So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby Rei IV » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:16 am

I've always been confused with the scene where Ritsu-chan makes her final confrontation with Gendo and goes out with a BANG. Did the MAGI really choose Gendo over Ritsuko? That is, did "Naoko" choose her lover over her own daughter? If I recall, canon says MAGI are suppose to make logical and rational decisions which we can say blowing up NERV out of spite IS NOT. But isn't there also a bit in the series of Naoko's conscious being within the MAGI or something like that? Could it have possibly overrode Ritz's attempt to blow up headquarters in favor of Gendo? I haven't the watched NGE for a while but I'm convinced that whatever shred of sanity Ritsuko had finally snapped and deluded her in really believing that it was Naoko, her mother, rejecting her command in favor of Gendo rather than the MAGI simply doing it was designed for: Making rational and logical decisions which, again, blowing up NERV out of spite IS NOT. If that's the case, poor Ritsu-chan is more pitiful and sad than I've ever thought. Shame, because she was a genuinely nice and compassionate person before her spiral downhill.

Ritsuko has become my favorite secondary character in NGE. She's often mischaracterized despite having a lot of nuance so I'm interested in hearing your own thoughts and opinions.

:ritsuko_mug:
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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:00 am

I believe that it was a combination of the two, Ritsuko, who's grip on reality was starting to slip when she sees that Rei is usurping her position with Gendo (much like her own mother did when she saw Ritsuko with Gendo). We're not sure how much of Naoko's consciousness (if any) has any direct knowledge of the outside, and was "aware" of what Ritsuko as up to, but a more likely scenario is that Naoko, on principle would deny her daughter like that, getting back at her for stealing Gendo away from her in the first place.
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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:52 pm

The Magi were based off/copied from Naoko's personality broken into 3 facets, scientist woman and mother. Casper, Naoko's womanhood is the one that vetoed the self destruct so it's hard to say her conclusion is entirely off base here.

https://wiki.evageeks.org/Magi
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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:11 pm

The womanhood that was pissed off Naoko was replaced by Ritsuko as Gendo's... fuck buddy.
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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby Lyrical » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:06 pm

MAGI clearly wasn't following the normal protocol for "rational and logical" decision-making in that scene, because as we saw, the majority vote was in favour of the self-destuct. Two out of three computers, Melchior and Balthasar, supported the explosion. That's why Ritsuko concludes that the MAGI's rejection had to have happened for personal reasons, and not because the MAGI were operating normally: the system as a whole agreed with her to go ahead with the explosion, yet Casper somehow managed to force the machine to actually defy its own protocol and reject Ritsuko anyway. What we essentially saw was that Naoko's obsession with Gendo, embodied in Casper, had so much more weight than her love for her daughter (Balthasar) that it overruled both Balthasar and Melchior and doomed humanity in the process.

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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:22 pm

RITSUKO:
I'm sorry...
I secretly altered MAGI's program earlier.

Mayhaps Ritchan has no one but herself to blame here.

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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:26 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Mayhaps Ritchan has no one but herself to blame here.


For allowing Naoko's personality to have such an influence over the decision or for directly sabotaging herself?
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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:36 pm

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:For allowing Naoko's personality to have such an influence over the decision or for directly sabotaging herself?

Yes. :nyao:

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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:46 pm

How did I know you were going to give a vague answer like that?
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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby Rei IV » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:01 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Yes. :nyao:

So Naoko really didn't have any effect on CASPER, it was Ritsuko's alteration of the program that lead to her decision to blow up NERV HQ be overrode, and rather than blame it as her own blunder, she irrationally blames it on her mother choosing Gendo over her? Ritsuko really was unhinged then.
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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:18 pm

I don't think Reichu is subscribing to any answer. The reply seems more like a play on something along the lines of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL5EK9vsCY0

Friggin smartass
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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:00 pm

Between these options:

(A) A supercomputer system that has, up until precisely this point, worked very mechanically and reliably decides all of a sudden to become 1/3 self-aware and override its own programming solely so that Naoko's ghost can give Ritsuko the finger

and

(B) Ritsuko, whose mental health has been visibly degrading, made programming alterations to the Magi which she thought would satisfy her death drive and lust for revenge, only to have things go not the way she expected; but she is so unhinged she cannot even consider that this outcome resulted from her own actions, and instead blames it on what happens to feel "emotionally true" in the moment

There isn't even a choice, really. Ritsuko's head is drowning in jealousy and paranoia with little connection to reality. Exactly why does she think Naoko would pick Gendo over her? This feels all too much like a self-created delusion -- something Ritsuko fears would be true because she went and slept with the same man her mother did. But Naoko doesn't know this; she died before Ritsuko hopped Gendo's bone. Does Ritsuko think Naoko is somehow self-aware within the Magi, despite only having three aspects of her personality digitized and for a very specific purpose? If so, then wouldn't this Naoko-in-the-Magi hate Gendo as much as Ritsuko does, if not more? If the Magi can revise its personal memories with knowledge of Ritsuko's sexual activities, then certainly it could revise its memories with the circumstances of Naoko's death. It only went online that same day and everything... But we really needn't dive into anything so convoluted. Ritchan had been unspooling for a while, and whatever Seele did to her put the final cracks in her facade and let us see the dark and extremely distorted emotional reality she'd been attempting to suppress with a strict adherence to science and logic.

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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby silvermoonlight » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:23 am

I always felt that in the series the guards of the Seele had raped Ritsuko hence why she is standing naked in front of them and they talk about humiliation and after this she was hell bent on revenge against Gendo in EOE its just her mother screwed up her plans big time and even when she dies she berates Gendo about the fact that Rei does not love him and talks about his love betraying him.

As she see Rei as Yui even though there not the same person and Gendo is not in a sexual relationship with her but despite this its still wrong and uncomfortable in some scenes in the series/manga. I don't think she was offer her rocker though I think like all of the characters after what Seele did to her she went in to her own deep depression and no longer cared it just became about pure revenge.

I think the Magi as you say were just being rational and seeing her choice as not rational.
Last edited by silvermoonlight on Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:44 am

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:I always felt that in the series the Magi had raped Ritsuko



Please for the love of the FAR tell me this is a typo and you don't actually think she was raped by a computer.

That aside, I think it's hard not to read Ritsuko as mentally broken down when she destroys a tank full of human bodies, breaks down crying, spends an entire episode in a catatonic slump that makes Shinji look manic, and then tries to blow up a ton of people including herself. Hysterical woman indeed. (that guy was still a massive dick though.)

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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby silvermoonlight » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:55 am

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:Please for the love of the FAR tell me this is a typo and you don't actually think she was raped by a computer.


It was a typo I meant to say guards of the Seele. :facepalm:
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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby neongenesisvandelay » Thu May 03, 2018 2:18 am

I think it was a little bit of everything; the imminent destruction of NERV, the psychological grasp of Gendo, her complete hatred of Rei- it all boiled into one foolproof moment where the MAGI utterly betrayed her, driving Ritsuko insane. Her mental stability is at least hinted at, when she partially prevents the assault on NERV headquarters-promising to 'see her mother soon' felt like a moment where she started to slip out of reality. As to how much of Naoko is 'part' of the MAGI system, I think she makes up a semi-significant portion of it's programming- enough to make a decision regarding it's alliance, where it ultimately chose Gendo over Ritsuko.
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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby Reichu » Thu May 03, 2018 3:34 am

View Original Postneongenesisvandelay wrote:As to how much of Naoko is 'part' of the MAGI system, I think she makes up a semi-significant portion of it's programming- enough to make a decision regarding it's alliance, where it ultimately chose Gendo over Ritsuko.

The Magi is three separate parts, and each part is equally Naoko. It's implicit in its programming that no one part has dominance. That's the whole point of the exercise. If at any point during the Magi's five years of activity it showed signs of favoring one personality -- hence not being democratic -- it would have been quickly deemed a programming glitch and corrected. It's simpler to ascribe the Magi's rogue behavior in EoE to Ritsuko's last-minute meddling -- since presumably her meddling had SOME effect, or else why mention it at all? -- than to assume the Magi was not operating to spec for its entire operational time and somehow nobody noticed.

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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Thu May 03, 2018 1:12 pm

The Magi is three separate parts, and each part is equally Naoko. It's implicit in its programming that no one part has dominance. That's the whole point of the exercise. If at any point during the Magi's five years of activity it showed signs of favoring one personality -- hence not being democratic -- it would have been quickly deemed a programming glitch and corrected. It's simpler to ascribe the Magi's rogue behavior in EoE to Ritsuko's last-minute meddling -- since presumably her meddling had SOME effect, or else why mention it at all? -- than to assume the Magi was not operating to spec for its entire operational time and somehow nobody noticed.


See, I don't find the Magi's behaviour to be rogue at all. Naoko as a scientist would see the self destruct as the most logical action to prevent Lilith from being seized, and Naoko as a mother would rather her child and the others be killed instantly in an explosion versus suffer the wrath of the JSSDF, but Ritsuko had already stated she didn't get along with her mother as a woman. Choosing Gendo over Ritsuko isn't a new development, and in the past Ritsuko and Gendo had been on the same side. It's only at the end the two come into conflict.

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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby Reichu » Thu May 03, 2018 2:28 pm

I'm still a bit fuzzy on exactly how the Magi's decision-making process works, so here's the relevant text:

Episode 11 wrote:FUYUTSUKI:
Government by majority decision of three different computers.
It's a system that is properly in line with the fundamentals of democracy.


Episode 13 wrote:HYUGA:
There it is!
Balthasar has been taken over!

ANNOUNCEMENT:
Independent self-destruct has been approved
by the artificial intelligence.

(...)
Self-destruct device will be triggered 02 seconds
after the consent of all three members.

(...)
Special Command 582 requires the consent of two computers
to cancel the action.

This is a bit confusing to me. It appears to be saying that the self-destruct is voted in with only Melchior and Balthasar's consent (as these are the only two Magi controlled by Ireul at this moment). This is fine, since it's in line with what Fuyutsuki say about majority rule. However, it's immediately followed up by telling us that the self-destruction system won't actually be triggered until the decision is unanimous. (Japanese for parts in blue above is 人工知能により、自律自爆が決議されました!自爆装置は三者一致の後、02秒で行われます。 I'm not seeing any flaw in the Platinum translation.) This suggests that the majority decision doesn't actually mean anything; it's just two AIs impotently announcing something they can't actually do. To make matters even more confusing, what Fuyutsuki told us is once again confirmed when we're told that majority decision is required to stop the self-destruct sequence.

What's going on with this whole "we need Casper to actually REALLY blow things up" maybe-self-contradiction? The only thing that comes to mind is that there is an exception in the Magi's programming when it comes to the self-destruction, and in this instance only all three are needed. I guess if you're going to ask them to agree on anything, blowing everyone in Nerv up would be a good time to do it.

Fuyutsuki's explanation is very straightforward, and tells us the way that the Magi are supposed to function. But as pointed out earlier, in EoE two of the computers agree to go ahead with the self-destruct, but Casper's veto is enough to stop the process. Depending on how one reconciles the "majority decision" sound byte with the seeming contradiction in episode 13, this either means the Magi in EoE are not functioning properly, or that they're working as intended and Ritsuko is just overreacting because she's in the midst of a mental break (leaving the question open of what exact programming changes she made).

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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Thu May 03, 2018 2:54 pm

It's not uncommon for democratic systems to have different "standards" based on the nature of what's being discussed. I'll use Canadian parliament as an example - to pass a budget or other Normal bill, a regular 50% +1 is sufficient, but for something like amending the Charter of Rights and Freedoms you'd need 2/3 plus the support of... I believe 8 of the 10 provinces, because the stakes are much higher. So it's maybe possible that a 2/3 vote is enough to arm the self-destruct sequence, but a unanimous vote is necessary to actually go through with it.

Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if Ritsuko being so blindsided was just a product of her mental state, and possibly a misestimation of where Naoko's loyalty would lie.
Last edited by ACGT-Samael on Fri May 11, 2018 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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