“Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby anonymaus » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:43 pm

Updating this thread with three new points of interest

1) Based on the contents of "Everything You've Ever Dreamed" and episode 15 in this image (see this thread for more on the subject) it seems that Shinji and Asuka had more interactions on the night of episode 15 beyond what we saw. I've always thought this from the first watching because of that very abrupt "THE NEXT DAY" cut that happens right after she yells at him that she's feeling sour because she kissed him.

What was it she did to break your heart
Betray your heart and everything
Kiss you with a kiss that wasn't true
It wasn't you at all


This is clearly in reference to Asuka using Shinji for the episode 15 kiss while thinking of Kaji.

Shinji had to have figured it out somehow for it to have hurt him, and I don't think he only figured it out when he looked into her mind in instrumentality. Because the song and that image both make it sound like he reached the realization on that same night.
How did he come to realize it? The only way is if Asuka somehow revealed it. A moment of intimacy seems like the correct opportunity where Asuka would let something like that slip. It also can also explain why the encounter might have gone sour, something that originally seemed at odds with Asuka's cool tone in her "Do you love me?" line.

2) There is a past precedent for Asuka saying something to Shinji in English off-screen.
See this thread.
To make it short, the person who said "I need you." (the English line from EoE's final scene title screen) was Asuka, in response to Shinji's comment: "No one needs me, so it would be better if I didn't exist." This is a certain thing, based on the previous placement of that title screen before it was moved.

"Do you love me?" seems to be something Asuka asked Shinji during a moment of intimacy.
Curiously, the line appears in both Japanese (in the Asuka memory flashback) and in English (in the apparent Shinji memory flashback.) https://youtu.be/PcXGgjyV4WA?t=245

So why are off-screen lines to Shinji showing up in English?
Maybe it's because English is being used as "mind to mind language", or whatever you want to call it. So "I need you" doesn't get expressed in plain Japanese when you're communicating the Instrumentality way, mind to mind.
This scene popped into my mind while thinking about this.
More thought is required on this part (why the lines are in English.) But overall this is an interesting connection.

3) Why does the sex seem to take place on a futon considering they have beds and are rarely seen using the futons (once during the Episode 09 sync training, once during Episode 18)? In small part likely because it would be easier to evade drunk-KO'd Misato by using a different room from their bedrooms, but primarily because Asuka was recreating the conditions that she thought would lead to sex during Episode 09 except making sure that sex happens this time.

As this image shows, Asuka was crushed that Shinji didn't breach the "Wall of Jericho."
Here is that scene. She actually implies sex right before the Wall of Jericho line.
https://streamable.com/v5mkg
Asuka: So where's Misato?
Shinji: At work. She called earlier and said she'll be there all night.
Asuka: So that means we're all alone tonight.
(Asuka enters the futon room)
Asuka: This is the impenetrable Wall of Jericho. Take one step over this wall and you're a dead man.


The way this reads to me is the same way as the circumstances of the kiss. Asuka was awake when she went to lay down with Shinji and he nearly kissed her, her knowledge of what happened the next day confirms that. It seems likely that she stewed on it. Fast forward to episode 15, Asuka straightly asks for a kiss, no subtlety. She forcefully recreates the opportunity that she lost that night by talking about her mother. Amazingly, she actually brings up the topic of their mothers in the second kiss attempt too, but more softly. It seems that it's a topic she wants to talk with him about. Her original tearful utterance of ''mama" was probably meant to bait a question from Shinji on the subject.

Anyway, that's the point I'm trying to make: Asuka stubbornly 'recreates' opportunities she lost with Shinji because she can't stand failure, and I think the sex was another one of those recreated moments. She took him to the "Wall of Jericho" room and did it on the futon, rather than their beds, because that's the original place where she broached the idea and he missed it.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:08 pm

I really don't see how you can reconcile this with Asuka's incredibly blunt in-your-face sexual advance upon finding out about what happened in the hospital. If she'd already ahem propositioned him into a sexual experience her bitterness over the masturbation doesn't really make any sense.

I also don't see how it's necessary for Asuka to have said I need you to Shinji off screen simply because of the placement of the title card. That's simply commentary on the human condition, that people need each other even though they cause each other pain.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby anonymaus » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:27 pm

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:I really don't see how you can reconcile this with Asuka's incredibly blunt in-your-face sexual advance upon finding out about what happened in the hospital. If she'd already ahem propositioned him into a sexual experience her bitterness over the masturbation doesn't really make any sense.


You're talking about this scene.

I could make an entire thread about that scene. I originally thought it was about possessiveness, then I thought she was angry that he masturbated, and I finally realized that she was angry that he hid it. The anomalous wording of her last line in that scene finally makes sense when you consider what was shown 500 milliseconds before it.
"If all of you can't be mine, then I don't want any part of you." Right after a shot of the hospital scene. She's talking about his libido. She's also calling him a hypocrite more generally. He just accused her of hiding her feelings, and she shows him that he hid his, too.

I also don't see how it's necessary for Asuka to have said I need you to Shinji off screen simply because of the placement of the title card.

You need to read the thread I linked on the subject, it isn't very long. You'll understand then. There was an original placement of that title card that confirms it's Asuka-to-Shinji sentiment.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:25 am

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:
As this image shows, Asuka was crushed that Shinji didn't breach the "Wall of Jericho."
Here is that scene. She actually implies sex right before the Wall of Jericho line.
https://streamable.com/v5mkg


The way this reads to me is the same way as the circumstances of the kiss. Asuka was awake when she went to lay down with Shinji and he nearly kissed her, her knowledge of what happened the next day confirms tha.

It's not evidence of a sex scene if it also works with a kiss scene.

Which piece of evidence here wouldn't work with just the kiss scene?
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:33 am

My eyes have seen the light. My mind has been open to the possibilities. Asuka and Shinji DID have sex between episodes 15 and 16, but not just because of any evidences written upon thus far. My friends, more specific evidence is hiding in the darker aspect of Evangelion.

Follow me into the spoiler tag below, my faithful children, and let me explain to you how I came across this wondrous truth.

Juicy Details  SPOILER: Show
It all starts in Episode 10, you see. Episode 10 is the most important episode in the entire Evangelion franchise. It's more important than Episode 24, it's more important than Episode 22... Heck, it's even more important than EoE and Eva Q. In Episode 10 we are introduced to two major themes: Sex and Death. We're introduced to the concept of sex via the imagery of the vagina-shaped volcano mouth, with Asuka's semen-colored D Suit (or whatever it's called) entering in order to awaken (or "Fertilize") an Angel egg. After which, she causes its death and almost dies herself. As she sinks lower into the Volgino (the official term for the vagina volcano from here on out) her suit begins to SQUEEZE. It's almost as though her Eva's suit is suffocating.

Fast forward to Episode 15. Asuka is frustrated that Kaji turned her down flat. She gives up. (You'll notice she never asks Kaji out again after this episode.) More than that, she is utterly depressed and defeated. The only option after such a thing? Suicide! Remembering her Eva's D Type equipment slowly suffocating back in Episode 10, she decides to try to hang herself. But again, just like in Episode 10, Shinji stops her. But, the two found the feeling of strangulation so erotic that they ended up experimenting with auto erotic asphyxiation that very night. We know that this happened between Episodes 15 and 16, because Episode 16 neatly bookends this moment by having Shinji sink in a hole similarly to how Asuka sunk into a hole in Episode 10. Plus, Shinji is even losing oxygen in Episode 16, much like how Asuka's units was suffocating in Episode 10. This further underlines the auto erotic asphyxiation they were experiencing between Episodes 15 and 16.

Here, you can see the echo of what's to come. It like poetry, sorta. They rhyme. Every stanza rhymes with the next one.

There are evidences, though, that solidify this theory into New Gospel Truth after Episode 16. In the first version of the extended episode for 22, you see a title-card that flashes the words "Sex Death." This is in clear reference to the auto erotic asphyxiation that Shinji and Asuka were doing between Episodes 15 and 16. After which, Asuka again attempts suicide. But, since hanging herself will only remind her of Shinji, she instead opts for slitting her wrists in the bathtub of an abandoned, bombed-out house. She chooses something other than suffocation because she now associates the action with the pleasurable auto erotic asphyxiation that she experienced with Shinji between Episodes 15 and 16.

Episodes 22 and 24 are really instrumental to this theory. It's so dense, every single image has so many things going on.

The whole auto erotic asphyxiation theory is undeniably proven by The End of Evangelion, though. You see, we've been misinterpreting the strangulation scene at the end of the film this whole time! You see, all Shinji was doing at the end of the film was realizing that he and Asuka had to procreate in order to repopulate the Earth. (Sure, humanity can come back from Instrumentality whenever it wants to... but who wants to live on a planet where Shinji and Asuka are the only two other people on it?) So Shinji fires up the old auto erotic asphyxiation techniques that he performed between Episodes 15 and 16, and he and Asuka start making their way to Boinktown and Babymakingville.

So you see, my dear children, Shinji and Asuka did have sex between episodes 15 and 16. More specifically, they practiced auto erotic asphyxiation. A LOT. (Can it still be called "AUTO erotic asphyxiation" if two people are doing it to each other together? I dunno.)
Last edited by FreakyFilmFan4ever on Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:50 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby anonymaus » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:55 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:It's not evidence of a sex scene if it also works with a kiss scene.

Which piece of evidence here wouldn't work with just the kiss scene?

I don't know if you misread the post or something
It doesn't seem like you're replying to the part you quoted, but if you're trying to say Asuka was implying that they'd be kissing all night in that scene you'd be wrong.

I don't know why you quoted one sentence from the next paragraphs also. And there are also 800 words in my post and 27 in yours, so anyone who's familiar with math can see there's a problem of points not being addressed.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:10 am

^^
I think you forgot your [/sarc] tag

^
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:02 am

I can poke 2 really large holes in this.

Firstly everything is predicated on the idea that the sex scene is meant to be a literal physical event. But I'm pretty sure it was Reichu who did a crop of the groundwork angry face from the sex scene and the groundwork version of the female chest that appears during the what do you wish for scene and they matched. This casts serious doubt on the idea of it being anything but one of Shinji's fantasies being used as a metaphor to frame the interactions of disembodied souls.

Secondly the bedrolls...Everyone is aware Shinji and Asuka both have beds in their rooms right? And the only times the bedrolls are used outside of episode 9 are when Kaji or Kaworu were staying over?
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby anonymaus » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:12 am

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:Firstly everything is predicated on the idea that the sex scene is meant to be a literal physical event. But I'm pretty sure it was Reichu who did a crop of the groundwork angry face from the sex scene and the groundwork version of the female chest that appears during the what do you wish for scene and they matched. This casts serious doubt on the idea of it being anything but one of Shinji's fantasies being used as a metaphor to frame the interactions of disembodied souls.


Why in the world would that mean it's a fantasy? You can certainly wish for something you've had before.
As for the specifics of what you're talking about, I noticed it too, see the red-boxed bit in this thread. It's not an exact 'match' as you say, although the hair looks the same.

Secondly the bedrolls...Everyone is aware Shinji and Asuka both have beds in their rooms right? And the only times the bedrolls are used outside of episode 9 are when Kaji or Kaworu were staying over?

I already explained this in the post at the top of the page, go re-read the part that says 3)

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby pwhodges » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:51 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:^^
I think you forgot your [/sarc] tag

But it's so much more fun when people don't get it!
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby anonymaus » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:06 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:My eyes have seen the light. My mind has been open to the possibilities. Asuka and Shinji DID have sex between episodes 15 and 16, but not just because of any evidences written upon thus far. My friends, more specific evidence is hiding in the darker aspect of Evangelion.

Follow me into the spoiler tag below, my faithful children, and let me explain to you how I came across this wondrous truth.


Why is it allowed for people to pollute my thread with shit like this? Could Evageeks staff please try to maintain the illusion of impartiality?

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:30 am

Auto erotic asphyxiation is more of an interpretive thing. Anno is being coy about its presentation, because he obviously can’t show it on broadcast television. You can believe it or not believe it if you want, and it won’t effect your chosen interpretation of the show.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby anonymaus » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:31 am

You are a hilarious comedy king. This is all gold. Keep it up.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby pwhodges » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:06 pm

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:Why is it allowed for people to pollute my thread with shit like this?

Because individuals don't own threads in a public forum, perhaps.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby anonymaus » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:35 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Because individuals don't own threads in a public forum, perhaps.

Hey dude, the site has rules. If you're not going to enforce them fairly because you're angry at me for disagreeing with you or 'rocking the boat' or whatever other petty bullshit plagues the mind of people who spend their time moderating evageeks, why do you have the rules in the first place? You should really place a disclaimer that says "If we don't like you, your threads are free to be shit on by anyone and everyone."

This is really just hilarious that you're actually trying to keep up this appearance. If I went into another thread and posted the level of retarded 'trolling' bullshit he's posted just now I would've been banned, and when it comes to my thread you're not only withholding punishment, you actually make a point of joining in and posting some bullshit yourself just to make it crystal clear that the staff dislike me and my threads are open game.

How does a community reach this degree of "ol' boys club" circlejerking that disagreeing with the administrators marks you for this sort of treatment? Evageeks is insanely pathetic. None of you even give a shit about Evangelion any more, you use the site as some kind of pseudo-Facebook where you have privileged positions you can abuse against people who you engage in one-sided drama with.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:16 pm

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:But I'm pretty sure it was Reichu who did a crop of the groundwork angry face from the sex scene and the groundwork version of the female chest that appears during the what do you wish for scene and they matched.

The composited (not cropped) image was made by NAveryW, and it was just for humorous purposes. Asuka is not smooshing her boobs together while she yells at Shinji in bed; she's propping herself up on her arms.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:22 pm

I’m sorry. I didn’t realize that I was breaking any rules. I mean, part of being impartial would mean allowing discussions of all kinds of sexual things that Shinji and Asuka might have been doing between episodes 15 and 16. And since there is a strong visual motif of strangulation and suffocation between Shinji and Asuka in the series, it is completely plausible (in my mind) that auto erotic asphyxiation would be the type of sex these two characters are into.

Now, you’re more than welcome to provide another point of view that challenges mine. That’s what this thread is for. (Or, so I thought.) I’m sure that there would be a chance that my theory could be easily debunked if it was indeed falsifiable or otherwise verifiable. Discuss my theory. No need to attack me.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:04 pm

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:Hey dude, the site has rules.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:26 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:The composited (not cropped) image was made by NAveryW, and it was just for humorous purposes. Asuka is not smooshing her boobs together while she yells at Shinji in bed; she's propping herself up on her arms.


Humorous intent or not it lined up far too cleanly for me to believe it was a fluke. I'm not contending it's supposed to be a 1 to 1 repeat. Nothing during the mind meld is 1 to 1 repeat. I mean at one point we have Misato putting on a shirt Asuka is already wearing because they mashed together scenes from 2 separate episodes. It's all a metaphoric hodgepodge.

My apologies to NAvery though. It's hard to keep track of everything that happened 8-10 years ago.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:02 pm

I just realized that Asuka’s mom committing suicide by hanging gives more weight to the auto erotic asphyxiation theory. There are also several images in Ep 22 where Asuka’s doll is similarly being hung. Seeing Anno take that harmful action and turn it into a sign of affection is really uplifting, especially when seeing it places at the end of EoE like that.


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