Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby Justacrazyguy » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:12 am

Hopefully a topic like this doesn't exist already

So, we all know how divisive Evangelion was and is. It's widely considered a classic by many but there is also no shortage of people that think it's pretentious trash. A fate that affects nearly every widely know piece of entertainment really.

Then came in the rebuilds and it seems the reactions only got even more divided. To begin there are those that still think the Rebuilds are just a way to make easy cash. Yeah, it makes tons of money, sure, but if the idea was just to give fanservice to the fans 2.0 and 3.0 were real weird decisions. And yet, this opinion remains. Putting aside this one, most people I see don't even like the Rebuilds, 3.0 being the most hated right now, by far.
Even in this forum many dislike the rebuilds. Personally I don't like the rebuilds as much as the original series, but I think they're still good movies, especially 3.0.

Is Evageeks that isolated from the rest of the internet that the consensus opinion seems strange to me?
Do I care too much about what people outside of here think?probably


Do you feel the same way as me? Have you seen any strange or confusing opinions on the rebuilds floating around?
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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:40 am

It's pretty typical to see

Jo/1 = Fine or Good
Ha/2 = Awesome
Q/3 = Dogshit

I try not to worry about it too much, since "people" is just an amorphous blob created by our brain's need for generalization. All that really matters are the opinions of people you respect, like your friends, since those actually mean something. Everything else is just noise.

I share your sentiment, "Personally I don't like the rebuilds as much as the original series, but I think they're still good movies, especially 3.0." There are many things I dislike about Q, but ultimately I have to love it, and here's why:

me, somewhere else wrote:[What Q is really about is] what do you do after you fuck up bad.
How do you break from the cycle of fucking up and stop self-sabotaging or letting shitty people take advantage of your weakness.
How do you make amends with the people who matter.
Impacts are just a metaphor for one's psychological world.
When you mess up in life, it's like your world has ended, even if, like Shinji in 2.0, you don't realize what you did until much later.

Anno's brutal emotional honesty is his greatest asset as an artist, to me. It draw and repels in equal measure. The way he mythologizes dysfunctional behavioral patterns and ways of escaping them is simply exquisite.

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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby anonymaus » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:10 pm

Evangelion's primary strength is the depth of its characters. The plot was basically just an excuse to explore the characters.
In Rebuild the characters are gutted, that's why it's bad. They didn't go into the characters at all in Rebuild either because that wouldn't be merch-buyer-friendly or because they didn't have time in the movie format to deliver both the whole Evangelion plot and the whole Evangelion character breadth.
Regardless of the reason it takes away the primary reason most people enjoyed NGE.

The third movie is also a disaster in so many ways. It doesn't get talked about often, but the setting itself is terrible. People enjoy aesthetics in animation. The entire world and all of the backgrounds being a wrecked unnatural red mess for 2 long hours is just painful for the eyes. Humans like to look at green and blue, it's one of those things that lives deep in our spinal cord.

The plot for 3.0 is also obnoxious and lacks the indulgence and emotional impact NGE had. The majority of it is dedicated to a homosexual romance subplot - what percentage of the audience is gay? 3-5%, statistically speaking? It was poorly thought out fujoshi bait to increase merch sales. Kaworu being confined to one episode in the original made perfect sense.

Just about the only thing in the Rebuilds that's good is the action scenes, and those are still inferior to the action in EoE.

I feel like many people on Evageeks have an automatic hipster response that makes them tend to disagree with public opinion on the Rebuilds, and they also don't want to admit to themselves that the new stuff is bad. They want it to be good, as Evangelion fans. I understand that, but I still won't deny reality. New Eva is barely Eva at all. It's been sterilized of what made the original special and reduced to just another mecha action spectacle/merch vehicle.

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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:23 pm

What Reichu said.
1.0 is okay.
2.0 is "the best thing ever!"
3.0 is "the worst thing ever!"

Like her, I also tend not to worry what other faceless online "people" think. In a one-on-one or group discussion it's a very different matter where you can listen to one another and see where each other is coming from but anonymous crowds online are almost always without merit. Especially because in online crowds it's usually the most vocal & obnoxious voices on either side that stand out the most and skew the average. So the 5% that really love this film/series/book/etc will be super vocal about why they love it and oddly enough because some people flourish on negativity, the 5% that really hate it will be even more vocal about why they don't.
I would bet the majority of people who view the Rebuilds perfectly enjoy them as well produced, high budget feature films. They just don't bother spending their free time debating or talking about the films online. Even now with the internet being such a central part of everyones lives now any discourse about a film or TV series online at most will make up 10% of the viewing audience. Basically, these "general reactions" are almost always made up of a super minority talking online.
These "general reactions" can be especially loud when it comes to niche fields like anime where the general response is almost always based on initial assumptions, prurient interests & hyperbole. These presumptions are then naturally exasperated when you're dealing with long running franchises like Evangelion where expectations and fan wants are deeply entrenched from years of connection to the material and they're not all that accepting of twists or surprises.

While the people on this forum may feel different personally, few "anime fans" outside going into an Evangelion movie want it to be a truly original experience, let alone one that challenges them on any emotional level, they want the artists to just play the hits.

If I can be crass for a moment, 2.0 intentionally leaned into prurient fan interests, especially MALE prurient fan interests - Rei & Asuka trying to win Shinji's affections, a-day-in-the-life scenes of Tokyo III, the kids going on fun excursions like in all that spin-off material they love, a new Girl Eva pilot!, cool Evangelion power-ups!, Shinji stops "being a pussy" and "wins the girl", etc - only to then directly subvert all of those in 3.0 - Rei & Asuka lives do NOT revolve around Shinji's affection, there is no more day-in-a-life material, the kids are broken apart and not all buddy-buddy like in that spin-off material we love, the new Girl Eva pilot is not a new romantic interest, there's all these new Evas but none are the ones we've grown connections to, Shinji is back to "being a pussy" and a third of the movie are scenes that are "very homo". It's not surprising to see the online discourse about the films is so opinionated. Male fans, especially a certain type of male fan - young, quick to anger or joy, still learning to express themselves, often horny, new or alien to romance & sex - were given a very warm blanket of fan entitlement with 2.0 - 1.0 is a good movie but because it so adherently sticks to the original it truly is prologue in all this - that when 3.0 absolutely refuted those expectations for something more emotionally in-your-face, austere & narratively stripped down it's not surprised they turned on the film. No one HAS to like 3.0 but even if you hate the film it's difficult to argue it's without merit. There are many reviews you can find online by angry young men where the film is a 0.5/10 speak volumes about the reviewer & say nothing about the film itself.

The Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons continues to be a pretty astute observation of how nerdy fanbases treat the things they proclaim to love.

Either way, I don't think EvaGeeks is any more isolated than all other fan sites on the web. We just discuss this series A LOT more than necessary and are willing to go a little deeper than "It this fun or not?". We would know if the majority of people hated the Rebuilds because the film series either would A) be cancelled or B) people would be entirely indifferent to the Final movie getting released. The films have not been cancelled and there still is genuine interest for the third film. I think in majority people have enjoyed the Rebuild films. Yes, 3.0 is probably the least liked of the three so far but 3.0 is also the one that asks the most of the audience and is the most aligned with where Anno's sensibilities as an artist lie (he's a very big I'm-making-my-point filmmaker) and is the least interested in being pure entertainment. I'll always repeat that if Anno was just in this for the money it would have been very easy to follow up the second film with a third movie that plays into the same sensibilities - Asuka & Rei are still affectionate towards the cool hero pilot Shinji and now have to worry about these damn newbies Kaworu & Mari stealing him away, wouldn't it be great to be our protagonist and have these many people falling all over you?- but he took a real risk.

Anywho, it will be interesting to see how the online discourse is about 3.0 when the films are done. I do think 3.0 by the general online crowd will always be treated as the red-headed step child of the bunch - I.E. Anger tweets about how "it's not fun and Misato is such a bitch" - but will be better accepted by that same crowd when it's part of the overall story and not where it ends off. Kind of like how peoples reaction to the narrative ending in Episode 24 & the thematic TV series ending in Eps 25 & 26 - all great episodes on their own - would be treated vastly different if there was no End of Evangelion.

Anywho, those are my two cents. The Rebuilds can't compete with NGE because that was lighting in a bottle, but they're still very good movies that the majority of people get some enjoyment out of. The vocal super-nerd communities are just very vocal in what they like & dislike and that is very rarely a good showing of the general mindset.
Last edited by Gendo'sPapa on Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:33 pm

At the superficial level, the current state on /a/ is roughly that 1.x is forgotten, 2.x is regarded as pandering to Reifags, and 3.x an overcorrection for Asukafags and Kaworufags that came about because Anno felt that his waifu and husubando had been losing badly to Team Blue.

While there may be some occasional shreds of insight, most of the talk is tribal clashes between the anti-Shikinami and anti-Rei factions.
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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby Blockio » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:56 pm

Reichu wrote:It's pretty typical to see

Jo/1 = Fine or Good
Ha/2 = Awesome
Q/3 = Dogshit

This is generally my experience as well, Q is being bashed quite a lot simply for daring to be different from NGE. I could (and probably will at some pojnt) go into great detail, but for now two anecdotes that pretty much sum up the two main opinions one might call "consensus" on the rebuilds (consensus being used very loosely, because on the one hand there really is no such thing - as shown by the fact that there are two of them - and on the other hand, like it has been touched on before, it is mostly a tiny, but very vocal part of the fandom):
A while back I was watching Ha and Q with a friend of mine, who has never seen the rebuilds and, while recognising the impact it had on the industry, is generally very critical of Evangelion. He very much enjoyed Ha (even going as far as saying that the fight against Zeruel was brilliantly executed), but (albeit because we were running out of time), we skipped almost a third of Q - same thing happened when I binged all three with another friend who likes the show as much as I do, this time we skipped the entire middle section of Q from after Mark.09's raid on the Wunder to the activation of Eva 13.

On the other hand, a good part of my social media feed is flooded with people defending that exact middle section of Q (admittedly, most of them are KawoShin shippers or AsuShin/ReiShin antishippers, but thats a topic for another day), while religiously bashing the beginning and end section for "not being Eva anymore"

I am however "guilty" of liking Ha more than Q myself, so I guess take everything I said with a grain of salt. (Although I tend to defend Q quite a lot when I feel like people are missing the point of it or hating on it just for the sake of doing so)

Mr. Tines wrote:At the superficial level, the current state on /a/ is roughly that 1.x is forgotten, 2.x is regarded as pandering to Reifags, and 3.x an overcorrection for Asukafags and Kaworufags that came about because Anno felt that his waifu and husubando had been losing badly to Team Blue.

While there may be some occasional shreds of insight, most of the talk is tribal clashes between the anti-Shikinami and anti-Rei factions.

...which is the exact reason I avoid /a/ altogether.
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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:22 pm

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:I feel like many people on Evageeks have an automatic hipster response that makes them tend to disagree with public opinion on the Rebuilds

EGF is on top of the new movies as soon as they're out in Japan. The regulars here start forming their opinions long before the "public opinion" you refer to even EXISTS. There's a public opinion in Japan, sure, but there's a cultural barrier in the way and some effort is required to even figure out what the Japanese consensus is. (Unsurprisingly: doesn't seem all that different.) So we aren't beholden to that, nor are we beholden to our initial impressions of the films. Some of the people who hated Q at first grew to appreciate it. Some of the people who hated Ha at first grew to appreciate it. Etc. Everyone is different. You'll find some of these so-called "hipster" types anywhere, but who cares? Most of us are more than capable of explaining why we think and feel the way we do, and there is more to it than "Meh! I just lean in the direction opposite wherever the sun is shining".

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:We just discuss this series A LOT more than necessary

:hitthetable:

Nice thorough takedown on the matter, though. Thanks for writing it up, GP!

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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby anonymaus » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:59 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote: The regulars here start forming their opinions long before the "public opinion" you refer to even EXISTS.


Nor are we beholden to our initial impressions of the films. Some of the people who hated Q at first grew to appreciate it. Some of the people who hated Ha at first grew to appreciate it.


The argument you made is that Evageeks can't be hipsters because they watch the movies before all others (which is silly to begin with, by the way--most people here don't live in Japan to catch screenings or speak Japanese,) then you say that their opinions change? Sounds exactly like a hipster response to me if your opinion 180s as soon as you find out the public's.

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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:24 pm

^
If you look back to the Q immediate reactions thread -- recently bumped to the front page -- you'll see that some forum members were indeed there for early showings (even if their posts follow some pages after the immediate relaying of the reactions scraped from 2ch and the fevered speculation they engender), and that as soon as anything escaped onto the internet it got swarmed over. So, yes, there are enough obsessives here that the films get fair analysis early.

That included (and you can do the digging yourself) the early shift from the immediate and superficial "Shinji grew a spine at last!" to the growing realisation "Wait a minute -- didn't he just royally fuck up there?" at the end of Ha.
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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby Sachi » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:25 pm

Reichu is just saying that opinions change over time, naturally. Initial reactions to a film are not always going to be the same when you revisit it. Some films require multiple viewings in order to gain a full appreciation for. It can be seen in films that employ effective twists that change the previous understanding of events, such as in The Sixth Sense; you have to watch it again with knowledge of the twist so that you can appreciate the build up. End of Evangelion is also a perfect example of a film that requires time to settle and absorb in order to truly appreciate, as indicated by how many of us had the initial reaction of "WTF DID I JUST WATCH". The Rebuild series is very similar in this regard, and over time some people have simply warmed up to the films. Not everybody, but a decent amount of people.
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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:03 pm

It was realised quite quickly that Q benefitted from multiple viewings - I recall that it was even felt that the film's success in Japan theatres was increased because of people doing just that. I think the wide-spread realisation that reviewing Jo and Ha after seeing Q would reveal that they had more foreshadowing in them than previously realised came along a little later.
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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby xanderkh » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:15 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:Reichu is just saying that opinions change over time, naturally. Initial reactions to a film are not always going to be the same when you revisit it. Some films require multiple viewings in order to gain a full appreciation for. It can be seen in films that employ effective twists that change the previous understanding of events, such as in The Sixth Sense; you have to watch it again with knowledge of the twist so that you can appreciate the build up. End of Evangelion is also a perfect example of a film that requires time to settle and absorb in order to truly appreciate, as indicated by how many of us had the initial reaction of "WTF DID I JUST WATCH". The Rebuild series is very similar in this regard, and over time some people have simply warmed up to the films. Not everybody, but a decent amount of people.


Not to mention our reaction to it would significantly change with Final. I'll admit it, I was in the severely negative camp when it came to 3.33's story initially, and I'm still a bit biased to this day; but I do believe that Anno does have a plan for Final that will be an optimistic tone. After all, 3.33's tale was enough to depress him just as EoE depressed him back in the day, and if this film is akin to Anno's own life, there's only one direction it can go: UP. :)
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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby Settie » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:30 pm

I think something to remember is that sites such as EVGks are as insular as any other fan sites of different fictional works, it's a place where things are discussed and analyzed, meaning that you arrive at a certain understanding of it that you wouldn't get from more casual places or discussions. This is particularly true for things like 3.0, such a departure from the original and previews films it was bound to create a sense of inside/outside perspectives.

I was definitely in the WTF camp when it comes to 3.0 after my initial viewing of it years ago, but re-watches and seeing discussions about it in places like this helped me understand it better. Initially i thought WILLIE were a bunch of dicks, now though, while i still think they're dicks my viewpoint evolved from cartoonishly antagonistic to still antagonistic but there's context there that's teased but not fully explored.

So when seeing perspectives about the rebuilds outside/inside of fansites like this, it can be jarring seeing a fairly positive opinion of it in one place to opinions that crap all over them in others (3.0 in particular). Yet i think it's important to listen and read opinions that we may not agree with as it can give a more complete understanding. For example i recently saw a Youtube review/commentary about 3.0 and while it did have the typical crude language, hyperbole, exaggerations and comparisons to NGE, i found some of the criticism made against it to be quite valid.

There's always going to be divisions and differing opinions, it comes with the territory. Their importance is only what you give them.

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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby FelipeFritschF » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:54 pm

I think it can be safely said that 3.33 is a movie that can't really be enjoyed so much as appreciated. At least EoE had some awesome imagery and the legendary Asuka fight scene, even if 70% of it was just Shinji whining, half of that in psychedelic group therapy. I couldn't really like it at first, but it did grow on me with time. I still think it's a generally messy, convoluted, and problematic movie, and more than once narrative decision is questionable... however I also think that it is by far the most interesting, refreshing and exciting of the Rebuilds. It is the best Evangelion, even if it's (nominally) the worst movie. Still, most of it is... hard to swallow. I think that, for better or worse, 3.0 will ultimately be validated by 3.0+1.0. Either that movie will be seriously fucking awesome, which will vindicate 3.0's risks and incongruities, giving them context and reason... or it will fail to achieve its goals, whatever they actually are, and 3.0 will just suck. I'm hoping for the former.

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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby kuribo-04 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:17 am

@anonymaus:

Regardless of the reason it takes away the primary reason most people enjoyed NGE.

I still enjoy them for the characters. They are movies, not a TV show, and thus use different ways to explore the characters, 3.0 especially being more metaphorical.

It doesn't get talked about often, but the setting itself is terrible. People enjoy aesthetics in animation. The entire world and all of the backgrounds being a wrecked unnatural red mess for 2 long hours is just painful for the eyes. Humans like to look at green and blue, it's one of those things that lives deep in our spinal cord

Then why is it the most appealing to me of the Rebuilds? I love red, and the movie was trying to depict a ruined world anyways.
Maybe this is just your taste?
The plot for 3.0 is also obnoxious and lacks the indulgence and emotional impact NGE had.

How do you measure the emotional impact though?
To me it was the same as with NGE.

The majority of it is dedicated to a homosexual romance subplot - what percentage of the audience is gay? 3-5%, statistically speaking? It was poorly thought out fujoshi bait to increase merch sales. Kaworu being confined to one episode in the original made perfect sense.

...
There's nobody saying it was a gay relationship, it works perfectly from a non-romantic angle as well. It's really open.
I do see some romantic tension, and I love the relationship. Am I gay? No. I don't think you need to be gay for that. A romantic relationship is a romantic relationship.
And the Kaworu-Shinji dynamic is obviously about much more anyways.

Also you are contradicting yourself. Suddenly you think Evangelion should appeal to the masses? So what if a low percentage of people is gay? They deserve art made for them as well, and in this case it isn't even a movie that just gays can enjoy (I have honestly never heard this before).

Just about the only thing in the Rebuilds that's good is the action scenes, and those are still inferior to the action in EoE.

How so?
The action in EoE was meant to be raw, brutal, realistic. In 3.0 it's meant to be weird, abstract. You are comparing very different action scenes.


I feel like many people on Evageeks have an automatic hipster response that makes them tend to disagree with public opinion on the Rebuilds

Unless you can read minds, there's no way for you to know this. And in discussions it's better to debate than to make suppositions.
I could also go and say that you don't enjoy Rebuild because you can't handle the fact that it's different. But I'm not since you provided other reasons.

New Eva is barely Eva at all. It's been sterilized of what made the original special and reduced to just another mecha action spectacle/merch vehicle.

3.0 is so Evangelion that it subverted expectations using the fact that people were so used to NGE that despite it being subversive, people were expecting a natural "Eva-progression", but nope.
That's as Evangelion as it gets. It's also a movie that comments on the franchise itself, just as NGE had meta-commentary.
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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:42 am

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:The majority of it is dedicated to a homosexual romance subplot

By simple mathematics, half of all acquaintances and friendships are likely to be same-sex. If you automatically see such friendships as homosexual, perhaps you should re-evaluate how you determine this.
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Can't wait for 3.0+1.0? - try Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

Mr. Tines
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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:28 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:automatically
The amount of official and semi-official KawoShin material rather skews how one evaluates this particular interaction, though. It's not just the fujoshi erasing the self-insert girl to pair the guys together as is more typical.
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics|G+|MAL
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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby Glor » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:22 am

View Original PostFelipeFritschF wrote:I think it can be safely said that 3.33 is a movie that can't really be enjoyed so much as appreciated.

Hah, that's an interesting way to put it, but I can agree with that. Although I'm incredibly fond of EoE, but maybe that's because it was the final installment of a series instead of somewhere between.

I don't know if anyone here other than a handful of users make it over to Sufficient Velocity very often, but the general consensus there, with a few exceptions, is that 3.0 is the worst thing ever, while opinions differ more over 2.0. What's interesting is that there's a small percentage of people there that either don't like NGE or have never watched it and experience it only through fanfiction.
Rite of Reclamation - an Evangelion/Halo fusion, check it out, is pretty neat.

"Anything can be Evangelion related if you have the will to twist it." -Joseki.

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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby Blockio » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:41 pm

View Original PostFelipeFritschF wrote:I think it can be safely said that 3.33 is a movie that can't really be enjoyed so much as appreciated.

Huh, I actually enjoy watching Q. The ~50% of top-notch fighting scenes seem a bit underrepresented in this thread, at least to me
Why don't you save the Princess next time instead of being such a baby? She would love it and maybe you could get a sweet kiss. ~ sadly not Mari in Q (Joseki)

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Re: Rebuild outside of Evageeks: Many reactions

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Postby kuribo-04 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:27 pm

I enjoy every second of the movie and I've watched it over 9000 times.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
"In any case, it (Kill la Kill) is the greatest work of fiction ever written and should be taught in schools." -Squigsquasher
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