If Shinji commits suicide...

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Re: If Shinji commits suicide...

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:26 am

It would be interesting, giving Rei, Asuka and Misato a lot of character agency (by pulling then out of the center, that is Shinji) and well, just to see the ripples in the plot.

But I think it is improbable to Anno to do it, sadly enough.

Poor boy needs a rest.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:32 pm

View Original PostLt Light Ark wrote:It would be interesting, giving Rei, Asuka and Misato a lot of character agency (by pulling then out of the center, that is Shinji) and well, just to see the ripples in the plot.

But I think it is improbable to Anno to do it, sadly enough.

Poor boy needs a rest.

Yeah, after all the shit he's been through, usually at the hands of others, I think that Shinji is wanting nothing more than put an end to it. His suffering, his sorrows, everything else that people are putting him though; he would want it all to end.

And I think it would be interesting to see how it would effect the others, as mentioned before, whether positive or negative.

Maybe he'll start the final impact much like he did in EoE, with him saying, "Nobody cares about me, so they can all just die!".
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Postby Blockio » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:57 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Like what?

Probably too offtopic (which is why I will keep it at that in this thread and wont go any furcther with it), but to me it always felt like Shinji wouldnt have re-joined NERV if someone sat down and actually told him what happened in the last 14 years and how NERV is responsible for it. I mean, he literally doensnt even know that WILLE isnt NERV until he is Mark.09 attacks the Wunder
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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:42 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:...How do you think it would impact the series, as well as the cast?

I have a feeling that when Shinji gets back aboard the Wunder, it will not end well for him. He'll most likely be sentenced to solitary confinement, and the crew, especially Misato or Asuka, will no doubt be hasher to him than ever before. It will only be a matter of time before he can no longer take the cruel treatment everyone is giving him, quite possibly leading him to commit suicide.

How do you think that would impact everyone?

I honestly don't think it would effect anyone that deeply. People blame him for the condition the world is in, so his death would seem "deserved" to many. Sakura would probably have some feeling, but she didn't know him, she only heard stories about him. Misato may feel a pang, and Asuka, we don't know enough about Shikinami to gauge her reaction, but if he offs himself, she (and many others) may view it as admittance of his guilt.
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Postby Lennik » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:51 pm

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:Misato may feel a pang, and Asuka, we don't know enough about Shikinami to gauge her reaction, but if he offs himself, she (and many others) may view it as admittance of his guilt.


I don't think there's much evidence in 3.0 to support this statement. They finally get him back after all these years and think he's now safe aboard the Wunder, and then he kills himself, and they barely care?

Nah. Not consistent with what we saw of their reactions to him in the movie.

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:59 pm

Then why didn't someone give him a damn hug?
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Postby kuribo-04 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:33 pm

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:Then why didn't someone give him a damn hug?

It seems the entire Wunder staff are kind of disillusioned. I don't think they would have reacted too differently to any other person.
The leader of a group kind of sets the morale a feel, and Misato is very serious in 3.0.
They werre like that before Shinji arrived I'm sure.
I think Misato is also hurt when Shinji wants to leave. Something I get from her voice.
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:49 pm

We do see scenes of them being like that when Shinji's not around. Misato is always very stern while on the bridge, Maya rails on her staff for whining and not getting their asses to their battle stations, and Asuka is always squabbling with Mari over some thing or other. They're very tightly wound.

DarkBluePhoenix wrote:People blame him for the condition the world is in, so his death would seem "deserved" to many.

Who besides Kaworu actually does this? Wille's issue (per Ritsuko) is that he re-awakened Unit 01 during Operation US which means he's still a potential trigger for NERV to use and Asuka's mad at him for her own personal reasons. The closest example I can think of is Asuka asking if he wants to cause another 3rd Impact, but the statement is later clarified when she says she's going to kill the 12th Angel before 3rd Impact can start again.
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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:25 pm

I understand they're disillusioned. They've lived in 14 years of hell because of Third Impact, the second Impact Event in Misato's lifetime, who is cold and unforgiving as opposed to her semi-carefree attitude. Hell, anyone would be prone to be an absolute jerk if exposed to an environment like that. That being said, if they cre for HSinji the way they said and we assume they did, they woudn't have put him in the DSS choker. They would have begun explaining things, starting with "we're not with NERV because your father is an evil son of a bitch, we're WILLE and we're trying to stop NERV from initiating a Fourth Impact." Had they done that in the time beofre the attack, then Shinji would not nessissarily have left.

kuribo-04 wrote:I think Misato is also hurt when Shinji wants to leave. Something I get from her voice.

Why would he stay? He was told not to help, locked up, and had a bomb strapped to his neck. Would you stay with these people, even if they were supposedly your friends, or even people you consider to be your family? Obviously she's not seeing that she's partially to blame for his wanting to scarper.

BlueBasilisk wrote:Who besides Kaworu actually does this? Wille's issue (per Ritsuko) is that he re-awakened Unit 01 during Operation US which means he's still a potential trigger for NERV to use and Asuka's mad at him for her own personal reasons. The closest example I can think of is Asuka asking if he wants to cause another 3rd Impact, but the statement is later clarified when she says she's going to kill the 12th Angel before 3rd Impact can start again.

They say the DSS choker is his punishment, and offer not further explanation ignoring his questions and giving him absolutely to go on. They clearly blame him for the condition the world is in if he's being punished.
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:48 pm

No, Ritsuko answers his question. Here's the exchange from the funimation subs. I noticed the dub altered some dialogue that changes the context of the conversation a bit, so I compared these to Github and UTW-Thora's translations and they're essentially the same.

SPOILER: Show
R: Also, the results of your deep synchronization tests have come in. Your synchronization rate was 0.000%. Even if you boarded an Eva, it wouldn't activate. [...]That said, we cannot ignore that you recently had Unit 01 awakened for 12 seconds. For this reason, you have been fitted with a DSS choker.

S: What is it?

R: Our insurance policy. A physical failsafe device meant to prevent any further awakenings. It symbolizes our distrust of you, as well as your punishment.

S: What are you talking about?

R: If you allow your emotions to overwhelm you while piloting an Eva and the risk of another awakening becomes real, we will shut it down through the loss of your life.


Ritsuko makes it clear that he's being punished with the DSS Choker specifically because of that earlier awakening. If they were blaming him for the state of the world there's no reason for them to be cagey about it here when they've made it clear that they'll kill him if they have to to prevent another awakening and show archive footage of Unit 01 from the time of Near-Third Impact in their debriefing footage. Or later on when Asuka is ripping him a new one while trying to get him to stand down, or even at the ending when Asuka's reading him the riot act again in the aftermath of Fourth Impact. Shikinami's not a person to mince words with Shinji so it doesn't make sense for her to suddenly pull punches on that topic.

Wille never tells Shinji anything dishonest or misleading while he's with them. It has been 14 years as proven by Toji's sister who he's at least somewhat aware of but he doesn't believe it until he sees Nerv HQ in ruins because Asuka looks the same. Likewise they tell him they turned Unit 01 inside out and could not find Rei at all, only him and the SDAT. He never stops for a moment to consider how Rei and 'Unit 00' are there when he saw them both get eaten with his own eyes and knows Rei was in Unit 01's plug with him because it's not convenient for what he wants to believe, nor does he contemplate why this Rei acts so different from the one he knew until Fuyutsuki info bombs him with it.

To add to what pwhodges said in the other thread, the movie shows things heavily through Shinji's perception of events. But the audience has the benefit of additional scenes, both in this movie and the two prior, that take place outside of Shinji's perspective to show that he is being deliberately manipulated into this particular train of thought by his father, Seele and Kaworu for the sole purpose of getting him to act as they want at the proper time. Even Shinji getting the choker in the first place is likely part of Gendo's plan to get rid of Kaworu. Hell, Shinji thinks that they blame him and that the destruction of the world is his fault in the first place because 'nice guy' Kaworu tells him that.

On the flip side, Wille probably doesn't know that Shinji thinks he destroyed the world. He never mentioned that at any point during the fight in Central Dogma so there's this huge clusterfuck of a misunderstanding where Shinji is acting on faulty information and thinks Asuka and Mari are trying to stop him because of that and Asuka thinks Shinji is just being a stupid naive shit who can just magically fix everything without knowing why he's so desperate to do so.

Shinji's the sort of person who closes his ears and his mind to the ugly truths of the world in favor of living in his more tolerable escapes. He explained that to Rei in 2.0 and we saw it taken to extremes in 3.0. Every time he started doing something dumb and ill-advised in that movie or when communications between him and other characters broke down and he stopped listening, he just happened to have that SDAT on hand. But now that he's out of easy escapes and has to confront the truth of the world he's trapped in I think he's going to find that things are not at all what he thought they were.
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Postby pwhodges » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:05 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:On the flip side, Wille probably doesn't know that Shinji thinks he destroyed the world. He never mentioned that at any point during the fight in Central Dogma so there's this huge clusterfuck of a misunderstanding where Shinji is acting on faulty information and thinks Asuka and Mari are trying to stop him because of that and Asuka thinks Shinji is just being a stupid naive shit who can just magically fix everything without knowing why he's so desperate to do so

This is an interesting point which I admit I hadn't thought of in quite this way.
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:44 pm

^I actually hadn't thought about it myself until I was editing that post. -o-; But I do think there's something to it. Wille has no way of knowing what Kaworu or Fuyutsuki told Shinji and all Shinji told Asuka was that 1) he was piloting the Eva to change the world, and 2) the Spears are their last hope. It doesn't provide much insight into his real motivation in that scene.

Touching back on the topic of suicide, I don't think Shinji has it in him to attempt it, whether because he's more resilient than he seems or because he just doesn't think he's worth it. He didn't try after Kaworu told him the big lie or after Fuyutsuki shot down his last hope that he had at least saved Rei. If he didn't try there when everything seemed awful and hopeless, I don't think he will at all.
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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:34 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:No, Ritsuko answers his question. Here's the exchange from the funimation subs. I noticed the dub altered some dialogue that changes the context of the conversation a bit, so I compared these to Github and UTW-Thora's translations and they're essentially the same.

I've only watched the dub, so this disconnect between my viewpoint makes more sense, we didn't all see the same thing.

BlueBasilisk wrote:Wille has no way of knowing what Kaworu or Fuyutsuki told Shinji and all Shinji told Asuka was that 1) he was piloting the Eva to change the world, and 2) the Spears are their last hope. It doesn't provide much insight into his real motivation in that scene.

I'll concede that Shinji is partially to blame. Shinji's natural lack of communications skills, his nature of running away and hiding certainly don't help him in the long run, and cause undue confusion. But I still believe WILLE could and should have told him more in the time they had.
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Postby kuribo-04 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:27 pm

Hell, Shinji thinks that they blame him and that the destruction of the world is his fault in the first place because 'nice guy' Kaworu tells him that.

A bit off-topic, but I think Kaworu was actually being selfless there, abd what he did was the healthy thing to do, he just misjudged how affected Shinji would be.
The way I read Kaworu, he's like the nicest guy in this series, to the point of stupidity.
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Postby xanderkh » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:48 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:^I actually hadn't thought about it myself until I was editing that post. -o-; But I do think there's something to it. Wille has no way of knowing what Kaworu or Fuyutsuki told Shinji and all Shinji told Asuka was that 1) he was piloting the Eva to change the world, and 2) the Spears are their last hope. It doesn't provide much insight into his real motivation in that scene.

Touching back on the topic of suicide, I don't think Shinji has it in him to attempt it, whether because he's more resilient than he seems or because he just doesn't think he's worth it. He didn't try after Kaworu told him the big lie or after Fuyutsuki shot down his last hope that he had at least saved Rei. If he didn't try there when everything seemed awful and hopeless, I don't think he will at all.


Maybe not to physical suicide, but it's possibly that he might just...mentally "shut down" from all this trauma. There have been cases where people who have become so depressed that they actually fall into comas and never wake up.

It's possible that because of Shinji's own mentality, he may think that despite everything he tries to do, he just fucks it up. He tries to help? People die. He does nothing? People die anyway. (his possible mentality as a theory, not my actual assumption what may REALLY happen). So, it's possible that he could come to the conclusion that he just should retreat forever sense apparently in his eyes, he can't do anything right, so why stick around? It's possible that he may chose to "Run away forever" as a kind of callback to his mantra.

Of course, I know that this isn't really going to be the end for Shinji, since I know he'll be back to recover, but it's something to think about.
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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:17 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:Maybe not to physical suicide, but it's possibly that he might just...mentally "shut down" from all this trauma. There have been cases where people who have become so depressed that they actually fall into comas and never wake up.

Well, after the end of 3.33, Shinji's already on that path.
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Postby Settie » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:47 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:Touching back on the topic of suicide, I don't think Shinji has it in him to attempt it, whether because he's more resilient than he seems or because he just doesn't think he's worth it. He didn't try after Kaworu told him the big lie or after Fuyutsuki shot down his last hope that he had at least saved Rei. If he didn't try there when everything seemed awful and hopeless, I don't think he will at all.


I've mentioned this in another thread that Shinji has shown a certain amount of disregard for his well being, with the best example being the Zeruel fight. While Mari is fighting it Shinji is in an empty shelter with red light and the PSA warning that the shelter isn't safe. Shinji does nothing to get himself out of danger even when Unit-2 crashed in, it's only when he decides to pilot that he moves.

As you noted he didn't attempt anything in 3.0, however, he still had some hope to cling to (however misguided it had been). He believed he had rescued Rei and then there was Kaworu's spear plan. When the first hope balloon was popped by Fuyutsuki he clung desperately to what Kaworu was selling, when that fell apart it resulted in his state at the end of the movie.
Shinji can take rash actions if he feels cornered and he's certainly there now, he believes Misato hates him, that he's responsible for the worlds destruction, that his attempt to rescue Rei resulted in said destruction. From his perspective there's no place to go or to go back to so him attempting suicide is something i can see happening. Although that does make the lines from the preview more poignant, he'll find hope.

I've only watched the dub, so this disconnect between my viewpoint makes more sense, we didn't all see the same thing.


Doesn't the dub actually say something like that though? If memory serves it mentions how the choker is a sign if their mistrust and his punishment for taking the Evas power for his own.

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:00 am

View Original PostSettie wrote:Doesn't the dub actually say something like that though? If memory serves it mentions how the choker is a sign if their mistrust and his punishment for taking the Evas power for his own.

I watched the dub the other day while typing the comment, and it does have a contextual difference.
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:13 am

View Original PostSettie wrote:...

You are right that Shinji doesn't show a whole lot of regard for his well being. My take on that is that he doesn't really care if something else kills him, like he said he didn't care what happened when he fought the 10th Angel, but I don't think he'd go out of his way to deliberately harm himself. Like he might have stayed in Unit 13's plug until he starved to death in his despair but I don't think he'd hang himself or jump off a building or something like that, if that makes sense.

In the dub, what Ritsuko says to Shinji is basically the same as in the sub, but Shinji's question is changed so that he says something like 'what do you mean, my punishment?' instead of the more general 'what are you talking about?' from the subs. Because Ritsuko's dialogue doesn't change along with Shinji's, it looks like she's just talking over him and ignoring the question instead of elaborating on her earlier point. The dub has a lot of stuff like this. It's present in the other movies too but it stands out more in 3.0 where people analyze every word.
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