Knowledge. If Kaworu doesn't, he sure does a good job of acting like he does.
- Kaworu presumably has an S2 engine. Rei presumably doesn't.

ADAM:
- Made of particle-wave matter.
- Able to do AT field wizardry.
- Definitely has a core.
- May or may not possess Fruit of Knowledge.
- Definitely has an S2 engine.

LILITH:
- Made of particle-wave matter.
- Can AT field.
- No visible core but who the fuck knows.
- Presumably has the Fruit of Knowledge but who the fuck knows.
- May have an S2 engine?

Ooooookay. So, what I'm trying to do is establish causal relationships between all the different things going on here. So, question time:

- Why are Lilin the only type of entity not made of particle-wave matter?
- Similarly, why don't Lilin have cores? Why do some entities have cores, but others don't?
- What exactly does having a core do? Is having a core a prerequisite for being made of particle-wave matter?
- Are Adam and Lilith fundamentally the same type of entity, or not?
- If Adam and Lilith are distinct -- with Adam possessing only the Fruit of Life, and Lilith only the Fruit of Knowledge, and with their respective progeny sharing their attributes -- why is Lilith so different from humanity, compared to Adam and the Angels? She's made of PWM, huge, and AT-manipulation-capable. And why did cloning Lilith result in Eva-01, which is almost indistinguishable from Adam-derived Evas, rather than something more Lilin-like?
- Does Lilith have a core? If not, why not?
- Does Lilith have an S2 engine? If not, why not? Why would you (you being the FAR) ever not equip a spacefaring progenitor device with an infinite power source, if you can easily build them? And if she doesn't have an Engine, how did she survive her eons-long trip to Earth? Were there solar panels on the Black Moon?
- Does Rei have a core?
- What exactly is it that allows Evas and Angels to manifest their AT fields so strongly, compared to Lilin? It can't be the S2 engine, because Evas don't (usually) have those. Is it being made of PWM that confers this ability?
- What is the physical nature of the Fruit of Knowledge, if any?
- How in the hell is the capacity for science in any way equivalent or comparable to a physical object that generates infinite energy? How does a choice between these two wildly different "Fruits" make any sense?
- If you teach an Angel to perform science, does it gain the Fruit of Knowledge and thus become a "god"?
- Does Rei have the Fruit of Knowledge? Does Kaworu?
- Do Eva units have the Fruit of Knowledge? The pilots do, but do the units themselves? They have human souls in them, that would have had the FoK before they were salvaged -- but the FoK is probably a property of the body, not the soul. I mean, if you took the soul out of an Angel and stuck it in an Eva, that wouldn't give it an S2 engine, would it?

So, one very simple answer to the question of whether Lilith has a core came to me while writing this: she used to, but it was removed or destroyed during whatever process led to Rei having her soul. If she had an S2 engine, maybe it was destroyed in the process too?

And -- I don't think Kaworu actually has an S2 engine, because I don't see where he could have gotten one. He was pretty much built by SEELE from the aftermath of the Adam explosion, wasn't he? And they certainly didn't have Engines to be passing around. It would also explain why he needed Unit-02 to fight for him...

I think the model I'm building is this:

- Adam and Lilith were originally identical Seeds of Life. Each Seed was made of PWM, had a core, and possessed both Fruits.
- A lifeform made of PWM must have a core.
- Rei and Kaworu, therefore, have cores.
- A "default" lifeform, possessing neither the Fruit of Life nor the Fruit of Knowledge, is a creature made of PWM, with a core. If given a soul, it is capable of ATF manipulation, but not advanced shapeshifting and regen. This is what newly-cloned Evas are.
- The Fruit of Knowledge is having a soul that can exist outside of a core. This allows for superior cognition, but the drawback of not having a core is being made of normal matter, unable to effectively use the ATF.
- However, it may be possible to have both the FoK and a core. Having both Fruits would seem to require it, but it could be that an entity can have both the FoK and a core, but not the FoL. However, if this is the case, why didn't Lilith give the Lilin cores? Does the FoK come with a handicap, while the FoL doesn't?
- Maybe the SoL-imposed handicap of the FoL is that your whole species is just one entity?
- On having both Fruits: obviously, certain entities like Unit-01 post-Zeruel have both, but if Unit-01 doesn't (natively) have the FoK, then the combination is only being achieved with the "hack" of joining the pilot with the Eva.
- So, our only non-hack example of entities with both -- other than presumably the FAR, who we know next to nothing about -- are the SoL. But maybe the SoL don't actually have both. What if -- being constructs, not meant to be actual people -- they only have the FoL?
- In that case, maybe having the FoK actually does make it impossible to have a core, and the only way around that is mad science fuckery like with the Evas?

Okay, I think I'm out of things to say now. Sorry, that kind of spiraled into a wall there at the end.

TL;DR: Either Anno is an obfuscating jerk, I'm an idiot, or NGE lore is a huge giant mess.
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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:36 pm

I'll answer as many of these as I can

View Original PostKestrellius wrote:- Are Adam and Lilith fundamentally the same type of entity, or not?

Yes, originally. The difference that occurred were the results of the fruit they had.

- If Adam and Lilith are distinct -- with Adam possessing only the Fruit of Life, and Lilith only the Fruit of Knowledge, and with their respective progeny sharing their attributes -- why is Lilith so different from humanity, compared to Adam and the Angels? She's made of PWM, huge, and AT-manipulation-capable. And why did cloning Lilith result in Eva-01, which is almost indistinguishable from Adam-derived Evas, rather than something more Lilin-like?

I'd guess the difference in how they create life. Evolution vs creationism.

- Does Lilith have a core? If not, why not?

Probably.

- Does Lilith have an S2 engine? If not, why not? Why would you (you being the FAR) ever not equip a spacefaring progenitor device with an infinite power source, if you can easily build them? And if she doesn't have an Engine, how did she survive her eons-long trip to Earth? Were there solar panels on the Black Moon?

NGE2 says she doesn't. Adam took all the remaining FoL and Lilith decided to chase Adam down to get it back. Yeeeeeeep.

- Does Rei have a core?

Nothing of the sort shows up when she gets scanned.

- What exactly is it that allows Evas and Angels to manifest their AT fields so strongly, compared to Lilin? It can't be the S2 engine, because Evas don't (usually) have those. Is it being made of PWM that confers this ability?

This one is fun because it's quite clear the souls aren't actually different at all since the Evas have Lilin souls. The CI posits the Evas are a magnification of an ego and ego = ATF. That sounds like a really lazy explanation to me but I don't have a better explanation.

- How in the hell is the capacity for science in any way equivalent or comparable to a physical object that generates infinite energy? How does a choice between these two wildly different "Fruits" make any sense?

The FAR created all of that to begin with via science. I think you're really undervaluing its potential.

- Does Rei have the Fruit of Knowledge?

Rei is Lilith so yes.

Does Kaworu?

Considering he doesn't understand Lilin I'd say no.

- Do Eva units have the Fruit of Knowledge? The pilots do, but do the units themselves? They have human souls in them, that would have had the FoK before they were salvaged -- but the FoK is probably a property of the body, not the soul. I mean, if you took the soul out of an Angel and stuck it in an Eva, that wouldn't give it an S2 engine, would it?

I've got nothing.

And -- I don't think Kaworu actually has an S2 engine, because I don't see where he could have gotten one. He was pretty much built by SEELE from the aftermath of the Adam explosion, wasn't he? And they certainly didn't have Engines to be passing around. It would also explain why he needed Unit-02 to fight for him...

He was apparently found as an embryo after SI hence his birthday being the same day.



I don't think a lot of the backstory stuff was important enough to them to really flesh them out. Most of it is probably just vague outlines that existed so they'd have some idea where everything was going.
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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:35 pm

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:The CI posits the Evas are a magnification of an ego and ego = ATF.

Not actually what it says. Polished-up version:

Evas are vessels for souls that abandoned human form -- egos magnified through embodiment as giant human beings.

Possibly still off a little, but whatever the case the magnified ego (i.e., the ATF that can actually do things) is linked to the soul's residence within a giant vessel. I don't think this is a complete explanation, though. Absent is any mention of how Evas and other god-like beings seem to use a material configuration with a higher wavelength than Lilin's. The giant body can't hurt, but being made of magical god-stuff is ultimately more important (proven easily via Kaworu and Rei, whose egos probably retain some "residual" magnification via their extended stays in Seed bodies, but really what are the odds of them being able to use psychokinetic powers in traditional Lilin bodies?).

Other stuff:

The Evas lacking the Fruit of Knowledge doesn't make any sense, as far as I can see. Why would Eva-01 be the only one to have it? Consider, Lilin did not sprout directly from Lilith's body -- the process was very indirect. And yet all Lilin have the Fruit of Knowledge, somehow. What could the transmission method be other than soul-based? And if so, on what basis would souls lose their fruit upon being transferred into a new body? Can anyone envision any way that Lilith would have been able to give primitive humans souls with the Fruit of Knowledge if the fruit was so fragile it was abruptly lost when taken into a new body? There'd be no way for her to get it to us. Thus the Evas must have it.

Eva2 is a bit contradictory when it comes to Fruits (because of course it is), saying that the Fruit of Life is the S2 Engine, while also saying that the Fruit of Life is something that Adam's SOUL "ate" too much of. This can possibly be reconciled by assuming the Fruits are metaphysical capsules of data attached to the soul, that in the FoL's case enables the growth of the S2 in the core. However, this doesn't explain how Eva-01 could gain the FoL just by eating the dead flesh of an S2 engine.

I honestly think the Fruits are one of the sloppiest parts of NGE's mythos and are cul-de-sacs where well-intentioned deep thinking goes to die, which is a pity given how much attention they attract.

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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:50 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Not actually what it says. Polished-up version:


Possibly still off a little, but whatever the case the magnified ego (i.e., the ATF that can actually do things) is linked to the soul's residence within a giant vessel. I don't think this is a complete explanation, though. Absent is any mention of how Evas and other god-like beings seem to use a material configuration with a higher wavelength than Lilin's. The giant body can't hurt, but being made of magical god-stuff is ultimately more important (proven easily via Kaworu and Rei, whose egos probably retain some "residual" magnification via their extended stays in Seed bodies, but really what are the odds of them being able to use psychokinetic powers in traditional Lilin bodies?).


I was doing a really shitty cliffnotes version. But yeah I don't think that explanation makes complete sense.


However, this doesn't explain how Eva-01 could gain the FoL just by eating the dead flesh of an S2 engine.


She ate the Fruit of Life, GET IT? Or course we could take much more horrific implications from this that she actually ate Zeruel's soul too. I think I want to get off this train right here.


I honestly think the Fruits are one of the sloppiest parts of NGE's mythos and are cul-de-sacs where well-intentioned deep thinking goes to die, which is a pity given how much attention they attract.


I can probably fanwank something that makes it passable but it'd be a sloppy mess.
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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby Kestrellius » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:49 am

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:I'll answer as many of these as I can


Yes, originally. The difference that occurred were the results of the fruit they had.


By "originally" I mean when they arrived on Earth. Which I guess isn't really "originally".

NGE2 says she doesn't. Adam took all the remaining FoL and Lilith decided to chase Adam down to get it back. Yeeeeeeep.


What. I...what. So...what, now we have three separate explanations for the Seeds of Life, all from NGE2?

1. FAR sent out tons of Seeds and eventually two landed on the same planet.
2. FAR were about to go extinct and sent out seven Seeds as horribly ineffective lifeboats, and two landed on the same planet millions of years apart because fuck you don't ask questions.
3. Adam somehow decided to steal a bunch of S2 engines and run off and land on Earth, and Lilith pursued? Where were they when this happened? Why did either of them do any of this? If Adam wanted more S2s, why didn't it just build them? It's not like they're hard to make. SEELE built nine of the things in the space of like a year immediately after reverse-engineering them from one damaged sample. And then when she got to Earth Lilith decided to shit out a bunch of humans for no reason instead of recovering Adam's FoL? What?

So what I'm getting from this is that NGE2 is contradictory bullshit and we should probably ignore it and fanwank our own explanations? I was sort of looking for an excuse to disregard the "FAR going extinct" thing anyway. That was fucking stupid. Even a literal supernova wouldn't pose any threat to a species capable of making something like GNR.


Nothing of the sort shows up when she gets scanned.


Hm.

This one is fun because it's quite clear the souls aren't actually different at all since the Evas have Lilin souls. The CI posits the Evas are a magnification of an ego and ego = ATF. That sounds like a really lazy explanation to me but I don't have a better explanation.


Well...okay. I mean, that doesn't really make any sense, but whatever. Handwavium I guess.

The FAR created all of that to begin with via science. I think you're really undervaluing its potential.


Oh, no, I don't mean that. Obviously science is incredibly powerful; infinite energy would be practically useless without it. I just mean that it's such a weird apples-and-oranges comparison. Like...they're not the same sort of thing, at all.

Rei is Lilith so yes.


Do we know for sure that Lilith had the FoK herself, as opposed to "holding on" to a supply of FoK that she gave to the Lilin? And Rei's not 1-to-1 Lilith, is she? There's some Yui in there too, and obviously there's still the big Lilith balloon-animal sitting in TD.

Considering he doesn't understand Lilin I'd say no.


Hm. I'm trying to figure out if the FoK is actually something like the ability to experience the outside world -- like, the Angels are conscious, but because their souls are in their cores and not connected to any sensory organs, they can't actually perceive anything, unless something like a Lilin connects to them psychically. The same would be true of the Evas if they don't have the FoK -- which might explain why they can't function effectively without Lilin pilots. Although Unit-01 was able to tell that Shinji was in danger in Ep1, so...

View Original PostReichu wrote:The Evas lacking the Fruit of Knowledge doesn't make any sense, as far as I can see. Why would Eva-01 be the only one to have it? Consider, Lilin did not sprout directly from Lilith's body -- the process was very indirect. And yet all Lilin have the Fruit of Knowledge, somehow. What could the transmission method be other than soul-based? And if so, on what basis would souls lose their fruit upon being transferred into a new body? Can anyone envision any way that Lilith would have been able to give primitive humans souls with the Fruit of Knowledge if the fruit was so fragile it was abruptly lost when taken into a new body? There'd be no way for her to get it to us. Thus the Evas must have it.


What if Eva-01 didn't actually have the FoK, though? I mean I know it was said to have both post-Zeruel, but I think every time that came up Shinji was synced to it. That's what I mean -- that the Evas are said to "have" the FoK via their pilots.

I think I'd been thinking that Lilith gave the FoK directly to the Lilin after creating them. I mean, the SoL do have some kind of agency and ability to do things independently, right?

Also, here's a question: do non-human Lilith-based lifeforms have the FoK? Do they have souls?

So. Still no hard answers on how cores or PWM work, right?
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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby Reichu » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:02 am

You've got something of mine at the end of your post but it wasn't linked to my name or the post being responded to. I've fixed it this time, but for the future please make sure all quotes are properly attributed.

You'll probably also get more answers by combing through the archives, just FYI. These kinds of topics have been trotted out ad infinitum here, and based on the radio silence I assume most of the remaining regulars (myself included) are just too tired to do the entire thing over from scratch.

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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:41 am

Why not make an FAQ thread with links to the various threads where the common topics people are tired of were already discussed?
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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:38 am

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:Considering he doesn't understand Lilin I'd say no.

I've been wondering about this. Kaworu doesn't 'get' Lilin, but how much of that stems from his personal experiences versus an actual inability? The Angels are solitary creatures by nature and even the human protagonists have trouble understanding other people. Could he learn with proper social interaction?

Unit 01 shows off all the traits of an Angel when it goes berserk despite apparently not having an S2 organ. Maybe it's supposed to show that they're all not so different? :lol:
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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby Reichu » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:52 am

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:Why not make an FAQ thread with links to the various threads where the common topics people are tired of were already discussed?

I'm too tired to do even that. (Not mere bluster -- I don't even have the energy to work on the Eva2 translation at the moment.)

But if someone else wants* to slap together an NGE FAQ for the wiki or something that links to relevant threads, go for it.

* Being sufficiently irritated that such a thing does not yet exist is an acceptable alternative to actual desire in this case.

BlueBasilisk wrote:Kaworu doesn't 'get' Lilin, but how much of that stems from his personal experiences versus an actual inability? The Angels are solitary creatures by nature and even the human protagonists have trouble understanding other people. Could he learn with proper social interaction?

I would assume so. Least of all because Kaworu really can't be grouped in with Adam's other children -- he's what happened when a Lilin conceived a baby with Adam with the assistance of mad science. Depending on the specifics, Kaworu is genetically part or full Lilin!

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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:09 pm

The FoK isn't about emotion. Armi had emotions. I would even say Armi showed capable of understanding them via its interaction with Rei. Fundamentally I don't see a real difference between Kaworu and Armi besides Armi being a child and Kaworu having previous life experience to draw on to some degree.

To me the FoK about things like science and art. Things the Angels have no use for. Ramiel turned itself into a particle accelerator powered by a nuclear reactor, Iruel turned itself into the Andromeda Strain, Leliel turned itself into a Dirac Sea. What use do they have for particle or nuclear physics, computer programming, or multiverse theory? If they can imagine it they can make it happen. This leads to different ways of approaching things.

Kaworu's reaction towards music makes me think it's something he'd never think up if left to his own devices. He enjoys it, he thinks it's the greatest achievement of the Lilin, but it fascinates him because it's something beyond him. His reaction to the Evas is similar, he can't understand why Lilin would use something abhorrent to them. He doesn't understand the value of using science to use their enemies strength against them.

Additionally I would point out how Kaworu never once appears while the AATF is live. Why would this be other than his soul being incompatible?
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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:11 pm

Even making a list of topics which a FAQ could link to threads on would be a significant undertaking. It's generally easier to use the search facilities.
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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby Reichu » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:35 pm

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:Additionally I would point out how Kaworu never once appears while the AATF is live. Why would this be other than his soul being incompatible?

Kaworu appears before Gendo after Lilith spreads her AATF, and again before Shinji to enable his decision to let ATFs return (meaning, they had not returned yet, meaning the AATF was still active).

If you're going to claim that the ATF is only "live" (?) at the times when Kaworu isn't there, then you can claim just as easily that most other characters, including Yui(!), are "spiritually incompatible" with the thing. Which means... I'm not sure what, exactly, since all Lilith's AATF really is is her making her AATF so huge that all others get swallowed up by it. Being "compatible" was never really the point; being subjugated is.

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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:50 pm

I meant as part of the merged conglomerate, he always appears as an independent entity. And yes I would say at the end after Shinji pulled Rei out of him and everything turned blue the AATF was over hence Shinji separating from Rei. Nothing stoping them from continuing the discussion as disembodied souls until Shinji reassumes physical form.

I am counting both endings btw and I write Yui not being involved as a result of the FoL being absorbed. Rei is in a weird place because she's using Kaworu as a meat puppet for energy production instead of absorbing it directly.
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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby Kestrellius » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:38 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:You've got something of mine at the end of your post but it wasn't linked to my name or the post being responded to. I've fixed it this time, but for the future please make sure all quotes are properly attributed.


I didn't know that was important; sorry.

View Original PostReichu wrote:You'll probably also get more answers by combing through the archives, just FYI. These kinds of topics have been trotted out ad infinitum here, and based on the radio silence I assume most of the remaining regulars (myself included) are just too tired to do the entire thing over from scratch.


Hm. I guess I figured that if some sort of consensus had been reached on these topics, it would have ended up in the wiki -- and there's not much information there. I wasn't intending to ask questions so much as put forth an analysis and see if people could poke holes in it -- which they have. Nonetheless, your criticism stands. Should've used search first.
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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:19 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:The Evas lacking the Fruit of Knowledge doesn't make any sense, as far as I can see. Why would Eva-01 be the only one to have it? Consider, Lilin did not sprout directly from Lilith's body -- the process was very indirect. And yet all Lilin have the Fruit of Knowledge, somehow. What could the transmission method be other than soul-based? And if so, on what basis would souls lose their fruit upon being transferred into a new body? Can anyone envision any way that Lilith would have been able to give primitive humans souls with the Fruit of Knowledge if the fruit was so fragile it was abruptly lost when taken into a new body? There'd be no way for her to get it to us. Thus the Evas must have it.

This got me asking more questions. If LCL were to just sit out for a while, without being constantly pumped out from Lilith's pool into Entry Plugs, would new life grow from it? Is this what began happening in Shinji's Entry Plug when he was pulled into Leleil's Dirac Sea? If LCL is pure liquid life force, why did it cause Shinji to return to nothingness by soaking in it?
I've reached a point where I just generally don't give a fuck anymore. In a good way.

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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:52 pm

So I want to do some further elaboration now that I'm not in full OMG what is sleep mode.

I have long struggled to explain why Kaworu and Yui go MIA when Shinji is careening towards his disembodied mental breakdown that could threaten the extinction of the human race. To me they are far too important to Shinji to be written out for no reason and far too caring to be reduced to callous asshats that would think letting Shinji breakdown like that would be a good thing.

If you want to say it was because the plot demanded it I think that would be terrible writing.
If you want to say it was because of some convoluted plan I think there were far better way to handle it that don't involved letting such a thing happen, which amounts to gambling with everyones lives, and I don't believe they'd choose that route.
If you want to say they're just crazy and don't care, well I can't agree with that.

So I can only conclude they can't and I can only see 1 thing both have in common.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:57 pm

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:I would say at the end after Shinji pulled Rei out of him and everything turned blue the AATF was over hence Shinji separating from Rei.

It's depicted more as a process from what I can tell. When Kaworu shows up, he asks, "Is it okay for A.T. Fields to hurt you and others once more?" -- as if things haven't been completely reversed, and he's making absolutely sure this is what Shinji wants. When Shinji responds, "I don't mind", he is suddenly clothed, and so is Rei in the next shot. Clothes are symbolizing the ATF here, and it's fitting that Kaworu ushers in their reintroduction, since it was he who revealed to us that Lilin have ATFs too.

I am counting both endings btw and I write Yui not being involved

Yui does in fact talk during EoTV. (I don't mean just at the end.)

I mean, why these characters are barely present at certain points is an interesting question, but I have pretty strong doubts there is any any Fruit-based reason for it. I mean... weird omissions are par for the course in NGE. Why is Kaworu completely absent from EoTV but present in EoE? Why do most of the characters completely vanish from EoE in any meaningful way after HIP initiates (not even being present in the giant wall of voices)? Why are Yui, Kaworu, Gendo, and Fuyutsuki all missing from the photo of people Shinji wants to see again? Etc.

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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:58 pm

The biggest stumbling block to untangling the whole Fruits mess is the lack of a clear definition of the Fruit of Wisdom. We have a pretty strong implication that the Fruit of Life is connected to the S^2 Engine, based on the description of what that. Thing does and the fact that seems to be what Unit-01 is eating when she gains said fruit.

Admittedly there is something lost to people who don't have a strong grasp of Japanese and its use of words with slightly different connotations. The Japanese name for the Fruit of Life is "Seimei no Mi", and "Seimei" means life in the sense of biological life (in fact, it's also part of the word for life form, "seimeitai"), which makes sense given its implied ability to bestow biological immortality and infinite energy.

Meanwhile, the Japanese phrase for the Fruit of Knowledge is "Chie no Mi", and Chie means "wisdom" more than just general knowledge. With that understanding, the Fruit of Knowledge can be pretty clearly understood as being connected to higher reasoning abilities, as well as things life self-reflection. This is definitely in line with Gendo's assessment that science is mankind's weapon, since science refers to both a body of knowledge and a method by which to test the truth or falsehood of a belief.

This understanding brings a lot of the differences between Lilim and Angels into perspective. Most of the Angels seem to operate largely on instinct, with Sachiel being a great example of this. It's also the very reason Kaworu feels he has to die; he doesn't believe any cognitive process he has is enough to override his Angel instincts, and given the guy forget where SEELE told him Adam was in a relatively short amount of time he's probably right.

Meanwhile, Rei is quite frequently lost in her own head, with her bizarre inner monologue poem in the pilot exchange test being a really prominent example. Put in an idle situation her brain simply wanders, endlessly thinking even though it doesn't have anything to really analyze.

The Evas are a bit tricker to pin down, since the mechanical components added to them and the stuff taken out means they don't operate as normal organisms. However, it's worth noting Unit-01 is the only one confirmed to have the Fruit of Knowledge, and it's the only one made from Lilith. This is worth bringing up because its having both Fruits and therefore being something very special is a major plot point, and ties directly into the way SEELE intended to use it for Instrumentality. The Mass Production Evas all have S^2 Engines, and thus the Fruit of Life; if they had the Fruit of Knowledge as well, they alone would be sufficient for the Ritual.

This is what leads me to believe that the Fruits are hard-coded into the DNA of the Seeds, and that all being descended from them will have the fruit as well. It's simply false to assume only Homo Sapiens is the only Lilith-derived species with reasoning power; beings ranging from crocodiles to birds to dolphins have shown the capacity for it. We just happen to do it better than the rest doc them because our evolutionary focus has been on that?

But if the Fruit is hard coded, why don't the Evas have them? Again Unit-01 gives me an idea on the matter, because of its battle with Zeruel. Notice that in the past it was able to heal injuries to its head, but here it needed Zeruel's arm to reconstitute its own. It's not a conceit unique to Evangelion that beings with advanced healing factors can heal massive damage to a body part, but cannot replace a completely severed limb. That's also why Unit-02 needs external help to replace its arms and head. Unit-01 likely used AT Field hax to reshape the stray limb, possibly only realizing it could do so because of, you guessed it, the Fruit of Knowledge.

So my thinking is the Evas WOULD be born with the Fruits under normal circumstances, but because NERF and SEELE don't want them to have them, the process is blocked, forcing the Evas to obtain them externally. The whole issue with Unit-04 may stem either from attempts to modify the organ that didn't pan out, or simply a sloppy job putting it in, akin to loose wiring in an engine.

Now, does that mean Evas normally don't have EITHER fruit, as presented in the series? I'm not sure. The very fact the Evas are only ever presented in a form modified from their default biology makes it impossible to tell what a natural Eva should be like.

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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:26 am

Just as a note, in Japanese, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is called Chie no Ki -- literally "the Tree of Wisdom" -- so naturally its fruit will be called Chie no Mi. It's referring to the exact same Judeo-Christian concept despite the slightly different phrasing. That's not to say that NGE isn't riffing on that subtle distinction in some way, though (like how Shinseiki riffs on Souseiki, the Japanese term for Genesis).

The Kaworu-Rei example feels fraught. Kaworu is not really the same kind of being that Angels 3-16 are; rather, he is a physical fusion of Adam and an unknown Lilin into which Adam's soul was placed. Kaworu in his limited time is established as a very contemplative and philosophical person in a similar vein as Rei. I don't see any evidence that he is somehow "instinct-driven" in a way that Rei is not. Rei also fatalistically feels the pull of her true identity; and also like Kaworu, despite being unable to completely escape this destiny, she is able to make a choice within it.

"my thinking is the Evas WOULD be born with the Fruits under normal circumstances, but because NERF and SEELE don't want them to have them, the process is blocked" -- This doesn't quite work given the effort that's put into recovering an intact S2 engine from an Angel and installing it into an Eva. If they knew enough to BLOCK the organ's growth, then growing an Eva deliberately to have one would be simple. I think the more likely explanation here is that the Evas can't grow them because they don't get their souls from Adam.

Since you're using a term from Eva2, "Seeds", you accept as least some information from the game. About the Fruits being "hard-coded into the Seeds' DNA", the game suggests that the Fruits are intrinsically spiritual in nature. The phrasing used for a Seed partaking of its respective Fruit is that its SOUL ate it.

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Re: Okay, let's try to figure out how sapient entity types work.

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:46 am

Late as hell reply because life is stupid.

I se the term Seeds because it's easier to write out than "Adam and Lilith" and we have no other category name for just those two. Frankly I'm not sure how much of NGE2 I can take at face value since it contains ideas at odds with the show (if Keel and his cohorts wanted to become Gods there's no way they'd be happy with everyone being Tanged, and its largely at odds with their death cult lunacy).

I'm not surprised Chie is what's used for the Tree from Genesis, but either way the point was more to illustrate a nuance of the Japanese language that's not immediately obvious to non speakers even with Subtitles. After all, if you want to understand what the Fruit of Knowledge is in the context of the anime, details like that really help.

Kaworu has a philosophical side but he's also prone to making decisions without much forethought and he often doesn't question much about what's going on around him. He let SEELE play him like a fiddle, his decision to befriend Shinji is pretty abrupt and, once again, he forgets what SEELE told him about Adam and Gendo in record time. The Rebuilds even add to this by having him blue screen for over a minute the moment something doesn't fit his established knowledge because he lacks the ability to efficiently reason things out.

As for the whole spiritual thing, Evangelion never really establishes what a soul IS in their universe, and given the bizarre interplay of biological and spiritual terms in the show mean it's possible souls are at least partly biological in nature. After all, the idea of all souls coming from Lilith is automatically ruled out by the fact Gehirn went to C/Users/Lilith/Guf and got This Folder is Empty. The only possible place newly born life can get souls from is their parents, meaning that a soul is essentially genetic information.


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