"Above the starry firmament God judges, as we judged" Meaning?

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"Above the starry firmament God judges, as we judged" Meaning?

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Postby ianpgerman » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:15 pm

"Überm sternenzelt richtet Gott, wie wir gerichtet."

I've looked around in the forum for a while and all the answers I find are really lacking.

Yeah, I can understand the reference to Ode to Joy, since that's what Seele's doing, right, trying to erase suffering and pain from the world.

Even Schiller's Poem I understand the general concepts, I just can never understand the meaning behind that specific phrase. In neither context, NGE's or the poem's.

Another guy's interpretation was that "It does not mean that god judges in the same way as we have judged but that we have judged and god judges, too."
But I still don't understand it. Is it trying to say that god and man are more alike than we think? that men are as powerful as god?

I'm inclined to think that it's trying to say that god isn't as powerful as everyone thinks, because of the "God's in his heaven all is right in the world"
quote, which I think is supposed to mean that we don't need God, that he should stay in his heaven.

But even then, I have no fucking clue. Thoughts?

(no links to translations please since i've seen them all)

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Re: "Above the starry firmament God judges, as we judged" Meaning?

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Postby ACGT-Samael » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:22 pm

Thanks for posting this as I wanted to double check what the phrase was and what I meant.

I think in the context of Eva it's a clever nod to the fact that "God" - whether that be Adam or the FAR - are actually human by the broader definition used by the show.

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Re: "Above the starry firmament God judges, as we judged" Meaning?

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:59 pm

You could argue Rei let Shinji judge humanity. But ultimately this does end up very muddled because all the things viewed as gods in the series are very much human and just as flawed as everyone else so it could be purely irony.
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Re: "Above the starry firmament God judges, as we judged" Meaning?

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Postby ianpgerman » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:28 pm

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:You could argue Rei let Shinji judge humanity. But ultimately this does end up very muddled because all the things viewed as gods in the series are very much human and just as flawed as everyone else so it could be purely irony.


But that makes sense, right? I'd imagine a civilization like in Eva doesn't belive in God in the common sense of the world, like we do. So maybe in that quote they are denouncing the original picture of God, saying that he/it/whatever is just as flawed as we are. Maybe trying to justify their actions? Makes sense since their plan is very much "godlike" in its concept.

I'm still not convinced though, idk

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Re: "Above the starry firmament God judges, as we judged" Meaning?

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Postby robersora » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:12 pm

Hello, I'm a native German speaker. The line does not make lots of sense if you take it out of context.
The whole paragraph reads like this:

Unser Schuldbuch sei vernichtet!
ausgesöhnt die ganze Welt!
Brüder – überm Sternenzelt
richtet Gott wie wir gerichtet.

The book which has recorded our guilt shall be destroyed!
the whole world reconciled!
brethren - above the firmament of stars
god judges, as we judged.

It talks directly to humanity as a whole. We should forgive each others faults and flaws, as god in heaven will judge us as we have judged each other down below.
Meaning; if we are able to forgive each other while being alive, God will forgive us when we are dead.
It could insinuate that in the end, humanity as a whole is a God that judges itself. -> fits fine with Instrumentality, doesn't it?
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Re: "Above the starry firmament God judges, as we judged" Meaning?

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:27 pm

View Original Postrobersora wrote:The line does not make lots of sense if you take it out of context.

It could insinuate that in the end, humanity as a whole is a God that judges itself. -> fits fine with Instrumentality, doesn't it?
Wait, so does it make sense or not?
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Re: "Above the starry firmament God judges, as we judged" Meaning?

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:28 am

translation makes perfect sense. The guilt, aka all the pain in the world, gets destroyed, we all get the happy ending where it's all reconciled.

Thankfully, Shinji effed it up sayin "god can judge my spit"
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Re: "Above the starry firmament God judges, as we judged" Meaning?

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Postby carlosibagar » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:52 pm

View Original Postianpgerman wrote: "God's in his heaven all is right in the world"
quote, which I think is supposed to mean that we don't need God, that he should stay in his heaven.


Well, I think that the "God's in his heaven everything's right in the world" quote may have different meanings.
I guess that your thoughts about it are right, but I have another point of view. I think It refers as well to the fact that God is harmful for our world. I mean, as long as God and his angels remain there, far away in that heaven, everything will be, or at least should be, alright here in our world, our reality. It's not like we don't need him, but it's better for us to avoid him.

Sorry if my English isn't good, I'm not a native speaker.

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Re: "Above the starry firmament God judges, as we judged" Meaning?

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Postby Reichu » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:35 pm

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:Wait, so does it make sense or not?

-> doesn't make sense out of context
-> here it is in context
-> here is what it means in context

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Re: "Above the starry firmament God judges, as we judged" Meaning?

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Postby StrokeMeGoat » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:36 am

View Original Postianpgerman wrote:I'm inclined to think that it's trying to say that god isn't as powerful as everyone thinks, because of the "God's in his heaven all is right in the world"
quote, which I think is supposed to mean that we don't need God, that he should stay in his heaven.

Not sure if you're aware, but the quote originates from a poem. The specific passage from it is:
The year’s at the spring,
And day's at the morn;
Morning's at seven;
The hill-side’s dew-pearled;
The lark's on the wing;
The snail's on the thorn;
God's in his heaven—
All's right with the world!


But, the context and specific timing/location it shows up in within said poem is ironic. It's meant to be as innocent as it sounds, but in the poem, plots of assassination and regicide and whatnot are occurring. Ultimately I think its meaning and placement as part of NERV's logo in NGE isn't really necessarily related to the quote you were originally asking about. Others have covered most of what I'd say about that one.

When it comes to this quote though, it's more almost like a mission statement for NERV: the result of the Human Instrumentality Project. Keel Lorenz makes a statement very close to it when Instrumentality begins, stating that the end and the beginning are one and the same and that all things are as they should be. The implication there being that Instrumentality and it resulting in their final goal is the right way for things to be, as if it were the natural order of things and meant to be. NERV is an organization established by SEELE we can't forget, after all, so that's kind of how I see it.

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Re: "Above the starry firmament God judges, as we judged" Meaning?

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Postby ElKaizerX » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:02 pm

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:Thanks for posting this as I wanted to double check what the phrase was and what I meant.

I think in the context of Eva it's a clever nod to the fact that "God" - whether that be Adam or the FAR - are actually human by the broader definition used by the show.


I think you're touching on an idea that may show that the creators of Eva are referring to themselves and the audience in comparison to the characters. A big part of me believes the other dimensional FAR in all their mysterious and creative glory and influence on the story are very much a wink and a nod to the creators themselves, who yes, are very much flawed humans and yet are very much Unknowable gods to the characters in meta sort of way.

Going a little deeper down the rabbit hole I think the deconstruction of the concept of god as being merely a metaphor for human idealizations is very much by design of the show. The story of NGE seems intent on demystifying what religions have deified about the concept storytelling and it's devices in order to convey a message of unplugging from the imaginary (otaku syndrome) to go out decent meal with somebody in the real.


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