What are the "Adams"?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

Moderators: New Moderators, Board Staff

ArvisTaljik
Adam
User avatar
Posts: 60
Joined: Sep 16, 2017
Location: Tampa, FL
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: What are the "Adams"?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ArvisTaljik » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:11 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:In that case, "Eva" and "Adam" are basically the same thing. 13 is -- in the same way presumably 01 and 06 are -- an Adam that was repurposed into an Eva. It's speculated currently that 01, 06, and 13 were three Adams whose bodies remained intact after Second Impact, just in a sort of "burnt-out" state that requires the power of an Angel in order to be restored to its former glory. The fourth Adam may have been mostly lost, in a similar manner as the original Adam from NGE, the Key of Nebuchadnezzar being all that remains of it.


I guess what people consider "awakened" must differ because it looks to me like Unit 01 awakens in 2.0 purely based on Shinji's will alone. This is based upon the Gate of Guf (red rings) opening prior to Shinji pulling Rei out of Zeruel's core and subsequent core absorbtion.

If we're counting Bardiel as the absorbed angel within Unit 01, then the question becomes why didn't it awaken immediately upon it (Dummy Plug) deciding to eat Bardiel/Unit 03? By contrast, Unit 13 seems to fully awaken immediately after chowing down on the 12th Angel's core.
peace: /piːs/
noun: a condition attained through the decisive employment of superior firepower

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
Posts: 22922
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: 南川
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: What are the "Adams"?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:52 am

It's easy to miss, but Eva-01 absorbs an Angel at the end of Ha:

(1) Eva-01 pulls Eva-00's core out of the 10th Angel's core.
(2) 10th Angel's core ruptures.
(3) 10th Angel turns into LCL.
(4) The LCL reforms into a giant LCL Rei around Eva-00's core.
(5) The LCL Rei / Core combo fuse into Eva-01.

Resulting in:

(6) Eva-01 becomes a Radiant Giant.

Now, true that there is a Rei/Lilith element present -- but this is the case for Eva-13 as well. The 12th Angel is sloshing around in (quite possibly absorbing) Lilith's LCL, and it takes on Rei's form as well.

You're correct that Eva-01 technically begins the process of awakening when it reactivates. We won't know until the Q CRC comes out when exactly Eva-13 began the process (i.e., if it goes straight to fully pseudoevolved immediately upon eating the 12th, or if Shinji "possessing" it before that counts as the first stage).

ArvisTaljik
Adam
User avatar
Posts: 60
Joined: Sep 16, 2017
Location: Tampa, FL
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: What are the "Adams"?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ArvisTaljik » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:36 pm

Reichu wrote:You're correct that Eva-01 technically begins the process of awakening when it reactivates. We won't know until the Q CRC comes out when exactly Eva-13 began the process (i.e., if it goes straight to fully pseudoevolved immediately upon eating the 12th, or if Shinji "possessing" it before that counts as the first stage).


I'd say it's more likely that Shinji himself is the initial impetus for the awakenings for two reasons:
  • (1) Shinji's will seemed to be the only thing required for Unit 01 to open the Gates of Guf BEFORE Zeruel's core was ever absorbed and
  • (2) This seems to fit better with how the entirety of the Wunder treats him in Q, in that they believe he himself is a danger because of what he's capable of by himself.

Yay/nay? Does this make sense?
peace: /piːs/
noun: a condition attained through the decisive employment of superior firepower

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
Posts: 22922
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: 南川
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: What are the "Adams"?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:49 pm

Oh, no doubt about it, Shinji himself is capable of triggering Evas into an awakened state. He's called an Impact trigger for a reason.

But to go back to my earlier point: Shinji by himself isn't capable of restoring an Adam!Eva to its Radiant Giant state. Absorbing an Angel is required for that. I'm unclear what part Lilith's "factor" plays in things, so, setting that aside, the following explanation is possible:

We saw that, at Second Impact, the Adams were all in Radiant Giant state. Something happened involving the Spears to stop or suspend Second Impact. Three of the Adams seem to have physically survived, albeit in a "burnt out" state; but they are capable of "pseudoevolving" back into Radiant Giant form via a combination of (A) having the right soul linked to their core via entry plug, and (B) absorbing an Angel, a being with the Fruit of Life. (B) seems to indicate that the Adams lost their Fruits of Life somehow, and are able to get them back from Angels. What about the soul part, though? It's been suspected for some time that the Eva pilots (minus Rei) actually have the Adams' souls. With Kaworu, this is practically a certainty, because, well, Kaworu; but Shinji's weird "Impact trigger" status can be readily explained if he has an Adam's soul. It's quite possible that the same holds for Asuka and Mari, and that they must also wear chokers because of it. (A production illustration by Yamashita shows Asuka, at least, clearly wearing a collar of some sort.)

The final piece of the puzzle here is the Adams' Vessels. Eva Mark.09 is, according to its full designation, only one of them -- iow, there are others that have existed or still do exist. "Vessel" is utsuwa, which means "container". The only other time (that I know of) that this term is used in NTE is in the Explanation of Eva 1.01, where the entry plug is termed the "Vessel for a Soul" (that of the pilot's). Mark.09's true form is that of a polymorphic core, and cores are things that contain souls. You can maybe see where this is going. The Adams' Vessels are probably the disembodied cores of the Adams, separated from their bodies in order to bring Second Impact to an end. This would have separated the Adams' bodies from both their souls and their Fruits of Life, explaining why they need to regain both in order to be "repowered". This also means that the Adams' Vessels and the Vessels for Souls (= Entry Plugs) are different containers for the same things.

Asuka'sBigBrother
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Age: 17
Posts: 363
Joined: Oct 20, 2017
Location: Nueva Yorke
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:47 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:No more a slap on the wrist than those American kids who watch some anime and feel like popping random words of Japanese in their speech is cool.

It's not.

I use baka in my speech, whatchu gonna do bout it.
Just a big bro looking out for sistah

Mess with this crew, and I'll give you a blister

Gendo'sPapa
First Ancestor
First Ancestor
User avatar
Posts: 4479
Joined: Oct 24, 2006
Location: Everywhere
Gender: Male

Re: What are the "Adams"?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:21 am

Ignore you?

I don't know. I mean that post is almost a decade old.

ACGT-Samael
Adam
User avatar
Age: 25
Posts: 57
Joined: Mar 16, 2018
Location: Canada
Gender: Male

Re: What are the "Adams"?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ACGT-Samael » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:08 pm

This is something of a bizarre and far fetched theory I had, but it would be interesting if true.

We know from 3.33 that Impacts work very differently from the version shown in NGE, and act as a form of artificial evolution bringing humans up to a higher level of existence, which are imitations of the being who began the Impact. We also know Third Impact was interrupted in some fashion, since Asuka speaks of it resuming. The Adams are also implied to function differently from Angels or other Evas by not having AT Fields.

What if the Adams are members of the Katsuragi Expedition transformed into copies of an "original" Adam that actually started the Impact, and the process somehow either robbed them of their souls or the very act of being homogenized robbed them of their AT Fields. This could be why Angels and most Evas have them but Adams as Evas don't - the original had a soul, but the doppelgängers do not.

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
Posts: 22922
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: 南川
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: What are the "Adams"?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:37 pm

There are those pesky Vessels of the Adams (implied to be more than one) to take into account. I think they, being completely core beings with a name like that, were probably at one point the Adams' cores. The Spears perhaps stopped 2I by separating the Adams from their cores or something. This safely sequesters both the soul and the Fruit of Life away from the body, keeping anything apocalyptic from happening. Nerv finds all three components later (Adams body, Adams core, Spear) and does mad science. As a sicko, I'm hoping that Shinji, Asuka, and Mari are all the result of deranged moms letting Nerv implant their embryonic babies with alien souls (if it wasn't their own idea to begin with). Kaworu, unlike the other three, would maintain a direct link to the Adams by being born straight from one of them.

I'm also expecting the Angels to be transformed members of the Katsuragi Expedition. This might be implied by the Mark.04s -- tons of Angel-like things (with cores and everything) associated by name with a site where an Impact-like event swallowed up plenty of people. It would maintain the "Angels were human all along!" element while streamlining the lore, since I have a sinking feeling that the "children of two creator gods fighting for dominance over Earth" narrative is very, very gone.

BlueBasilisk
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 1233
Joined: Nov 14, 2010
Gender: Male

Re: What are the "Adams"?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BlueBasilisk » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:13 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:There are those pesky Vessels of the Adams (implied to be more than one) to take into account. I think they, being completely core beings with a name like that, were probably at one point the Adams' cores. The Spears perhaps stopped 2I by separating the Adams from their cores or something. This safely sequesters both the soul and the Fruit of Life away from the body, keeping anything apocalyptic from happening. Nerv finds all three components later (Adams body, Adams core, Spear) and does mad science. As a sicko, I'm hoping that Shinji, Asuka, and Mari are all the result of deranged moms letting Nerv implant their embryonic babies with alien souls (if it wasn't their own idea to begin with). Kaworu, unlike the other three, would maintain a direct link to the Adams by being born straight from one of them.

I'm also expecting the Angels to be transformed members of the Katsuragi Expedition. This might be implied by the Mark.04s -- tons of Angel-like things (with cores and everything) associated by name with a site where an Impact-like event swallowed up plenty of people. It would maintain the "Angels were human all along!" element while streamlining the lore, since I have a sinking feeling that the "children of two creator gods fighting for dominance over Earth" narrative is very, very gone.

I'm also a proponent of the Children = Adams theory. :tongue: We have 5 children (technically 6 counting Rei Q) and 5 giants, and it's hard to believe that's just a coincidence, especially since we know the Reis are part of Lilith in some respect. It does strike me as odd that Asuka and Mari don't seem to be considered possible Impact Triggers while Shinji is, but there could be other circumstances to explain that, such as them being in the know on the dirty secrets of Eva and therefore not willing or stupid enough to be tricked into doing it, or because they're piloting vanilla Evangelions which don't seem to be able to awaken to the same extent as their Adam-based counterparts. Nobody seemed concerned about the fused Unit 03 potentially awakening, for example.

Do you suppose the Adams could have originally been some type of core beings, and whatever happened at 2nd Impact reduced them to a more "normal" form? Whenever the awakened Unit 01 is roused from its dormant state, it seems to radiate that core erosion effect like crazy, yet when it's sleeping, it's safe enough that Wille can poke around inside it. Unit 13 also did some of that, and come to think of it, Mark.09 looked like a meatbag with blood and teeth and whatnot until Seele's voodoo program kicked in, then it was all core with a core. Is core-state something they can turn on and off? :???:

What makes the Vessel's position in all of this so difficult to understand is that "Wunder's Original Master" business. It being a ship of some kind for the Adams would make sense, but then how is the Vessel able to override Unit 01's control on the ship when it is an Adam? Is it because it's not awake?
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!

ACGT-Samael
Adam
User avatar
Age: 25
Posts: 57
Joined: Mar 16, 2018
Location: Canada
Gender: Male

Re: What are the "Adams"?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ACGT-Samael » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:35 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:What makes the Vessel's position in all of this so difficult to understand is that "Wunder's Original Master" business. It being a ship of some kind for the Adams would make sense, but then how is the Vessel able to override Unit 01's control on the ship when it is an Adam? Is it because it's not awake?



Hear me out on this. The "original" Adam was the core of the Wunder, using its S2 Engine as the power source, and Mark 09 is made from the core of that original Adam. Eva 01 would thus be one of the transformed individuals, so while it's capable of powering the ship Mark 09 would still be part of its former owner.
Last edited by ACGT-Samael on Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
Posts: 22922
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: 南川
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: What are the "Adams"?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:04 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:It does strike me as odd that Asuka and Mari don't seem to be considered possible Impact Triggers while Shinji is

This doesn't make sense to me either. We still haven't seen them without their plugsuits on. I'm hoping this is a reveal in the next movie. After all the moaning and bitching about Misato strapping a bomb to Shinji's neck... Imagine Asuka telling Shinji that she woke up with a bomb collar too. "Stupid brat..." :devil: But if it's not the case, there could be things to explain it, like you suggested.

Do you suppose the Adams could have originally been some type of core beings (snip)

I would assume not, if the "Vessels" business is to be in any way meaningful. (And I honestly can't think of what else its significance could possibly be, especially with the implication from Mark.09's full designation that it's not the only one.) That said, I have no real idea where NTE is going with this idea of cores not actually being CORES (as in a nucleus) but the WHOLE THING. It's rather needlessly confusing at the moment. (Doesn't really help that LCL is red now, introducing the possibility that "core" is nothing more than one possible solidified form that LCL can take...)

What makes the Vessel's position in all of this so difficult to understand is that "Wunder's Original Master" business. It being a ship of some kind for the Adams would make sense, but then how is the Vessel able to override Unit 01's control on the ship when it is an Adam? Is it because it's not awake?

So we have the following:

(A) Eva-01 is capable of being the Wunder's control system
(B) Eva-01 probably has an Adam's body, but surely not the original core
(C) Vessel might be an Adams' original core
(D) Vessel is "Wunder's original master"
(E) Vessel can take control of Wunder from Eva-01

So the Wunder might be keyed into the Adams' cores first and their bodies second? Maybe? Not sure I totally like this idea, but maybe it can spur on something better.

ACGT-Samael wrote:The "original" Adam was the core of the Wunder

The Wunder's so-called master is referred to as a Vessel of the Adams, though. I'm not sure I'm comfortable assuming there is an "original" Adam at the moment. The only reason to even think this is because of the original show, which has no bearing here. There are four Adams now, and one Spear to go with each.

BlueBasilisk
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 1233
Joined: Nov 14, 2010
Gender: Male

Re: What are the "Adams"?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BlueBasilisk » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:42 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:This doesn't make sense to me either. We still haven't seen them without their plugsuits on. I'm hoping this is a reveal in the next movie. After all the moaning and bitching about Misato strapping a bomb to Shinji's neck... Imagine Asuka telling Shinji that she woke up with a bomb collar too. "Stupid brat..." :devil: But if it's not the case, there could be things to explain it, like you suggested.

I'd like that too. You did mention that drawing by Yamashita from 2010 that shows Mari and Asuka both wearing collars so it seems like they at least kicked the idea around at some stage of production. And Kaworu did say it was made for him (dubious as his narrative credit is) so it's not like it's something made just for Shinji in the context of the movie

That said, I have no real idea where NTE is going with this idea of cores not actually being CORES (as in a nucleus) but the WHOLE THING. It's rather needlessly confusing at the moment. (Doesn't really help that LCL is red now, introducing the possibility that "core" is nothing more than one possible solidified form that LCL can take...)


That could be possible. We don't see full-core entities pop up until late in the game, so I wonder... What if they're artificially engineered to be that way? Consider what we've seen:

1) The 12th Angel, which is made up of these peculiar hexagonal prisms that are made of core. It has an oddly manufactured look with all the pieces being so uniform like that (granted, so did the 7th Angel), and with Seele conducting experiments of that nature it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility that they might have constructed or modified an Angel to fit their end game scenarios.

2) The Vessel of the Adams, which has been modified by Seele in some way. I think I pointed this out in my Eva Anatomy thread, but when it regenerates from Asuka's attack, it looks like a bunch of small cores mashed tightly together in a human shape. That could also just be an effect though.

3) The Mark.04s and their core blocks. They seem to be entirely artificial beings.

4) The Failures of Infinity, which were created as part of Third Impact.

This idea of a full-core being doesn't appear until 3.0. There was nothing like that in either of the two prior movies except maybe the Giant Red Rei, so I wonder if it's not a result of Seele's meddling and research rather than a "natural" occurrence. All of those beings seem to link back to them in some way or other. I'll admit the 12th Angel feels like a dubious connection and I'm just spitballing that it might have been modified or manufactured.

So we have the following:

(A) Eva-01 is capable of being the Wunder's control system
(B) Eva-01 probably has an Adam's body, but surely not the original core
(C) Vessel might be an Adams' original core
(D) Vessel is "Wunder's original master"
(E) Vessel can take control of Wunder from Eva-01

So the Wunder might be keyed into the Adams' cores first and their bodies second? Maybe? Not sure I totally like this idea, but maybe it can spur on something better.


What if it works like an Evangelion? One of the Adams is a "designated pilot," so the others can control it as we see with Unit 01 but this particular one has special priority status to override the others. Seele clearly had it there to counter the Wunder during their final play, I think, as there was nothing about the previous events that required the Vessel's unique skills and powers. But it also seems like the Vessel can only access the full extent of its powers under certain circumstances, because it only unleashes its true power after Unit 13 awakens and there was no reason for Seele not to take advantage of its superior firepower during the battle in Central Dogma to ensure their victory, or to bring down Wunder at any point before the battle started so it wouldn't even be a factor.

I expect the answer is actually pretty simple and hinges entirely on some unrevealed piece of information we couldn't possibly guess to tie it all together. :lol:
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!

ACGT-Samael
Adam
User avatar
Age: 25
Posts: 57
Joined: Mar 16, 2018
Location: Canada
Gender: Male

Re: What are the "Adams"?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ACGT-Samael » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:04 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:
The Wunder's so-called master is referred to as a Vessel of the Adams, though. I'm not sure I'm comfortable assuming there is an "original" Adam at the moment. The only reason to even think this is because of the original show, which has no bearing here. There are four Adams now, and one Spear to go with each.


Anno's entire modus operandi is that his works are puzzles to be solved, with the whole I Need You business from End of Evangelion being the classic example. Given his pattern of embedding answers in different places than the original scene, I'm led to believe the answer to what the Adams are is somewhere in the series, and all the business with the Failures of Infinity is so blatant and so central to the imagery of the Third and Fourth Impacts for me to not conclude it's relevant to the Mystery of the Adams in some way.

Basically, if the Adams can turn humans into copies of themselves, and the Katsuragi Expedition were at ground zero, it's too tempting not to think the same thing happened to them.

Reichu
Space-Time Teratoma
Space-Time Teratoma
Posts: 22922
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: 南川
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re: What are the "Adams"?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:15 pm

If members of the KatsExp were turned into Adams via Second Impact, shouldn't this be evidenced in the orbital view of 2I? That is, if more Adams are created AS A RESULT of the Impact, they thus can't be there to initiate it. However, what we see instead is four pairs of wings simultaneously extending from the epicenter. Also note that Misato and her father are able to see this at all. The Adams have entered Radiant Giant mode, similar to Eva-01 at the end of Ha, but they haven't turned the place into a death zone just yet. If the Impact had already proceeded to the point that it was transforming organisms, how in the world could the Katsuragis be there to see actual results?

Each Adam is paired with a Spear (three Longinius, one Cassius), furthermore. Where did these come from? Are the Katsuragi Team also responsible for those? Unlike NGE, we're given no indication that Spears can be created using human technology. The closest thing is Eva-05's Spear, but even that's called a pseudo-reconstruction. (Being smaller than a normal Spear, I assume "pseudo" is because it wasn't actually reconstructed; they just turned whatever biomass survived the Impact into a more compact weapon.)

Second Impact is also in the position already of needing to explain where the Angels came from. I mean, if that's not their origin, then what the heck is? Does Second Impact really need to be the origin story for two sets of beings?

It's an interesting alternative, but for every possible benefit of going that route I spy a wrench getting caught in the gears as well.

Settie
Adam
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 96
Joined: Mar 17, 2017
Location: The deep south
Gender: Male

Re: What are the "Adams"?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Settie » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:15 pm

Right now i'm into the idea that the Wunder is itself an Adams. Now i know it sounds silly given that it's a giant ship but angelic entities have shown a certain...elasticity with their body shape. Zeruel grew a Rei body, Unit-1 was evolving into something different at the end of 2.0, Unit-13 grew those spikes/pylon thingies when it went into awakened mode, Mark-6 grew huge during 3i, then there's Unit-2 turning into a giant cat monster.

Given that the Wunders wings aren't bird-like at all but more reminiscent of stretched out human hands and that the "vessel" of the Adams was its original master. It makes sense if the mark-9 was the core of the Wunder that somehow got removed and another Adam was used to power it and control it (going with the assumption that Unit-1 is indeed an Adams). It also gives the Mark-9 finding the Wunder some new perspective. If the core of an angelic entity houses its soul/sentience, then the Mark-9 being able in some way to track its body is an answer to how quickly the Wunder was found. Sure it's a big ship but the sky is a big ass place to search.

BlueBasilisk
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 1233
Joined: Nov 14, 2010
Gender: Male

Re: What are the "Adams"?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BlueBasilisk » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:12 pm

Perhaps our theories just aren't crazypants enough to figure out what the Adams actually are. I feel like we're still trying to make things fit into an Adam-shaped hole because of NGE.

We really don't even know what happened during Second Impact. Why were humans in Antarctica in the first place? We know Misato and her dad were there but there isn't any hint as to what they were doing there or what kind of research/experiments they might have been conducting. Heck, we don't even know if there was a Katsuragi Expedition or if it was some kind of already established outpost or something else entirely.

We don't know what the Adams were doing there either. NGE told us around episode 7 that humanity found Adam in Antarctica, and we later found out that it had been buried there for a long time. But as far as I can tell there's nothing indicating how long the four Adams were down there. It's certainly possible that they were buried down there for eons like their predecessor, but isn't it also possible that they had just arrived in 1999 or 2002 or whenever the hell Second Impact happened in the film continuity, and that the events in Antarctica could have been part of some kind of First Contact?

The explanation that makes the most sense to me is that the Adams are outside interlopers who aren't supposed to be here at all. They're aliens who came here from somewhere else, possibly on board the Wunder. It handily explains why they aren't numbered among the Angels and why they seem to be in the "apocrypha" of the Dead Sea Scrolls and get amended into the scenario by Seele. Seele being...whatever they are makes this scenario seem at least a little less implausible. But why come to Earth at all? Is it like that goofy story Reichu found in Rei's Eva 2 scenario and they came to Earth to get the Fruit of Knowledge? :???:

The Angels are a real puzzle too. Misato holds them responsible for Second Impact and that seems like it might be the story that the Nerv staff are told but I don't think there's any confirmation from Gendo/Fuyutsuki or Seele that they were. The dialogue from episode 1 indicating that the Angels had appeared 15 years prior is absent in 1.0. Instead Gendo tells us that they exist solely to destroy beings who ate the FoK. They don't seem too crazy about the Adams either. The 12th Angel ate one of them and made a beeline straight for Unit 13 after escaping, ignoring the other two Evas nearby, and multiple Angels attempted to destroy Unit 01.

Kaworu acts like he's been around for a while, but how the heck did humanity first come into contact with him and what was he doing before that? The deeper I dig into this stuff the more it makes my head spin. :|
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!

Sachi
Oh Daddy!
Oh Daddy!
User avatar
Age: 24
Posts: 10008
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Location: Hollywoo
Gender: Male

Re: What are the "Adams"?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sachi » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:20 pm

I've touched upon this in various threads before, however I've never quite presented my full idea regarding this here on the forums. This seems like a convenient time to attempt to do so.

To put it simply, I believe that the story this time around is taking pointers from William Blake's mythology.

The first, most relevant point I have to this discussion is Blake's concept of Albion. An archetype very much in the same vein as Adam Kadmon, a concept familiar to the NGE franchise, Albion is the primordial man of Blake's mythology. Specifically, Albion's fall results in his division into what are known as the "Four Zoas". If we translate this concept back into Evangelion's lore, we might surmise there was an original "Adam" that was divided into the four Adams. Whether this "original Adam" is similar to the Adam of NGE, or a different concept entirely, who knows.

This isn't where the Blake comparisons end. It first caught my eye when I was doing investigations for the Key of Nebuchadnezzar when I stumbled upon one of Blake's famous paintings, titled Nebuchadnezzar. The pose depicted by Nebuchadnezzar in the painting, which displays his madness and loss of humanity, bears an uncanny resemblance to the state Lilith's corpse is found in 3.33.

SPOILER: Show
Image


On top of that, I shouldn't have to point out that the name of the painting is also the name of the mysterious key that has yet to reveal its purpose: the Key of Nebuchadnezzar. We already know that the Key of Nebby has basically replaced the role of the original Adam embryo as Gendo's secret trump card, but the Adam comparisons don't end there, nor do the Blake comparisons. Several years back, a user pointed out the similarities between another Blake painting and the Key of Nebby, notably the four rings that depict the relationship of the Four Zoas (mentioned earlier). The Key of Nebby similarly has four rings, the fourth being at the bottom of the syringe where the "body" is attached.

sorry for the blurry image  SPOILER: Show
Image


With this in mind, my current theory regarding the Key of Nebby is that it is in fact the fourth Adam that has yet to be revealed (the others being Unit-01, Mark 06, and Unit-13).

As for the implications of four Adams in the first place and why this all ties into Blake, I can't say for sure. It's even possible there's more comparisons to his work that I've overlooked. One theory that I've entertained is that the four Adams/Zoas must eventually reunite to once again form Adam Kadmon/Albion. Unit-13 and Mark 06 have already combined, and Gendo also already has the Key of Nebby, so Unit-01 seems like it would be a natural target of his in the next film (and also because Yui). Is this what Gendo is after? Is recreating the primordial man out of the Adams part of "the inevitable deicide" that he promised to complete?

(edit: this is my 10,000th post! :gendo_kimura: )
- Sachi

I host the unofficial EGF discord server. Join us! https://discord.gg/WqS7wRW
I also host a more general nerdy server for various fandoms: https://discord.gg/wWYPwjb

DarkBluePhoenix
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 1169
Joined: Aug 01, 2016
Location: Awakening
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: What are the "Adams"?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:16 pm

^ Wow, that's given me a lot to process. It's interesting to think the act of "Adam" falling split him into four beings of light, but based on your findings, this has merit. Oh perhaps whatever tests were done in Antartica on Adam caused him to split and create the four. That would lend credence to shy Mark.06 is on the Moon in the red streak, where the explosion on the planet flung that particular one into space Now I've never thought about the fact that the Key of Nebuchadnezzar is called a key, but it is interesting to note that it is a literal key to to unlock instrumentality. But my question is, do all four entities (Unit-01, Mark.06, and Unit-13 need to be present in order to be recombined to start instrumentality? We can presume Unit-13 is intact, and we know Unit-01 is alright, but what about Mark.06? Wasn't it destroyed by the 12th Angel?
Also, congrats on your 10,000th post :asuka_thumbsup:
Avatar - Heero Yuy, pilot of Wing Gundam Zero. If you want to read my NGE fanfic go to my profile here - DarkBluePhoenix on FanFiction.net or DarkBluePhoenix on AO3

Voted in college to be Most likely to Take Over the World, how to do that however, will require at least Four Evangelions. Thanks for the idea Misato-san!
"Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." Said at the beginning of the nuclear age by J. Robert Oppenheimer.
"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." Words of Wisdom from German Philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche.

BlueBasilisk
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 1233
Joined: Nov 14, 2010
Gender: Male

Re: What are the "Adams"?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BlueBasilisk » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:54 am

^One appears to be enough. Seele was going to enact Instrumentality with only The True Evangelion (13) and the Mark.09. That might not apply to what Gendo is doing as he woke Unit 13 in opposition to Seele's designs.

Our library had a few books about Blake, so I decided to pick up The Book of Urizen and a critical analysis of his works. A thing that immediately jumped out at me was the marriage between Vala and the restored Albion allowing for the unity of the mortal and the divine. Now where have I heard that before? :emogendo: I also noticed that Urizen seems rather similar to Gendo in his need to control.

View Original PostSachi wrote:The first, most relevant point I have to this discussion is Blake's concept of Albion. An archetype very much in the same vein as Adam Kadmon, a concept familiar to the NGE franchise, Albion is the primordial man of Blake's mythology. Specifically, Albion's fall results in his division into what are known as the "Four Zoas". If we translate this concept back into Evangelion's lore, we might surmise there was an original "Adam" that was divided into the four Adams. Whether this "original Adam" is similar to the Adam of NGE, or a different concept entirely, who knows.

In addition, Albion also has 12 warrior sons and 12 daughters. 4 Zoas, 12 children of each gender. That would certainly be an odd coincidence, wouldn't it?

Congratulations on 10,000 posts too! ^_^

Edit: Slowly making my way through Blake's poems, and by god am I grateful for the added analysis in these books, because they are dense mindfucks. :lol: But I've noticed that even though Albion 'fell' and split into the four Zoas, he still seems to exist independently of them and shows up alongside them in certain poems. But he and his Emanation Jerusalem simultaneously exist as people and the locations that share their names so I have no idea what to make of that.

But Albion's situation seems very similar to the original Lilith's: She is the original giant, has an Emanation in Unit 01, is 'divided' further as the Ayanamis, and has her children in the Lilin. So there is precedent in the franchise for something like this happening to a hypothetical 'Adam Prime.' The four Adams could be to it as Unit 01 was to Lilith. This explanation could easily make sense of the Adam(s)/Angels situation.

The problem is that it doesn't account for the extra Spears or the Vessel. If there was just one Adam originally, shouldn't there just be one or two Spears? Of course with four Adams and Lilith we still might be short one...It's possible the Spear might have likewise divided itself but there's still either one missing Longinus or one Spear randomly changing type. We have conflicting information on this anyway as Misato's flashback clearly shows 3 Longinus + 1 Cassius while the image of those Adam-like creatures in Until You Come To Me shows all four having spiral shafts like Longinus. There's always something that doesn't fit. :um:

I like the Blakeian approach of four-that-were-one as we see this idea of unity to create something greater popping up again and again in the movies and I don't like keeping the theory as simple as possible without adding extra speculative elements. So how do we get this theory to fit with the troublesome facts?

I wonder...the illustration at the top of the Khara twitter shows that multi-armed multi-winged beastie wielding some of the spears. It could just be a neat visual like that Angel symbol in the original OP, but COULD something that be the hypothetical original being? Kaworu says you need a soul per spear but that's not necessarily true considering the source. A giant body like that could even explain where Wunder came from.
Someday I hope that we'll be reunited if that is what's destined to be. Perhaps we'll discover that elusive bible. And then we will finally be free!


Return to “Rebuild of Evangelion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests