Meaning behind Asuka's Mom's Mixed Messages

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Meaning behind Asuka's Mom's Mixed Messages

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:58 pm

While Asuka was in the eva and still under the ocean, her mom's soul says both, "come die with me" and "don't die."

Anyone want to take a crack at the intent there?

My theory: Asuka had to choose between herself as proof of a mother's love, and how her mother treated her afterwards. Asuka chooses herself and hence connects with the love her mother once held for her. Later on Asuka says "you've been with me since the beginning!" Perhaps the significance there was that within her the person her mom once was lived on, despite what would later happen to her.
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Re: Meaning behind Asuka's Mom's Mixed Messages

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:51 am

My go-to:

Gehirn salvaged the rest of Kyoko into Eva-02's core after her suicide. So you've got the nice maternal parts in there, but also the batshit crazy parts. The former are dominant due to having been absorbed first and because the Eva has a higher affinity for them.

This procedure was done because an incomplete soul has less A.T. Field power potential, and the A.T. Field is kind of what they need the Eva for. (The data here are mixed, but worth nothing that Rei believes Eva-00's ATF will disappear if she ejects in episode 23. Her presence also happens to complete Eva-00's soul.) It also served as an important test run for what would become the default method for soul transferals in the future. Kyoko's failure demonstrated that the Contact Experiments were never going to do what they were supposed to do -- make a copy of a soul --, so Gehirn made the most of things and confirmed for the first time that Evas would accept souls from corpses.

The "Die with me!" stuff is intriguing. Between Asuka hearing Kyoko "distantly", and them having a proper reunion, there's this rapid barrage of images. I haven't looked at the German text too much -- here's a thread; looks like it may be more "mixed messages" from Kyoko. Most interesting thing, to me, is how the sequence ties the past to things that haven't even happened yet. The first image:

SPOILER: Show
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prognosticates Asuka's death. The last image:

SPOILER: Show
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foreshadows Eva-02/Kyoko's death. (Asuka's doll, gruesomely eviscerated. Asuka has thought of Eva-02 as her doll. The monkey doll represents many other things, though, so when its subtext is combined with Eva-02's death? Hmmmm.)

The dangling doll is another reminder of Kyoko's wish, which ultimately comes true (mother and daughter dying together).

SPOILER: Show
Image

Image


My inclination is to view the final battle of the Soryus as a sort of transformative cathartic experience, where the trauma from the past is "ritualistically reenacted" under very different circumstances as a way of moving past it. Asuka reexperiences being a child (the initial burst of regression), and then experiences being her own mother (via sense of oneness with Eva-02; note how bestial Asuka gets at times). Finally through death -- Mother and Daughter dying together, the wish of a mad woman transfigured into a moment of raw love and determination -- she returns to nothing. Ashes, before rising again as a being freed from her mother at last.

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Re: Meaning behind Asuka's Mom's Mixed Messages

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:08 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:My inclination is to view the final battle of the Soryus as a sort of transformative cathartic experience, where the trauma from the past is "ritualistically reenacted" under very different circumstances as a way of moving past it. Asuka reexperiences being a child (the initial burst of regression), and then experiences being her own mother (via sense of oneness with Eva-02; note how bestial Asuka gets at times). Finally through death -- Mother and Daughter dying together, the wish of a mad woman transfigured into a moment of raw love and determination -- she returns to nothing. Ashes, before rising again as a being freed from her mother at last.

NGL, that's a very strong analysis. There's one thing I'd add:
View Original PostReichu wrote:
Gehirn salvaged the rest of Kyoko into Eva-02's core after her suicide. So you've got the nice maternal parts in there, but also the batshit crazy parts. The former are dominant due to having been absorbed first and because the Eva has a higher affinity for them.

Given that Asuka's mom gets her wish of Asuka dying, and the foreshadowing we are given as she's saying "don't die" and "die with me", it's possible Asuka's mom was manipulating Asuka into sacrificing herself.

In the end, Asuka rejects this, choosing to live, rather than stay with her mom in death. In other words, Asuka has grown up. She no longer attributes her self-worth based on what her mom thought of her, and has found a will to live which isn't tied to the desires of others.
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Re: Meaning behind Asuka's Mom's Mixed Messages

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Postby Blockio » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:36 pm

Another explanation would be that its something along the lines of "If we die, we go down as one". Not really related to all the pictures in the vision, but it would definitely fit the scene and "final fight" athmosphere.
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Re: Meaning behind Asuka's Mom's Mixed Messages

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Postby imprimatur13 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:44 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The last image:

SPOILER: Show
Image


foreshadows Eva-02/Kyoko's death. (Asuka's doll, gruesomely eviscerated. Asuka has thought of Eva-02 as her doll. The monkey doll represents many other things, though, so when its subtext is combined with Eva-02's death? Hmmmm.)

The doll represents Asuka's inner, dependent self.

The doll represents Eva-02.

Asuka defines herself as an Eva pilot; without the Evangelion she is nothing.

Asuka resents her own dependence on the Evangelion for a sense of identity, and so she subconsciously wants to destroy it. Of course, the Evangelion is her mother, and that fits. She is both destroying her own inner dependence, and also destroying that on which she depends.
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Re: Meaning behind Asuka's Mom's Mixed Messages

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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:03 pm

I only recently noticed this, having come to the realization that dubs are almost always horribly inaccurate, switching to subs, watching EoE again, and noticing that I was never able to hear that Kyoko said things other than "You won't die". I think of it like this; Asuka has only just been pulled out of a physically comatose state (although she was still aware of what was going on around her), and begins to have a breakdown. Her distress calls the Kyoko in Unit 02's core, the caring, maternal part of Kyoko's soul, to call out to Asuka's mind. This triggers Asuka's memories and subconscious fear of her mother after the Contact Experiment shattered her soul, causing some memories of her mother's words to come back as well. Kyoko's soul hears this echoing in Asuka's head, and fights it off, showing that the real mother, the one Asuka lost, had been in Unit 02 the whole time.
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Re: Meaning behind Asuka's Mom's Mixed Messages

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Postby C.T.1290 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:41 pm

View Original Postimprimatur13 wrote:Asuka resents her own dependence on the Evangelion for a sense of identity, and so she subconsciously wants to destroy it. Of course, the Evangelion is her mother, and that fits. She is both destroying her own inner dependence, and also destroying that on which she depends.

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote:Given that Asuka's mom gets her wish of Asuka dying, and the foreshadowing we are given as she's saying "don't die" and "die with me", it's possible Asuka's mom was manipulating Asuka into sacrificing herself.

In the end, Asuka rejects this, choosing to live, rather than stay with her mom in death. In other words, Asuka has grown up. She no longer attributes her self-worth based on what her mom thought of her, and has found a will to live which isn't tied to the desires of others.

So it seems like she has resolved her issues.

I mean without her mom's suicide or treating the doll as her daughter but Asuka herself as such, she probably would have been a better person. Or basically how she was in the Shinji Ikari Raising Project manga, since her mom was still alive and she seems to be more mentally stable.
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Re: Meaning behind Asuka's Mom's Mixed Messages

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:27 pm

I believe the way that the libido and destrudo of the on the psychograph and their connection to the state of the Eva and pilot's AT Field(s) in combination with Asuka's announcement of understanding the meaning behind the AT Field is presented in EOE tells us fairly clearly about the nature of its existence. When Shinji's destrudo was rising, his ego borders were collapsing and he was on the verge of dissolving into essentially nothingness or perhaps undifferentiated potential. His AT Field, that which gives shape to his human form the patterns of his heart and mind was being neutralized as a result of the destrudo and dissolution of his ego/ego borders.

Asuka, who couldn't even synch with her Eva well enough to operate it on a physical level whatsoever, is able to achieve synchronization once again and project and utilize the AT Field offensively when she realizes her will to live and feels the presence of her mother and the love they share for one another, which in psychoanalytical terms means her psychograph would likely indicate a significant rise in her libido. The AT Field itself is a representation of the connection she and her mother share. She opened her heart to Eva/her mother at last the AT Field functions a symbol of the invisible bond that ties them together. The AT Field shapes their being, to quote Rei III from Ep. 25, creating each other as the other creates them.

Yet, the AT Field also functions as a barrier that shapes them separately as different individuals with unique souls. The AT Field is what separates them as beings, but almost paradoxically (really in appearance only) it the glue that bonds them together. Their experiences and interactions with another means they are no longer simply Asuka or Kyoko, but Asuka-Kyoko and conversely, Kyoko-Asuka. The nature of their interactions and experiences with one another merely adds a greater degree of specificity to the continuum of Asuka-Kyoko and Kyoko-Asuka they are (such as Asuka daughter - Kyoko mother, etc.). The higher the degree of specificity, being a natural result of the ever growing accumulation of experiences with one another, serves to further reinforce and strengthen that bond.

If you reject the bonds you share, resent them, and try to sever or repress them by closing your heart and mind to that person, the AT Field isn't capable of being utilized in a constructive manner like the Evas do, and the only function they're capable of performing on their own is to serve as the barrier between your being/the realm of your soul from everything else, If you embrace them positively, they can enhance your ability to deal with a given thing in various situations. Asuka doing so at the bottom of the lake allowed her to activate her Eva once again, heal her mental relationship with her mother, and to be a force of nature in fighting against the UN forces and the MP Evas.

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Re: Meaning behind Asuka's Mom's Mixed Messages

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:07 am

The images predicting Asuka's death during the scene make me think Asuka's mom was trying to manipulate her into death,
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Re: Meaning behind Asuka's Mom's Mixed Messages

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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:09 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:The images predicting Asuka's death during the scene make me think Asuka's mom was trying to manipulate her into death,

As metal as this sounds, I don't quite interpret it that way. The only part of Kyoko's soul that was successfully transferred was the maternal, loving parts, that's why synchronization was so strong when Unit 02 awakened, because that was Asuka's personality as a child coming out, fully trusting her mother after nearly a decade of resentment. I think those disgusting images of dead-ass Asuka was Asuka herself projecting her fear of death, of not leaving a proper mark on the world. This projection is immediately refuted by Kyoko showing Asuka that she had been in the core of Unit 02 the entire time.
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Re: Meaning behind Asuka's Mom's Mixed Messages

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:53 pm

View Original PostAdamMalkobitch wrote:As metal as this sounds, I don't quite interpret it that way. The only part of Kyoko's soul that was successfully transferred was the maternal, loving parts, that's why synchronization was so strong when Unit 02 awakened, because that was Asuka's personality as a child coming out, fully trusting her mother after nearly a decade of resentment

Which ended in her brutal demise, and not just that. It resulted in her dying, with her mother, just as Asuka's mom had wanted her to. Given that we see Asuka's death foreshadowed with Kyoko's comments, and that we end up with Asuka dying just as her mom wanted to before she died, it seems to me Kyoko wanting her to live was a lie.

I also don't think dependency on her mother was supposed to be a progression of Asuka's arc. And I don't think it's a coincidence that Asuka leaves instrumentality without her mother. Shinji had to let go of his mother to move on with his life and it seems fitting that the same would apply with Asuka.
I think those disgusting images of dead-ass Asuka was Asuka herself projecting her fear of death, of not leaving a proper mark on the world. This projection is immediately refuted by Kyoko showing Asuka that she had been in the core of Unit 02 the entire time.

The projection isn't refuted as all as Asuka does end up dead and brutally mutilated. I'm not sure how Kyoko being the core of unit 02 refutes that.
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Re: Meaning behind Asuka's Mom's Mixed Messages

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:46 pm

View Original PostAdamMalkobitch wrote:The only part of Kyoko's soul that was successfully transferred was the maternal, loving parts

Successfully transferred via the contact experiment. The Classified Information only comments on this aspect, because it's in the context of explaining the cause of Kyoko's mental illness. The possibility of the rest of Kyoko being transferred in later is not precluded.

The Kyoko voices that are heard in the plug before contact properly occurs are both treated acoustically the same -- there is nothing suggesting the loving voice has a different source from the crazy voice. If Asuka is imagining one but not the other, why are they presented as a distant presence that's dueling with itself?

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Re: Meaning behind Asuka's Mom's Mixed Messages

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Postby traumalamb » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:27 pm

View Original PostAdamMalkobitch wrote:I only recently noticed this, having come to the realization that dubs are almost always horribly inaccurate, switching to subs, watching EoE again, and noticing that I was never able to hear that Kyoko said things other than "You won't die". I think of it like this; Asuka has only just been pulled out of a physically comatose state (although she was still aware of what was going on around her), and begins to have a breakdown. Her distress calls the Kyoko in Unit 02's core, the caring, maternal part of Kyoko's soul, to call out to Asuka's mind. This triggers Asuka's memories and subconscious fear of her mother after the Contact Experiment shattered her soul, causing some memories of her mother's words to come back as well. Kyoko's soul hears this echoing in Asuka's head, and fights it off, showing that the real mother, the one Asuka lost, had been in Unit 02 the whole time.

Oooh, I like this one. Full of happiness.

Unfortunately, I think it is more likely that the soul contained in the Eva simply had both the truly motherly part of Asuka, and a bit of the part taken over by psychosis. But oh, I like yours much more. It makes sense and ends sweetly.
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