Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:52 am

Character arcs don't include interpretations of the meaning behind events? It seems absurd you wouldn't consider a moment symbolic of character development part of an arc. Why are we drawing an arbitrary line at her death? Shouldn't "I need you" count given the audience can perceive the events there?

The caress is a real action, as is her last dialogue.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:31 am

Because what you're talking about is character development, which is an element of a character arc. The stuff that you're talking about with Asuka takes place during the 'falling action' phase of a character arc, following the penultimate moment of the character's story. Asuka's arc was concluded with her death (when her story reached the peak of it's contribution to the overall Evangelion story, and what we see of her actual character development). What we see of her afterwards is in the falling action from that moment.

The caress towards Shinji is a real action, but it's not the concluding action of her arc: it's part of the falling action. It is a the result of the completed arc (like Shinji's character arc completes with his rejection of Instrumentality: he strangles Asuka, then stops and begins crying over her, but that's not the end of his arc: that happened earlier. This is falling action).
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:17 am

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:Because what you're talking about is character development, which is an element of a character arc. The stuff that you're talking about with Asuka takes place during the 'falling action' phase of a character arc, following the penultimate moment of the character's story. Asuka's arc was concluded with her death (when her story reached the peak of it's contribution to the overall Evangelion story, and what we see of her actual character development). What we see of her afterwards is in the falling action from that moment.

The caress towards Shinji is a real action, but it's not the concluding action of her arc: it's part of the falling action. It is a the result of the completed arc (like Shinji's character arc completes with his rejection of Instrumentality: he strangles Asuka, then stops and begins crying over her, but that's not the end of his arc: that happened earlier. This is falling action).

So would falling action be start of a new character arc?
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:34 am

It COULD be!

:asukahearts:

The traditional 3-act element within a character arc (inciting incident, rising action, falling action) means that the end of one CAN lead to another (and, in fact, any good, long term character arc is, in fact, multiple character arcs stretching towards an ultimate conclusion). Basically, every episode has it's own 'character arc' per episode, right? The episode's plot is advanced to a conclusion, with the character developing in it, and being inched a little further along in the grander series arc.

So, the Asuka we see on the beach, the moment she caresses Shinji's cheek, her utterance of "How disgusting...;" that is certainly the end of a smaller arc within her development (the rejection of Instrumentality, for better or worse). It also indicates the start of a NEW arc that we will never see, as the story is now concluded.

So, you aren't wrong: this in itself is the conclusion of another arc. As for the series arc, though (the ultimate conclusion to Asuka as a character as she has an impact on the series itself), I feel that the battle against the MPEs is that. It is a grand, bombastic exit, built upon her slow and gradual erosion of herself as a person over a long, brutal series: a return to form in what we remember of Asuka, as a girl who KNEW she was a soldier, a warrior, and now had a new battle to fight. It might not have been the best of causes, and it may have been deception (as you think), but it was the release of the tension built over her development.

It's the end of her as a character, though, and she is present at the end to have a very meaningful impact ON the ending. However, that's not hers: that's Shinji's. She's there to have an impact on his final development (for plot purposes, not within story purposes...clearly, she's there because she was too spicy for Instrumentality to digest!).

So, I'm not disagreeing that there was probably a smaller character arc for her elsewhere in there, just...that the grand arc she had built over the series was concluded with the battle.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:41 am

Fair enough.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby C.T.1290 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:23 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:You came to the conclusion because you forced yourself to arrive at it.

What makes you think I forced myself to that conclusion? I took all that as the fact, based on their interactions throughout the series. And as many others had pointed out, there is a lot of bad chemistry between them.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:52 pm

There is, but it was really weird that you used my quote to justify the answer, when there was nothing in the quote indicating anything one way or the other. It was strange because there was no tautological connection between the quote and the statement, and looked forced.

It was like saying, "Because this is a square hole, I need a Pepsi."
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby C.T.1290 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:11 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:There is, but it was really weird that you used my quote to justify the answer, when there was nothing in the quote indicating anything one way or the other. It was strange because there was no tautological connection between the quote and the statement, and looked forced.

It was like saying, "Because this is a square hole, I need a Pepsi."

So what you and pwhodges had said was that the issue here had already been discussed several times on this site?

Ok. That may be so. The reason I came to that conclusion myself was because no one had really answered my question, all got was pwhodges telling me, "You'd think there would already be a thread on this subject, wouldn't you!". I wasn't sure what he was going with this at first, so I kinda took it as a yes on weather or not it would be foolish to ship Shinji and Asuka together because of their circumstances, which was pretty obvious at a glance.
Asuka'sBigBrother wrote:Your dislike of her is irrational.

I don't know. He may have a valid reason not to like her. I mean, she is what she is; a brat who always gives people a hard time as a way to vent out her own frustration. She may pilot the Evangelion to save the world, but I think she does it for selfish reasons while not giving a crap about people and their well being, I know she didn't care about Shinji's.

In the end, I'm willing to bet that Anno himself sees that pairing Shinji with Asuka as nothing more than a mistake he inevitably made, one he's not going to repeat again, which was made more apparent in the rebuild films.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby barnett » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:13 am

Or maybe Anno sees that the relation between the two has been meaningfully fleshed out in NGE+EoE, and that NTE is an occasion to try something new.
It seems more likely to me.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:17 am

We DID answer your questions, but they kept looping around: you basically kept asking the same question in different ways over and over, and I think we've all felt we've covered ground that is either covered in detail elsewhere on the site, or is still being discussed in separate threads. At this point, it feels less like a discussion, and more like you have a pre-conceived answer that you are trying to lead us to by repeating the question.

If you have your idea of how incompatible Shinji and Asuka are, so be it: thousands of people do. Argue it, though, and expect to be disagreed with. Throwing out statements like that, in response to unconnected quotes, just looks strange.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:25 am

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:We DID answer your questions, but they kept looping around: you basically kept asking the same question in different ways over and over, and I think we've all felt we've covered ground that is either covered in detail elsewhere on the site, or is still being discussed in separate threads. At this point, it feels less like a discussion, and more like you have a pre-conceived answer that you are trying to lead us to by repeating the question.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:38 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:all got was pwhodges telling me, "You'd think there would already be a thread on this subject, wouldn't you!". I wasn't sure what he was going with this at first, so I kinda took it as a yes on weather or not it would be foolish to ship Shinji and Asuka together because of their circumstances, which was pretty obvious at a glance.

I was actually referring to this thread. The thread in which you ask the same question again and again, and keep ignoring the answers. But indeed there are others covering the same ground, and some in which Anno's view of the characters as far as we know it) is also discussed.

The plain fact is that people aren't as clearly defined one way or another as you seem to insist; there will always be an element of interpretation - in other words of ourselves and our prejudices - in how we see others. Also, there are limits to how far we can explore fictional characters, because we can see only the aspects of them written in the work - anything beyond that is again interpretation and speculation. So there will always be people who agree with you, and those who, more or less, disagree with you; that will never change, because in this matter there is no complete absolute truth to fall back on in the end.

So, there's always scope for further discussion. But that discussion becomes boring and tedious if it does nothing but loop back to the same question and answer again and again without giving reasons to consider a varied interpretation. Once we have all expressed our various views on a particular matter, perhaps it's time to move on to another for a while. If you, or someone, finds a new unexplored wrinkle in this one, it could be interesting to return to discuss it, but that's not what I'm seeing here.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby C.T.1290 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:24 am

Ok, so what a lot of people are telling me is that these two are essentially bad for each other right now, but they can work things out in their near future? And that Anno intentionally put these two together to demonstrate the issues of the hedgehog's dilemma?

And that my view on them has been wrong all along?
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:35 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Ok, so what a lot of people are telling me is that these two are essentially bad for each other right now, but they can work things out in their near future?

Nope, literally nothing from either gob or hodges post implied such a belief. You're forcing yourself to a conclusion.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:49 am

Well, right, my critic was irrational, but I think that by now I did manage to come up with a better one, well okay, why AsuShin is toxic.

Beyond the reasons already stated in this topic, there's also another thing that I want to bring up, Asuka does confuses Shinji, remember the kiss scene? Most people may see it as a proof of love between those two, I would look at it as a pitiful act of a despaired girl that can't even notice the results of her acts.

Check out episode 22 and many of the latter ones. You'll see that Asuka flirting with Shinji or getting angry about him is quite the proof. Similarly Asuka being even internally frustrated that Shinji is there in her mind for love, and Asuka being upset that Shinji won't engage her or love her, even hold her.

Now why would Shinji not 'hold me!' as she complains? Well, maybe because you called him a pervert? Maybe because you said that there was a Wall of Jericho (walls that only God did break...Asuka Asuka *facepalm*) before you two? Now, I do get her character in this, but then I remember girls that often employ the same tactics (what says something about courting for god's sake, principally today where looking can be considered Rape, I may be wrong, but that is what I heard in some places of Europe) and I cannot not feel internally enraged with it, you see, like Shinji I am also an introverted, maybe I am an bigger introvert than Shinji himself (not at the same scale of Rei) so, the problem? You don't know particularly, some charges towards rapists seems to happen when a man does something thinking that a woman is giving to him permission to do something (now remember 'wall of jericho' and compare it with 'no! I don't want it!') but she didn't.

Now what happens, Asuka did flirt with Shinji and some may say that was sufficient messages, but...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking ... ation.html

Well, that is a problem, let's see his perspective, as almost I don't like, I can't disagree that he did feel attracted towards Asuka and he would love to bang her, but her messages doesn't made him to feel safe about if she was allowing him to touch her or no.

I understand his issue, as an introverted I have a hard time reading those subtle nuanced things, like, I do eventually manage to read it, but only after an 'oh damm, if I do something wrong she will push me away or be more direct.'

So where most people glared at Shinji when Asuka complained 'You didn't even hold me!' I glared at her instead, so you keep him away from you calling him a pervert and then you want him to touch you?! That is crazy! I find impressive that Shinji is actually more understandable than Asuka in this.

Also yes, I never liked Asuka in a way, but it is more because I find disturbing how many girls are insecure in real life, very akin to her, but...then those girls being insecure is 'not bad', or worthy of attention or even scorn (insecurity in boys is often scorned, with me insecurity had scorn as result) but 'woe to the man that is actually insecure'.

But I may be biased, I treat men and women as the same beings, humans, so I don't know.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:56 pm

...why would you glare at EITHER of them? You've completely missed the parable of the Hedgehog's Dilemma.

Both of these kids are damaged, both of them failed to actually make a connection with each other. Asuka failed Shinji by being unable to express her affections or needs in a way that wasn't layered in rudeness or anger...and Shinji failed to provide Asuka even the most basic kind of support when she desperately needed it.

Because both of them are children, who do not understand how to do these things, and don't have adults capable or willing to show them. Because teenagers forming relationships is not important to these adults: having soldiers who can fight on command is.

You keep looking at these characters like their adults who should understand the ramifications of their actions: they're kids.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby C.T.1290 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:21 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:Nope, literally nothing from either gob or hodges post implied such a belief. You're forcing yourself to a conclusion.

I was actually referring to the many posts on multiple threads regarding Asuka, and the many answers people had given me.

I get that Gob's post was about how some of the topics (such as this one) had already been covered, not to mention repeated, and how I was just basically tiring them out.

Some of these answers I've got didn't quite ring as clear to me, which was kind of the reason for the repeats. So, taking the answers from the other threads, I just decided to sum up the overall relationship between Shinji and Asuka, because let's face it, that's just how it is between these two.
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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:34 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:I was actually referring to the many posts on multiple threads regarding Asuka, and the many answers people had given me.

Cept that they all almost unanimously would imply a conclusion contrary to the one you came to. It doesn't seem to me you're here to take input, more to reaffirm your own beliefs.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:53 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:Cept that they all almost unanimously would imply a conclusion contrary to the one you came to. It doesn't seem to me you're here to take input, more to reaffirm your own beliefs.

So, does that mean that the conclusion I came to about Shinji and Asuka isn't entirely true?
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:22 am

True? None of us has the incontrovertible truth - it's all opinion. You can argue for one opinion or another, but trying to claim that one answer is the only and complete one is not going to cut any ice.

Thing is, we all interpret the world (real life and fiction alike) in the light of our own experience. This leads us to different conclusions; nothing wrong with that - our experiences are all equally valid. But the joy of discussion is that you can start to see other people's different interpretations, and even gain a little hint of other people's life experiences which led them that way. This gives us the opportunity to reconsider our views - not to drop our previous conclusions necessarily, but to temper them in the light of a wider range of viewpoints and perhaps give them more nuance.

But I have the feeling that you are resisting this process, and seeking simply to validate your own views and experience by defending them against all alternatives rather than considering how those alternatives arose and what they might have to offer, for your views and even for yourself in a wider sense.
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