Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:38 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:A final, rage-filled battle with her as she always saw herself is the next best thing you can get for a completed character arc.

Uh, you realize that wasn't the end of her character arc, right?
I would have loved to see an emotionally stable Asuka come to terms with her flaws, to become a better person, but...that's not this kind of story.

So am I the only person who didn't stop watching after Asuka was initally killed?
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby C.T.1290 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:52 am

In Tiffany Grant's essay about Asuka, just how misunderstood is she? Like, say, on a scale from 1 to 10?

And the part about Shinji being in between Rei and Asuka, was it due to his passive aggression, with Rei being the passive one and Asuka the aggressive?
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:34 am

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:rude, selfish, egotistical, bratty, obnoxious, and quite boastful oftentimes.


Like most teenagers, Hmph, I was never like that, now I get why I don't really get along with Asuka's character no matter her own past issues.

When I was a kid, my mother literally beaten me down because I had problems with math, when I truth she was just using me as a punching bag because of my father (that was a damm irresponsible cheater, he cared little, we could die of hunger for all what he cared) still I never ended up like her, my mother also had depression, a heavy depression and most of time I was alone, even today I am still alone, you see, it is funny, back then, when I was a kid, I needed to deal with the fights between my mother and my father, their bullshit, lack of responsibility, depression, panic syndrome, lack of empathy and a lot of more fucked up things (my father only stays with us today because otherwise he will die of hunger, likewise with my mother, the marriage is a sham, the whole family deal died after too much bullshit.)

My father could search stupid reasons to fight against me for no reason, no reason, like something he had done, but the fault must be mine, I grew to dislike him intensively (principally because he is too much selfish, he can't even imagine himself failing or doing something wrong, for him he never had done anything wrong in his life.) My mother couldn't care less and drink sufficiently to arrive drunk at home and fight against everyone.

And when I said to her that she should stop, she blamed me, because thanks to me that are not rich (you see, things only began to work good for me now) she 'needed' to stay with him.

I did never asked her to stay with him, still she blames me.

No one likes no one in my home.

Still I was never like Asuka, I wasn't rude, selfish, egotistical, bratty and obnoxious, I do now get it, I simply work on a framework that literally goes against her.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:30 am

Look, speaking as a former teenager, teenagers exhibit ALL of those behaviors in one manner or another. And that's not a criticism of teenagers: teenagers are placed under immense pressure to be little adults when they are still children, undergoing significant changes in their physical, emotional, and social lives. All those behaviors, whether exhibited by themselves or as a whole, are natural defense mechanisms that your average moody, 'I'm different and no one understands me, my life is so hard' teenager possesses. That's because their lives ARE hard, because they are having to meet demands with tools they haven't developed yet, and have to largely figure it out on their own (even with good mentor figures).

Seeing as you shared your backstory with us, which sounds frankly awful, let's use you as an example. Especially seeing as you are still a teenager.

You said that you are none of these things, but the response wasn't about you. It was about most teenagers in a generalized sense, and not as a specific case. I did not say all teenagers are all of these things all the time: I said most teenagers were these things oftentimes. You took that as being directed at you, which indicates egotism. That's natural: teenagers frequently contextualize what they see in how it pertains to them, whether it does or not.

Then you shared your background, which, again: awful. I get that, you have my sympathies...but it was freely volunteered. No one asked for it, it has no real bearing on the conversation, but you still gave it, in detail, to argue that you are special because you did not act like Asuka with all of this.

You are boasting about your difficult life, and further boasting about how you are superior to a fictional character because of it. Again, that's teenage behavior: boasting is VALIDATION. You are trying impress upon an audience your accomplishments, and demonstrate how that makes you a 'valid' person.

In your response, you've done two out of the several things I've listed.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:20 pm

Would it be considered foolish, not to mention a bit naive, to ship ShinjiXAsuka despite the obvious circumstances that had happened between them?

I mean, I know most people on here had shipped these two, and probably defended them against some of the naysayers who think shipping these two are a bad idea, and may have some valid reasons for that.

I wondered what Mr. Anno would think of the whole ordeal?
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:35 am

You'd think there would already be a thread on the subject, wouldn't you!
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:49 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:You'd think there would already be a thread on the subject, wouldn't you!

What do you mean?
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:16 pm

He means this is a topic that sustains probably a third of the threads on Evageeks.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:17 pm

Not to mention the subject of this very thread...
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:22 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:He means this is a topic that sustains probably a third of the threads on Evageeks.

So I'm guessing that the answer to my question on how much Asuka cares for Shinji is very little. And that these two clearly aren't meant, nor right, for each other.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby xanderkh » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:26 pm

NO, that's not what we're saying. We're saying that this topic itself, between Shinji and Asuka, has been done to DEATH here.

I personally think that they can make it work because of their experiences, but if you want to believe that they should never see each other again, that's your opinion.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:39 pm

Yeah, that's a...weird conclusion to draw from what I said, C.T.

There's a lot of indicators that she DOES care for Shinji. A lot of her anger at him stems from him not being able to adequately express affection for HER (and her inability to tell him this in a healthy and productive way). Whether the affection she has for him is healthy, actual, or for Shinji himself (and not his status as a Pilot) is well up for debate, but it's pretty clear towards the end that Shinji and Asuka share something (whatever that is), they just...have no clue how to enact it.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:22 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:So I'm guessing that the answer to my question on how much Asuka cares for Shinji is very little. And that these two clearly aren't meant, nor right, for each other.

:huh:
Literally nothing in that quote would logically lead to the conclusion you arrived at. Shinji wasn't mentioned or alluded to anywhere in Gob's post.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:48 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote::huh:
Literally nothing in that quote would logically lead to the conclusion you arrived at. Shinji wasn't mentioned or alluded to anywhere in Gob's post.

I was referring the post before that, since no one has directly answered my question from before.
C.T.1290 wrote:Would it be considered foolish, not to mention a bit naive, to ship ShinjiXAsuka despite the obvious circumstances that had happened between them?

I mean, I know most people on here had shipped these two, and probably defended them against some of the naysayers who think shipping these two are a bad idea, and may have some valid reasons for that.

I wondered what Mr. Anno would think of the whole ordeal?

So that's kind of why I came to this conclusion.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:09 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:I was referring the post before that, since no one has directly answered my question from before.

So that's kind of why I came to this conclusion.

You came to the conclusion because you forced yourself to arrive at it.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Lt Light Ark » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:06 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:Look, speaking as a former teenager, teenagers exhibit ALL of those behaviors in one manner or another. And that's not a criticism of teenagers: teenagers are placed under immense pressure to be little adults when they are still children, undergoing significant changes in their physical, emotional, and social lives. All those behaviors, whether exhibited by themselves or as a whole, are natural defense mechanisms that your average moody, 'I'm different and no one understands me, my life is so hard' teenager possesses. That's because their lives ARE hard, because they are having to meet demands with tools they haven't developed yet, and have to largely figure it out on their own (even with good mentor figures).

Seeing as you shared your backstory with us, which sounds frankly awful, let's use you as an example. Especially seeing as you are still a teenager.

You said that you are none of these things, but the response wasn't about you. It was about most teenagers in a generalized sense, and not as a specific case. I did not say all teenagers are all of these things all the time: I said most teenagers were these things oftentimes. You took that as being directed at you, which indicates egotism. That's natural: teenagers frequently contextualize what they see in how it pertains to them, whether it does or not.


To be frank I said reminding of my own teenager days, I didn't noticed what you meant, but in my teenager days, I was never the things you did listen, people even called me a well behaved teen, no disobedient and all that.

So I did find that affirmation strange.

Then you shared your background, which, again: awful. I get that, you have my sympathies...but it was freely volunteered. No one asked for it, it has no real bearing on the conversation, but you still gave it, in detail, to argue that you are special because you did not act like Asuka with all of this.

You are boasting about your difficult life, and further boasting about how you are superior to a fictional character because of it. Again, that's teenage behavior: boasting is VALIDATION. You are trying impress upon an audience your accomplishments, and demonstrate how that makes you a 'valid' person.

In your response, you've done two out of the several things I've listed.


Not really validation or boast, not even close, my problems are mine and mine alone, I just said then to lay down my issue with Asuka, look, I see a lot of people that excuse her behavior and her tendency to throw her problems over Shinji (that you can also see as everyone else...), where she will often complain because 'he doesn't hug her' so being a good boy and giving 'sweet validation' to her or 'not being a man' that would be like Kaji to save her from her problems and make a place to her in life, whilst becoming her absolute perfect boyfriend as a bonus.

I didn't have the same excuses, I did need to sort myself out, because I do noticed that people are less likely to help you if you're a man, so I needed to steel up and meet life.

But Asuka? Even after Instrumentality she is disgusted because Shinji wasn't the 'Kaji' that would then save her from her problems, the fact that...fact is excused makes me sick.

I wasn't excused, why should she? Because she is girl? Now, I don't really go around saying that people are wrong into having sympathy or even excusing her, it is their decision after all, but considering my own life experiences I can't see she being excused, why I do find AsuShin toxic, in the end, Asuka may feel attracted towards Shinji, maybe looks? Probably, maybe how he manages to be badass sometimes? Yes, but all of those reasons are...shallow, and it becomes worse when you know that all what Asuka wanted from Shinji was that he came to solve her problems, Shinji has problems too.

But nah, he is a man, he should suck it and 'grow up', she particularly forgets (or even, conveniently ignores that he has issues like her, because as a man, he should sort that out so he can sort her own problems)

Oh please, that is more toxic than a polluted pond close of a Chemical Industry.

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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:46 am

I was never the things you did listen, people even called me a well behaved teen, no disobedient and all that.

Anecdotal evidence isn't always something you should apply universally, so frankly, your personal story, which I can deeply empathize with given my own upbringing, isn't all that relevant to Asuka's.

Furthermore, from what you told me, your upbringing had a lot of differences in comparison to Asuka's own, so again, your personal story, isn't all that relevant here. You dealt with your own issues, you never had to deal with Asuka's, hence you have no basis to claim you would have done better than Asuka did if you had to walk in her shoes. Even if I'm generous and take your claim that you would have as fact, you are simply a single person who doesn't represent what most people would or would not do.

Either way, your personal story, simply isn't relevant.


I didn't have the same excuses, I did need to sort myself out, because I do noticed that people are less likely to help you if you're a man, so I needed to steel up and meet life.

Maybe you would have done better in her situation, maybe not, but you can't just disregard circumstances in some aspects while not doing so in others. If you want to claim we shouldn't consider her awfully traumatic past, then I'd also expect you to be consistent and not try to "make excuses" around her saving the world multiple times. Otherwise, you're simply being intellectually dishonest.

I didn't have the same excuses, I did need to sort myself out, because I do noticed that people are less likely to help you if you're a man, so I needed to steel up and meet life.

I wasn't excused, why should she? Because she is girl?

I hate to do this, but sexism against girls is more prominent in Japan than sexism vs boys. Let's keep baseless claims of societal injustice out of this.
where she will often complain because 'he doesn't hug her' so being a good boy and giving 'sweet validation' to her or 'not being a man' that would be like Kaji to save her from her problems and make a place to her in life, whilst becoming her absolute perfect boyfriend as a bonus.

Shinji, "perfect boyfriend", he was:

-> masturbated over Asuka's comotose body
-> literally killed Asuka forcing her into instrumentality
-> tried to kill Asuka a second time

Asuka's response:
-> A soft caress

Most people would, and would be completely justified in, violently retaliating.

Asuka did not.

Trying to paint Asuka by the end of her character arc as a high-maintenance b&t%h is pretty damn laughable. This boy, who, for the record, was begging Asuka for help in instrumentality, killed her, tried to do it again and Asuka responded by offering him emotional support.

You may claim that you would be capable of such tolerance, perhaps you are, perhaps you aren't, but I'm willing to bet the vast majority of people aren't.

It also doesn't make much sense to me when people view her character arc as a failure when it ends with Asuka

-> Choosing to live rather than accept universal suicide
-> Showing kindness when someone tried to kill her, an action the vast majority of people wouldn't replicate

All things considered, Asuka did incredibly well given all the crap she had to deal with. If we ignore context, she saved the world mutliple times and showed kindness to someone who tried to kill her. If we consider context, she was willing to put up with attempted murder in spite of an awful childhood where she was exposed to an insane amount of emotional and even physical trauma.

Your dislike of her is irrational.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:02 am

^

Couldn't have said it better.

Also, Asuka'sBigBrother, just saw the top reply for the first time (I missed it). I would call Asuka's death at the hands of the MPE the conclusion of her character arc: there is more scenes with her, in Instrumentality and afterwards, but her time as a central character, with development and what that entails, is ended. Her realization that her mother was with her the whole time was one of the biggest resolutions to a central part of Asuka's character (the relationship with her mother and all the complications that entailed). While Asuka still has some part's to play in the story, it's no longer her story at that point. So, I'm not calling her death the end of her character development (we can see that with the caress), but her ARC is functionally over: the battle with the MPEs is functionally a conclusion, and everything with her afterwards is a part of falling action (or, rising action for another character's arc).

Lt Light Ark: Everybody is going to display these things differently, but they're all there in one form or another. And you aren't going to realize that regarding you, because it's very difficult to be the unattached observer when the subject is yourself. You don't know how others perceive you: they may tell you one thing or another, but outside perception is something you're never going to have.

As regarding what you said about Shinji, I find it odd you think that, because I'm explaining (not justifying or excusing) Asuka's behavior, it somehow means I am more critical or disdainful of Shinji. I'm not.

There's this strange tendency in fandoms to play zero-sum games: that if a person empathizes with one character, all the others have to be trash (I see that in the Bittersweet Candybowl fandom a LOT). It is possible to feel empathy and sympathy for multiple characters: Shinji has his own hang-ups, and his own reasons for why he is the way he is.
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Re: Introduction, Toxicity of AsuShin and other things

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:45 am

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:Also, Asuka'sBigBrother, just saw the top reply for the first time (I missed it). I would call Asuka's death at the hands of the MPE the conclusion of her character arc: there is more scenes with her, in Instrumentality and afterwards, but her time as a central character, with development and what that entails, is ended. Her realization that her mother was with her the whole time was one of the biggest resolutions to a central part of Asuka's character (the relationship with her mother and all the complications that entailed).

I strongly disagree. I think that moment with her mother was a deception. If you rewatch and pause, you would notice that right before Asuka's mom supposedly expresses her desire for Asuka to live, we see a series of images blatantly foreshadowing Asuka's death. The first image has a dead Asuka, the second, a dead doll, and the third and fourth has Asuka being eclipsed by a doll.

Then, Asuka's mom gets Asuka to fight with her and ultimately die with her.

Asuka's climatic moment wasn't when she was deceived by her mother, it's when she willingly left her mom in instrumentlaity and continued with her own life. Shinji had to say goodbye his own mom to proceed, and the same applies to Asuka. Asuka no longer defines herself according to how her mom views her.

It's only when she rejects her mother that Asuka truly grows up completing her character arc.
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:46 am

In terms of story telling, though, that's supposition. We don't entirely know why she returned from Instrumentality, beyond what we can infer (which is pretty good estimate, either way). You have to remember, though, that a character arc doesn't have to come to an end in a way that constructively fulfills or sustains the character (ie, a healthy or good resolution). A character arc can end with a tragic ending: Asuka being 'deceived' by her mother (I don't think she was, but the points you raise do show there's a LOT of room for debate on that) is still a resolution, in terms of this being the last real 'action' that we see Asuka clearly take within the limits of the story.

And dying is a climatic resolution: it's kind of hard to go further than that. It can be a senseless death, or heroic sacrifice, but Asuka's demise at the hands of the MPE (for better or worse) is the end of what WE see of her as a character (regardless of where she develops elsewhere). Again, that's the difference with character arc and character development. The arc is only what we as the audience can actively perceive in terms of what the story has shown us, not what we can supposition or theorize.

It's not to say that she doesn't return having made an independent decision to split from that, to be her own person, but, unlike Shinji...we don't see that. We see her confrontations with Shinji, but that's more central to Shinji's arc. The things we do see of her elsewhere in Instrumentality are somewhat vague.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
-Sorrow

Rei wanted to know what waffles tasted like.
-Literary Eagle

We have to remember what's important in life: friends, waffles, and work. Or waffles, friends, and work. But work has to come in third.
-Leslie Knope

Come read EVA Sessions! This place has it, too! There'll be pizza! Not really! There are other things, too! Not EVA Sessions! Did I mention the pizza!?


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