Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Sachi » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:29 pm

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:37 pm

Reichu wrote:There's a town nearby. He's probably been looting it for supplies and returning to the beach repeatedly to keep a watch-out for returners.

So would that be where he got the crude materials for the grave crosses as well? And is the town Tokyo-3 or some other town?
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:52 pm

She was probably referring to the town we actually see when Rei's head is falling. Tokyo 3 is gone, like it was at the center of the explosion that unearthed the Black Moon.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:05 am

Good point, but how far of a walk would that be for him? Isn't the Black Moon like 15km in diameter or somesuch?
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:57 am

He's not got much else to do.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:10 am

Well, he does have a lot of moping and guilt to deal with. I imagine that would eat up a lot of time.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby traumalamb » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:49 pm

Well, this is my first time posting, so I must apologize beforehand if I do not seem to fit the forum culture. However, I actually joined to discuss this specific topic, so I hope you can all hold on.

Before I begin, there are a few things you must know. I am 1. rather mentally disordered. I have 6 different mental illnesses, all professionally diagnosed, 2. One of them is PTSD, due to multiple forms of abuse, starting from when I was born, and 3. I am currently in therapy and medicated, so yes, it is being treated.

Also, I believe that art can have more meaning than it's intended meaning. Those who see it and what they take away from it also gives it meaning. So I don't mean to take away how NGE touched anyone else, or what it means to them. This is just what it meant to me, and feels to me.

With that, let's begin. This post is based on my most recent view of EoE, so that's the ending I'm going off of.

Shinji and Asuka are not healthy people. Let's get that out of the way. But Shinji is no worse than Asuka. Asuka physically assaults people, gaslights Shinji by making him believe he needs to live up to her unreasonable expectations (that he needs to know her needs without her telling him), and just, in general, is not really great. I am not saying she is worse than Shinji either, though. Shinji gets off to her, out of desperation and sickness, relies on her to even function, putting immense pressure on her, and just in general, is also really not great.

Rather, they are expressing trauma in different ways.

In fact, I can relate to both of them. Due to my mother's mental illness, I too, had to "grow up fast" like Asuka, and throughout preteen and teenhood, felt a need to be considered an adult. Unlike Asuka, though, the adults I met preyed on that, rather than dissuade her from doing adult things (see: Koji, one of the most heroic characters in all of NGE, if you can call any of the characters heroic) and telling her she's still a child. But much like Shinji, I run from things. I struggle with maladaptive daydreaming. I listen to music and create whole universes away from everyone else. I disassociate, curl up, freeze up, and avoid everything.

Is AsuShin healthy? No.

But Asuka isn't the only victim.

Alright, let me also get this out of the way. People who are traumatized can love. They can also feel love. Even if they are still in the cycle of abuse, even if they haven't come to terms with it, they can love. To say otherwise is gross and uneducated. However, if they have not sought help, this expression of love is often "tainted" and expressed in hurtful ways. Their love is just as valid as the love of everyone else, but it's colored by trauma and abuse, and can hurt those around them. For now, I'm focusing on the action of love, or the desire to be with someone in a mutual relationship where you work to love them, rather than the emotion. To quote one of the theory wiki pages, "She then proceeds to accuse him of not loving anyone, not even himself. The accusation in question should not be interpreted as inability to feel but as inability to translate the feelings to meaningful acts of love." (note: this does not excuse any harmful or abusive behavior, rather, it is an explanation)

Shinji and Asuka, in my mind, love each other. Truly. No joke. The issue is they are too traumatized to understand it or express it. Asuka wishes to be close to Shinji, to be understood by Shinji, to understand him, in her own way. Likewise, Shinji wants to help Asuka, to be understood and understand, to be close to her. This love is also only partially romantic. I think a lot of their love is platonic, probably most of it. They're too young to fully understand romance. But they can understand some of it.

The issue is they can't express it without their trauma getting it way. Asuka wants to be seen, so her love is expressed as a need for attention. Shinji wants to be loved and to stop feeling pain, so his love is expressed as sheer desperation. Thus, masturbating over her unconscious body. It's nasty, but hypersexuality isn't uncommon in abused preteens and teens. Let's remember, Shinji is also only 14, iirc. He's confused, hurt, and scared.

On Shinji's selfishness. Let's approach this. Yes, but as much as everyone is. When he lashes out, saying he wishes everyone was dead, Instrumentality was already starting. In EoE, remember the clip where everyone is talking about break ups and rejection? I take this as Shinji experiencing everyone's hate. Think of it as Madoka in PMMM. His wish is to erase unhappiness. He, at that moment, is starting to not only experience his own crushing sadness and existential depression, but that of others. This breaks him for a moment. A sudden reaction is not the defining moment. Your initial reaction is who you grew up to be, and your secondary is who you really are - who you want to be. Shinji grew up in an abusive childhood, so his brain developed to protect him. To minimize his hurt. It's not until it's finished, has leveled out, and he can talk to Asuka, Rei, and Kaworu, and even, eventually, Yui, therefore calming him and having a better understanding that we see who Shinji is. Broken, but strong, like every NGE character is. Abused to the point where they are shattered, yet they always put one foot in front of the other.

On Asuka and Koji. Asuka wants to have sex with Koji to prove her adulthood. I've been in the same place. But notice, she doesn't desire Koji in the same way as Shinji. Asuka interacts with Shinji on a emotional level, whereas all her interactions with Koji are merely sexual.

Another thing. Komm, süsser Tod and Thantos -IF I CAN'T BE YOURS- both, to me, almost express the feelings of Asuka and Shinji. Shinji and Asuka both realize the need for other people. Remember, Asuka couldn't let herself rely on others. Shinji didn't understand the purpose of having others since they only abandoned him. Shinj and Asuka also want to belong to each other, a sense of longing, but it is faulty due to their baggage.

I'm slightly sleep deprived, so I'm sorry if this explanation is poopbutt, but I hope this adds something. And to add, I'm not saying they are destined, or their relationship is a healthy one, but they are... trying. And at the very, very end, I like to think Asuka and Shinji's scene was symbolic of them accepting their feelings, Shinji accepting the anger inside him, Asuka accepting her need for others, and that began the journey of working through some... issues.
*screams internally in Shinjese*
It all returns to nothing
It all comes tumbling down, tumbling down, tumbling down

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Glor » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:38 pm

That is an excellent, well thought-out and meaningful insight. Thank you for sharing.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby NoAltRealities » Sat May 12, 2018 4:37 pm

Just my two cents from months ago. And a very very brief rundown on my thoughts

I mean, at this point with all the signs that she is indeed choosing to acknowledge a mad Shinji with affection, it's pretty clear it wasn't just to save her own skin. It really isn't a coincidence the titlecard of the scene is "I Need You". Not to mention that the caress mirrors the one Yui gave to Shinji as a final goodbye. Why would they put the caress there if it didn't mean anything? And given the themes of the show are optimistic to the possibilities of self improvement, it really isn't a stretch to say it really was out of "love/affection". In fact I have no doubt.

The entire show she struggled to accurately express how she truly felt ( whatever you think it was ) due to the Barriers she put up. Eventually her relationship with others, especially Shinji, declines into failure . That Hedgehog dilemma you see mentioned to death on this site.

Instrumentality clearly affected her in some way if she went from her rather dying than being one with Shinji, to what we saw. A main reason why people don't like their relationship is because they crossed to many red lines in their eyes. This is a valid and reasonable way to think. So many people saw how Shinji failed to reciprocate to Asuka's advances, how he masturbated in the hospital, and seemingly strangle her TWICE. To many people the line was crossed and an indicator that Shinji was a big no no for Asuka ( even her own VA I think ). But while they cannot look past shinjis actions and believes that Asuka deserves someone better, let's see how Asuka herself responded to him at the end of it all.

-She ( seemingly ) chooses to return to the real world alluding to the possibility she had a similar resolve to Shinji, although there is a possibility she didn't have her self awareness during instrumentality. I like to think she did because that way it's more interesting and not a huge 'fuck you' to her imo but I digress
- she chooses to lie down next to the same other person who has hurt her deeply ( she's guilty too )
- and when he attempts to strangle her for real this time around, she responds with a caress. Huh. The last person you'd expect to show such open compassion is the very person who gives it. Contrasting to how Asuka was the one person Shinji wanted help from right before instrumentality but ultimately seems to rejects him. Now that's growth. But how can Asuka herself show such compassion? Surely it's just not realistic to think she forgot all the shit that Shinji did. And what happens next is
- "I feel sick/How Disgusting" . Yeah no, she didn't forget. A reminder that it is in fact Asuka and this is reality.
But there's also
- the last movie poster we see A/S with their backs turned to the viewers looking into the distance. Granted, can't see their faces, but we can see their BODY LANGUAGE. Neither of them seem tense, they seem relaxed. Almost at peace with each other. A rather positive scene and also the last thing we ever see of Evangelion canon unfortunately. At the very least they don't seem to be tense and dare I say they are almost comfortable

While the negative and ambiguous connotation of "I feel sick/How Disgusting" cannot be ignored, the more positive events I detailed above also cannot be ignored. Yea they fucked up. But the movie ends on the possibility of a brighter future. Otherwise you are being WAYYY too critical of a damaged 14 year old girl.

It is certainly valid to be against her and the LAS pairing and you are very welcome to do so. But it also valid to be optimistic towards it and hope for a better future between the two of them. At the root they were bad for each other because of their Barriers, lack of communication, and their own personal traumas. They immaturely seeked each other out for SELFISH comfort and support. This is why their relationship had a falling out , but in instrumentality they learn NOT TO do what they did beforehand.

Life isn't all about you ,stop pushing people away and being selfish, you need other people. Anywhere can be paradise with the will to live , love yourself( yeah you all saw the movie ).

so upon returning, she sees Shinji has gone mad and strangling her resulting in her caressing him. For the first time she's not thinking about comforting herself, but instead comforting the very person she seeked it from. It's very unexpected, especially from her, but she still does. Shinji of course snaps back to reality and cries over guilt, confusion, and relief it's all over. He learns the same message so what I like to think from the fact that he is standing up in the movie poster, is that he is accepting to be more 'up to it'. They already had their worst so now it can only improve ( added by the poster imo ) And given the show ends on hope, I would not consider it a stretch to want to see damaged teenagers learn from their mistakes and provide the support from each other that they've wanted. If there is one thing these two need, it's hope and the will to TRY if they really want a shot of happiness. Whether with each other or as individuals.
Kind of like how people IRL need to.

Jeez man just want these two to be happy together. Enjoy the greatness.
HhHaaa?


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