Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:44 pm

I've always mentally lumped that in with B:TAS rather than thinking of it as its own thing.

It's not TAS at its best. I'd consider it middle of the road for the series. My favorite TAS episodes are Heart of Ice, Over the Edge, and Love is a Croc. Mask of the Phantasm defines the Joker too much and I prefer to quietly ignore it. During the shaky early start of TAS it was heavily inspired by Burton before it became its own thing.

The World's Finest 3-parter crossover episode that linked B:TAS with S:TAS and kicked off the DCAU is a better movie than Mask of the Phantasm imo.

I do love that they brought Andrea back for a brief cameo all those years later for Justice League Unlimited.

Mask of the Phantasm probably has the best "birth of Batman" scene from any of the movies, though: https://youtu.be/N6K1qNsE9v0?t=41s

Also, like every Batman variation must, TAS eventually addresses the elephant in the room of Batman perpetuating cycles with an episode titled Trial which is one of the better ones. It's exactly what it sounds like: The inmates at Arkham capture Batman and put him on trial in a kangaroo court.
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Julius » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:53 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:The thing about these interpretations is that they are all informed to some degree or another by Frank Miller (arguably, BvS is just an elaborate bit of mummery to bring the Superman/Batman fight from TDKR to the screen, context be damned) who wrote a series of comics where Batman is unabashedly, even proudly a fascist figure (and no, punching a muscular woman with swastikas on her tits (what the fuck, Frank?) doesn't make Batman anti-fascist, it's about more than symbols) who embodies several of the points of Eco's ur-fascism.

Short version: If you remove Batman from his context and strip him of his detective skills, pathos, and compassionate nature (To paraphrase Kingdom Come, Batman and Superman deep down share the same core values: They don't want to see anybody die) you leave him as a machismo fantasy of weapon and physical strenght obsessed class warfare against the poors and the weirdos.]


I am a huge fan of Batman,so i feel obliged to give my opinion on this.

Batman is a modern hero, and like such, does not seek trascendent goals. That being said,you don't seem to appreciate the realm of action very much..nor do you seem to have a clear understanding of said dimension. I'm not going to say that he doesn't have any fascist aspects, but that is too little,i mean Frank Miller himself suggested that the story of Batman may be a homo-fantasy... Talk about LACK of interpretations...

For starters Eco is a bad example, since his understanding of esoterism,or even fascism, is purely materialistic. Trust me,as someone who has read several of his books, i can say that he is a charlatan and a bad scholar.

There is a quote of an Hindu book called Bhagavad-Gita that, if i recall correctly says: "Anyone who is steady in his determination for the advanced stage of spiritual realization and can equally tolerate the onslaughts of distress and happiness is certainly a person eligible for liberation.”.

And, "“No one who does good work will ever come to a bad end, either here or in the world to come” . Now, these quotes can be applied to Batman,in certain occasions.Doesn't seem shallow at all ,to me.

Contemplation is not inherently superior to action,and the Myth of the Holy grail, Chivalry traditions, as well as many classical Myths, can confirm this statement. If anything, Batman, is a social apologue, and not even a bad one,by american standards.

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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:16 pm

http://variety.com/2018/film/news/black ... 202710282/

The critical and financial success of Wonder Woman and Black Panther (which is expected to cross the $1 Billion box office mark despite a February release) has theater owners asking Hollywood for more representation in blockbusters and a more distributed schedule (in place of the Summer/Christmas season release schedule for blockbuster movies).

Motivated by self interest of course, but still nice to see. Also they're right about the release schedules. It's annoying for theaters to be basically empty of anything fun for a few months of every year.
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Postby Ray » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:29 pm

None of this debate over is 'Batman a fascist or not' or is "Superman relevance in 2018?" matters anyway since they're going to reboot the whole goddamn thing with freaking Flashpoint anyway.

And yeah I do argue for extenuating circumstances. When you do have a literal God on Earth with ability to crack the Earth like an egg if he makes a mistake. Who's clearly Moody and has some sort of mental issues brought on by his childhood , being unable to interact with normal people because of worried he could physically hurt them. When the only other prominent example of his species is a Literal ( not Chuck's hyperbolic liberal interpretation of the term) fascist who wanted to exterminate the human race so he could rebuild his civilizations falling glory on the bones of humanity.

It makes total sense that someone would want to exterminate the threat to the human race.

Batman's character is not the biggest issue with Bvs.

I hope someone eventually proves me wrong but at this point DC is never going to be relevant ever again. Batman may be able to come back and mess the dceu is after Justice League, maybe even Wonder Woman but Superman won't ever be relevant ever again.

" the world changed and you wouldn't you bastard."
-Kingdom Come

The problem with Superman is this it alternate Lee comes down to something Hank Hill said about modern-day hipsters.

" they don't know what they want all they know is what they don't want"

All the audience knows is this they don't want Richard Donner Superman, they don't want Snyder Superman, they don't want Bryan singer's Pastiche of Donner they don't want campy Silver age Superman, they don't want grimdark 90 Superman.

So ultimately where does that leave the character where do you take the character when everyone doesn't want pretty much every interpretation of the character that's come before? Nowhere but the trash bin a pop culture history alongside Betty Boop.
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:51 pm

...They DO want a positive Superman, though! That was one of the number one criticisms of the direction that Zach Snyder took Superman: they made the character an Objectivist-style hero, and it didn't fit with who he was.

As for being justified in deciding immediately he's a threat, you're talking about a lot of information the audience is privy to...but the CHARACTERS are not. There's nothing to indicate that Batman knows what Superman's mindset is like, as Superman has (and does, in all of his scenes AS Superman, when interacting with people) portrayed himself as humble, polite, and generally friendly. There's very little basis for Batman's immediate decision that Superman is a threat.

And you can't use the battle in Gotham as justification, because there was another Kryptonian there. One who, had Superman NOT been present, would have destroyed the world.

But above all, there's a reason why the Christopher Reeve (and JLA Superman) are the ones many people like, and yes: it's because he's a boy-scout. For the most part (Christopher Reeve's Superman went in some strange directions). And the reason for that is BECAUSE Superman can crack the earth like an egg. Many writers have explored that, and shown that Superman (in his best boy-scout stories) deliberately plays up his humility, his good-nature, his patience, and his restraint, because he KNOWS he can be terrifying, and dangerous. He is an adult cage-fighter in a room full of squishy children, so he has to be extra-careful in how he presents himself, and how he handles them. And that's what makes a good Superman story: when he is eventually pushed to the point where he has to up the ante, to reveal his true power in pieces, against those opponents that require him to do so (Zod, Doomsday, etc.). When we can really see how powerful he is, and how restrained he is.

Now, if any, is the time we need a hero like that: someone who demonstrates patience and goodwill towards everyone, despite being able to initiate a holocaust on his own. That's why grimdark Superman rarely works.
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Postby Chuckman » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:12 pm

Writing a modern Superman story takes a level of skill and understanding that Warners seems unwilling to bring to the table. That's pretty much it.

Like I've said a few times, MoS deserves some credit for trying, but it spread in too many directions and didn't really attempt to answer any of the questions that it raises. Plus it makes the DCCU Superman seem like being Superman is kind of a pain in the ass. It would help a lot if they dropped the overwrought Jesus angle and just let him be Superman. Henry Cavill would be great for that, just blasting around with a shit-eating grin like he's thinking, "Yeah, I can fucking fly".

MoS and the DCCU as a whole insist on making him really awkward like he's put out by having to be Superman. It's like he doesn't even want to be there, which is bizarre given that Cavill seems to have a great time with it and he takes to the rare sunny moment like a fish to water.

Ray, you're kind of missing the point of Kingdom Come. Especially Magog's speech in which he makes the statement you quoted. Magog isn't angry that Superman refused to change, he's angry with himself that he failed to live up to Superman's standards.

Superman actually did change, which is the point of the story. He let the nihilism of the world overwhelm him and retreated to his fortress to grieve. Through the course of the story he is taken to a point of personal crisis as he gradually slips more and more towards being a "grimdark" character until McCay reminds him of who he is and he returns to his true self and casts aside vengeance.

Look at the full quote:

Your fault... you bastard. The world changed... but you wouldn't. So they chose me. They chose the man who would kill over the man who wouldn't... and now they're dead. A million ghosts. Punish me. Lock me away. Kill me. Just make the ghosts go away.


He's not complaining about what Superman did or didn't do, here. He's explicitly saying that the world made the wrong choice by embracing him and his approach to crime fighting. The world failed to live up to the example of Superman and rejected his ideals and suffered for it. He's accusing Superman of being too pure an ideal for everyone else to follow.

I mean, this isn't some wacky lolchuckman interpretation of the book. It's not even subtext, it's the plot. Look at another quote:

Norman: Listen to me, Clark. Of all the things you can do…all your powers…the greatest has always been your instinctive knowledge of right and wrong. It was a gift of your own humanity. You never had to question your choices. In any situation…any crisis…you knew what to do. But the minute you made the SUPER more important than the MAN. The day you decided to turn your back on mankind…that completely cost you your instinct. That took your judgment away.


Anyway the dumb thing about the "if there's even a 1% chance" thing in BvS is that, besides that line better belonging to Luthor...

It would be nice if the great detective did some detecting. In BvS, Batman doesn't figure out jack shit. He recovers no clues, he does no detective work, makes no deductions, gathers no evidence, doesn't think for himself. Luthor plays him like a tin fiddle, dictating his every move and handing him the information he needs to make the Goddamn Batman dance to his ludicrously overcomplicated and stupid plan.

Clark Kent is so sloppy with his secret identity (not to mention that you can become a reporter who is randomly assigned to different, highly specialized tasks on a seemingly random rotation without even going to college in this universe) that Batman being his World's Greatest Detective Self would figure out everything there is to know about this guy in the first ten minutes of the movie.

I mean, shit, wouldn't Batman at least know to "know his enemy"? The Batman I know would be incredibly suspicious if Lex Luthor put a giant computer full of his corporate secrets in... a library? Was that his house? Whatever... and just handed him an orgy of evidence...

Fuck. The expanded cut of BvS is at least coherent (the Luthor conspiracy is still dumb but it's dumb in a "this makes sense, but is unnecessarily convoluted" way) compared to the theatrical version but both of them are incredibly sloppy. It makes me wonder if Bruce's 2 hour six week beard growth in JL wasn't on purpose.

The plot of Batman vs Superman actually reminds me of the plot of Attack of the Clones, in that they both look like some kind of conspiracy or detective story at first glance but after the movie is over and you have a while to think about it, it's obvious the writers just took a bunch of tropey scenes and stitched them together without any connective tissue.

Snyder didn't write the movie, so that's not him, it's Terrio and Goyer. The script has the stink of Goyer all over it. From his past work I can see him being all edgy about Superman, the guy loves violent authoritarian protagonists and despises populists to the point that he turned the League of Assassins into the Ambiguously Brown Branch of Occupy Wall Street in TDKR. Of course he'd make Superman an indecisive nebbish.

To be fair, Lex's actual plan, as fully explained in the extended cut, is fine: He makes Superman look like a threat to goad Batman into fighting him and makes Batman looks like a vindictive psycho who commits murder by proxy to goad Superman into fighting him. He uses their respective personalities to push them into conflict to serve his own ends.

That part is fine. The problem is:

They actually go through with it, which is stupid. (This outcome is part of the "The only DCCU superhero who acts like a superhero is Wonder Woman" problem and makes both characters look like complete idiots) The key to the "Let's you and him fight" trope is that the heroes don't actually kill each other and figure out the ruse on their own.

Lex doesn't seem to have any problem with Batman. He has an ideological problem with Superman. His plan is needlessly convoluted. He clearly knows who Superman really is and how to lure him somewhere, and Kryptonite is a complete surprise. In this movie he could have killed Superman in the first act. His plan has a dozen extra steps, any of which could fail, for no reason. Shit, he could have just put a chunk of kryptonite in a box and mailed it to Clark.

They could have done anything. Team him Lex up with the Joker, have Lex develop red Kryptonite so Batman actually has to fight him, do something, do anything.

Christ what a wasted opportunity.
Last edited by Chuckman on Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:21 pm

That was his Thinking Beard. He grows it while he does Bat Thinking.

A Bat Beard, if you will.
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Postby Chuckman » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:27 pm

I would actually accept the beard if there was a scene in the movie like this:

Diana: Bruce, how did you grow a beard in two hours?

Bruce: I'm Batman.
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:35 pm

(deep breath) BECAUSE I'M--

Diana: No, no: we're not doing that.

Bruce:...Because--

Diana: No. Stop it.

Bruce:....becausei'mbatman...
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Postby Ray » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:16 pm

It doesn't even matter anymore. DC is NEVER going to be relevant ever again.

I mean have you seen the recent Social Media posts for Shazam? Looks campy as F*ck.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
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Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
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Postby Chuckman » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:10 pm

What were you expecting from a movie about a teenage boy who screams SHAZAM so a wizard will turn him into a flying strongman?
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Postby Ray » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:44 pm

Ever read Millars Superior? It's a relatively light-hearted Shazam-expy story. But with some really dark moments in it as befitting of Mark Millar.

Like I said before I feel this is going to be a case of the pendulum swinging too far in the opposite direction.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
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Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:35 am

You know what would have really saved JL? If everyone was fighting against the STEPPENWOLF band. I swear for a solid two weeks I had to keep reminding myself that the band wasn’t what the film was referring to, and being constantly disappointed by that fact.

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Postby El Squibbonator » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:33 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:It doesn't even matter anymore. DC is NEVER going to be relevant ever again.


I wouldn't go that far. They survived Batman and Robin and Steel. They can survive this.
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Postby Chuckman » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:50 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:You know what would have really saved JL? If everyone was fighting against the STEPPENWOLF band. I swear for a solid two weeks I had to keep reminding myself that the band wasn’t what the film was referring to, and being constantly disappointed by that fact.


Steppenwolf was bad, yes. Part of that whole “sequel to movies that don’t exist” problem with the film itself. We were given no context for who or what he is or where he comes from or what he wants or what motivates his character. To an uninitiated audience member he was a weird guy with gear stolen from Skyrim who’s a little rapey and has a momma’s boy thing going. I’m sure lots of people also spent the movie wondering why he looked like Benedict Cumberbatch but did not sound like him.

What hamstrings these movies as much, as not more, as lack of direction for the brand and poor choice of directors to help the projects is atrociously bad writing from the scripts.

The DCCU scripts all suffer from the same problem to a degree: they’re full of things suddenly happening for no reason, or characters making illogical choices, or clashing themes. Even the tightest DCCU movie plot wise, Wonder Woman, still has a few head scratchers.

Most egregiously there’s a lot of characters acting a way or making a choice the writer thinks they should, rather than what is organic, and the hallmarks of writers tackling characters and plots that are far above their ability. Not to mentioning shoehorning their views in where they don’t belong. (Looking at you Goyer)
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Postby Ray » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:33 pm

View Original PostEl Squibbonator wrote:I wouldn't go that far. They survived Batman and Robin and Steel. They can survive this.


Those moves were standalones not intended to be the setup for a grander Cinematic Universe down the line. When you fail to get critical Acclaim for the first few movies intended to be set up for your Cinematic Universe every other movie is going to have to be an apology for the last few movies and the problems are just going to compound with each other until eventually you'll have to reboot.

I said it before I'll say it again it's one thing to fail with a single movie it's another to fail with what was supposed to be an entire setup for a Cinematic Universe That was supposed to , B a money printer

At this point Marvel has a monopoly on the entire superhero genre and they always will (Especially after the Fox buyout and Disney consolidating power) DC will never have a Cinematic Universe that can compete with them even if they do make good movies. They crapped the bed now they have to lie in it.

The only way DC could have a good Cinematic Universe would be if they rebooted 100% from a cold start but thanks the Wonder Woman being a success they aren't going to. And at this point they're so far behind Marvel even if they did reboot and start making good movies they would never be able to compete. NEVER.

So the problems are just going to compound upon themselves eventually we're going to have to concede defeat and shelve the whole thing until the superhero Renaissance happens in 20 or so years after the current bubble pops. And by then DC will be so far back in the annals of Pop Culture Goodwill nobody will even care.

Maybe I should rephrase. " never be relevant again"doesn't mean they won't stick around never be relevant again means that they'll never be on par with the competition.

It's better to just accept there's no hope for DC and live with the fact that Marvel's the only one who's ever going to have a good cohesive Cinematic Universe. While DC is forced to live on the scraps leftover from Marvel's domination of the genre.

This is especially the case given DC is trapped at Warner Brothers who were all the good movies they make are not the best place for these characters to be they need to be somewhere where the issues that caused the current state of the dceu are guaranteed to never happen ever again. But given every Studio wants to sit on IPS even if they aren't making them money? There is no way Warner Brothers is ever going to give control of the characters over to someone who can do them Justice.

I hope someone can prove me wrong. By the end of the day I know in my heart that nobody is going to ever be able to make DC relevant nver again. At least as far as the movies are concerned.

It's just no fair that it's come to this and that the situation between the two companies has gotten so toxic. If both companies were succeeding we would be having friendly competition and not the at each other's throats self destructive rubbing it in the losers face environment the Fanboy Community is degenerated into
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Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:40 pm

Remember Daredevil?

And Elektra?

All the Fantastic Four movies?

...including the one that was never released in theaters? Yes, even that one. Because I remember. I remember them all.

Even the FIRST Captain America movie...and no, it was not the one with Chris Evans.

Each of those movies was considered a knock-out blow to Marvel's movie aspirations, and yet...here we are.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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We have to remember what's important in life: friends, waffles, and work. Or waffles, friends, and work. But work has to come in third.
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Come read EVA Sessions! This place has it, too! There'll be pizza! Not really! There are other things, too! Not EVA Sessions! Did I mention the pizza!?

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Postby Ray » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:49 pm

It took , decades before Marvel was willing to try a Captain American movie after that. And after the failure of bvs and Justice League nobody's going to want to see a Superman movie ever again for another decade at least. Superman has not had a good movie in 40 years if the character hasn't been done right since then there's no reason to believe he'll ever be done right again.

Furthermore about those bad Marvel movies you were talking about?

Those were all made before the Marvel Cinematic Universe back when Marvel was licensing out the rights to its characters to various movie companies just so they could stay afloat. That way the public could blame the failures of those movies on the various companies and not on Marvel itself.

But Warner Brothers is synonymous with DC. Because all of the characters are under their Studios Banner. If the same Studio that's to blame for the prior failures is still in charge of the future movies audiences aren't going to trust the brand.

The Marvel Brand hasn't had a single failure under their belt, under the official Disney MCU banner. DC has been nothing but failure under the Warner banner.

Stop trying to tell me There's Hope for DC when there really isn't. At least this way I won't be disappointed when they release another divisive at best crappie at worst movie.

EDIT: Furthermore. Nobody puts the same standards on Marvel movies the way they do on Superman and Batman and company. You mess up with them, the audience is much slower to forgive.
Last edited by Ray on Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby El Squibbonator » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:50 pm

Gee, Ray, you must win a lot of optimist awards. In all seriousness, it's really damping the mood of this thread.

Also, you say that "DC has been nothing but failure under the Warner banner." That is simply not true. Leaving aside how the movies did with critics for a moment (since it's a well established fact that movies can be successful in spite of poor reviews), let's look at how the DCEU movies actually performed from a purely financial perspective:

Man of Steel-- Cost $225-$250 million, earned $668 million. Successful.

Batman vs Superman-- Cost $250 million, earned $874 million. Successful.

Suicide Squad-- Cost $175 million, earned $747 million. Successful. Take a look at the budget here, though; It's somewhat lower than MoS and BvS.

Wonder Woman--Cost $150 million, earned $822 million. Successful. Once again, not the lower budget than the first two movies.

Justice League-- Cost at least $300 million, earned $675 million. Not successful. Notice that it had a higher budget than any other DC movie before it.

So what do we see here? The first four movies in the DCEU were all profitable, though only Wonder Woman could really be called a runaway smash hit. Regarding the next upcoming DC movie, Aquaman, its budget has been stated to be $160 million, which puts it in the same boat as Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad. So it's likely to at least turn a profit.

PS: there has been one MCU movie that was a money-loser-- The Incredible Hulk, in 2008.
Last edited by El Squibbonator on Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Superhero/Comic Based Films & Tv - Vol.2

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Postby Chuckman » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:11 pm

I don't know why you keep projecting this grand manichean struggle on box office competition between two megaconglomerates. You sound really upset over something that fundamentally isn't that important. If the toxicity in the fan communities is bothersome to you, why not just go do something else for a time?
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