Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby one-eyed » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:36 pm

Cybermat47 wrote:Hope will lead you everywhere. How can you go on in your darkest moments without hope?


It depends on your interpretation. Many would say that Hope is the mother of despair. When the gods wanted to destroy someone first gave him 40 years of prosperity to fall to be more painful.

Shinji had to keep living, but Anno never said why. The romantics insist that it is for each to find their own answer, but I think Anno did not know what motive to give, so he was wandering (for days? Weeks? Months? Years?) and building a cemetery, before Asuka mysteriously appear. As far as we know the two starved to death and soon after the scene appeared and depending on the time between Shinji leave the sea and the end of the movie he may have gone crazy and probably probably did not remember who Asuka was.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:44 pm

2 weeks is the best guess anyone has come up with for how long he was alone. Which is far too long for anyone to go without water. And doesn't even get into the absurdity of suggesting Rei and Yui would let him choose life just to be doomed to starve to death.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Reichu » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:42 pm

There's a town nearby. He's probably been looting it for supplies and returning to the beach repeatedly to keep a watch-out for returners.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby one-eyed » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:08 am

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:And doesn't even get into the absurdity of suggesting Rei and Yui would let him choose life just to be doomed to starve to death.

Choosing to live also means accepting to die. Starving and thirsty is not my first choice for how to die (I would rather die in my sleep!), but no one chooses how will die unless kill themselves (and Anno is against it!). In the situation where he is in EoE it would even be better to have been shot in the head by JSDF soldiers.


Reichu wrote: There's a town nearby. He's probably been looting it for supplies and returning to the beach repeatedly to keep a watch-out for returners.


This only prolonged his agony. Until he is finally given up, thrown himself on the edge of the beach, completely insane, and probably hoping to die.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:20 am

Stillborn, are you hacking other people's accounts already?

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby one-eyed » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:28 am

My God! Of course not! I'm another guy, can not you see by the way of writing? My english is not very good and sometimes I get bogged down in grammar when I write a lot!
P.S.: Do you think Stillborn is the only person who found EoE a nihilistic story?

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby xanderkh » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:52 pm

^
No, but you both are being equally as depressing.

Ever wonder why people flock to Evangelion, or a least people who have struggled with social situations or depression? Because Evangelion resonates with them, because we have been there. And the message of hope at EoE or the TV series (regardless of how big you you think it is or not) does have the capacity to help people find a reason to improve and make their lives "paradise", even when their "world" has supposedly ended. That's the nature of the human spirit, to endure and find hope when everything seems hopeless.

And no, hopeful is not synonymous with naiveity or pretending that nothing is wrong. It recognizes what's wrong in the world, and allows us to envision how we could be better or at least strive to.

Cause, what's the alternative as being nihilistic? Doing nothing but commenting how broken the system is? It's one thing address the problems of the system, but then there's another of just giving in to despair and not doing anything to change the world, or simply giving up to change it.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:33 pm

I don't get nihilism at all, my reaction to it is literally the same question Rei asked Shinji. Why are you here? Why constantly subject yourselves to a franchise that triggers that feeling?

I see the sequence behind Shinji,Rei, and Kawrou right before Shinji regained physical form to at the very least be a promise to Shinji if not an outright glimpse into the future for the sake of the audience. The barren red earth refilling with humans, changing from red to blue once again, the empty city refilling with people. Humanity endures, life goes on. We already saw trees around the town so we know plants came back outside of ground zero and Asuka's return is the first step in fulfilling the promise.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Sachi » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:49 pm

Eva is not nihilistic. It is a work dealing heavily with existentialism, but never does it come to the conclusion that everything is meaningless; quite the opposite, it encourages us to persist and create our own purpose. The struggle with existence is meaningful in of itself.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby xanderkh » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:54 pm

^

Exactly, and that's the PROBLEM with all these "nihilist fans" who think how EoE ended, it means nothing matters because "Shinji FAILED", when it was quite the opposite. Shinji STOPPED instrumentality and gave humanity the chance to return. It will take a long time to recover, but the possibility is still there.

Apparently though, just because the possibility of hope is still there, the nihilists are the extreme of the "glass half-empy variety" and seem to believe that any struggle is not worth the end result, because they don't seem to believe that it's "equal" to the result.

News flash, life is all about struggle. That's what gives the destination of our journey meaning, because if everything was handed to you on a silver platter, what would be the point of anything?
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:06 pm

If every warmonger in the history had its riches on a silver plate and didn't needed to struggle for it, war would be pointless, unless if we're going to argue that war is actually a good thing that last time I've seen it...well...it is not.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby xanderkh » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:11 pm

^

Why do you guys feel the need to try to overwrite every hopeful message we try to say into some extremist negative views to the point where the tangent doesn't even makes sense?

Is reality that bleak to you all that you have to bring us down to your level to "enlighten" us?

What's wrong with trying to make the world better, or struggling to better yourself? That's how we grow as both an individual and culture. Learning from mistakes of the past. No one is perfect, because if everything was perfect, what would be the point of even living?
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:25 pm

I could go on a rant about how, yes, there are fictional and IRL factions that are so extreme in their behavior, that murder people en masse simple because they're different and by their very nature do necessitate war as unfortunate as it is. Not even bringing up how many people would be okay constantly surrendering their liberties to a never ending stream of despots or even what keeps them from fighting each other even if everyone else bends over. But I get the feeling this would all be ignored. Seriously this extreme nihilistic attitude would allow the world to become such a shitty place I cannot understand it. What is the appeal to this?
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:29 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:^

Why do you guys feel the need to try to overwrite every hopeful message we try to say into some extremist negative views to the point where the tangent doesn't even makes sense?

Is reality that bleak to you all that you have to bring us down to your level to "enlighten" us?

What's wrong with trying to make the world better, or struggling to better yourself? That's how we grow as both an individual and culture. Learning from mistakes of the past. No one is perfect, because if everything was perfect, what would be the point of even living?


I am not trying to bring anyone to my level, all what I said in the topic is that Anno maybe did wanted to nail his point and that the fact that Shinji and Asuka ended up miserable doesn't negate it, after all, as people said humanity and life would come back.

Now that is just my opinion about life, I am not trying to depress people because 'buh! Life is senseless and it should be always senseless!'

So? For me life is senseless, because a subjective meaning only matters to whoever considers it, objectively life is senseless, subjectively? Well, whatever you think.

Now regarding learning from the past, humanity always learned that war is a expensive, worthless, evil task, still we didn't learned anything, now look, there's nothing wring into making oneself better, I do even find great when people become better, but it doesn't seem like people did learned anything, I do even wonder if they actually want to learn.

When I said 'We' I do not mean you or anyone here, but the common 'We'.

But the thing is, I do heard too much about 'if everything was perfect, what would be the point' and all what I think is that if life's value is subjective (some do not see any value in themselves and life itself), calling such a perfect existence senseless has as much worth as calling this life meaningful.

Objectively both are senseless, so life's purpose is entirely subjective, so a perfect existence's value is measured by the individual, as a imperfect one.
Last edited by Lt Light Ark on Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby xanderkh » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:31 pm

^

It's simply what the modern term is called "Edgelord/Joker Philosophy", thinking that being negative about the world and not caring equates to some manner of maturity. That becoming unfeeling or uncaring makes you a more "heightened" individual.

But that type of mentality is not maturity, it's regression. Simply put: it's giving up and just spouting out schlep to make you feel more powerful, instead of actually making an effort to make the world a better place.

I'm okay with cynacism, because it at least equates to being honest and realizing that there's a problem that needs fixing. Nihilism however does nothing to solve the problems and just accepts that life sucks. That is stagnancy to an extreme.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:38 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:^

It's simply what the modern term is called "Edgelord/Joker Philosophy", thinking that being negative about the world and not caring equates to some manner of maturity. That becoming unfeeling or uncaring makes you a more "heightened" individual.

But that type of mentality is not maturity, it's regression. Simply put: it's giving up and just spouting out schlep to make you feel more powerful, instead of actually making an effort to make the world a better place.

I'm okay with cynacism, because it at least equates to being honest and realizing that there's a problem that needs fixing. Nihilism however does nothing to solve the problems and just accepts that life sucks. That is stagnancy to an extreme.


Edgelords actually praise people's suffering and are sociopathically selfish, how is that nihilistic? A nihilist just doesn't see the point in anything.

Joker and Edgelords are just sociopaths that flaunts a term that was bad explained, hell TV tropes even call that sort of 'nihilism' you're stating as 'Straw Nihilism'

You see? Straw of Strawmen.

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Postby xanderkh » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:53 pm

And how is your definition of "nihilism" any different than "straw nihilism"?

Even earlier, you kept telling us that Shinji's release from Instrumentality was only prolonging the "agony" as it were, when he was trying to survive; not to mention the comment of saying "choosing to live also means choosing to die", and how am I not supposed to not interpret that as "Straw Nihilism".

You even said earlier that "romantics" choose to say that life is worth living, without giving a substantial reason WHY. In the same vein aside from your opinion, why would nihilism even be a viable option?

If it just comes down to "opinion", I guess its safe to say we're both Strawmen. And now I'm hungry for some vegetables. :)
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:17 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:And how is your definition of "nihilism" any different than "straw nihilism"?

Even earlier, you kept telling us that Shinji's release from Instrumentality was only prolonging the "agony" as it were, when he was trying to survive; not to mention the comment of saying "choosing to live also means choosing to die", and how am I not supposed to not interpret that as "Straw Nihilism".

You even said earlier that "romantics" choose to say that life is worth living, without giving a substantial reason WHY. In the same vein aside from your opinion, why would nihilism even be a viable option?

If it just comes down to "opinion", I guess its safe to say we're both Strawmen. And now I'm hungry for some vegetables. :)


When did I even said that?

No no, you're still a strawmen and will need to prove that I said those things, meanwhile I am far away of any strawman, unlike you, stop shoving words in my mouth.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Sachi » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:20 pm

Light Ark: let us not devolve into "NO U" posting, please.

In fact, let's all get back into something resembling the topic. These tangents are killing me.
- Sachi

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:24 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:Light Ark: let us not devolve into "NO U" posting, please.

In fact, let's all get back into something resembling the topic. These tangents are killing me.


He is saying that I said two things that I never said in this topic, it is obvious that I will ask for proofs.

I did not said anything about Shinji and agony or whatever.


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