Microsoft_Sam wrote: one-eyed wrote: Holy Sh*t you've got too much time on your hands!
I admit it made me laugh!
Joseki wrote: This is simply what Shinji perceived, we don't know if it is what was really going on. And the story is incomplete so there's no moral yet.
No. This was my view of the situation when I watched the film. Shinji has a lot less information than I do, so he knows a lot less about the reason for the animosity of the Wille members are showing.
xanderkh wrote: Dude, if Shinji was just as hated in the fandom as you say he is, we wouldn't be bothered to defend him in anyway. We'd be just content to just through him to the wolves.
Microsoft_Sam wrote: I was not being sarcastic in my earlier comment FYI. The only person here that hates Shinji as much as as you say people do, is you. If I am wrong, I'll wear that, but what are you doing here if you hate Anno's existence and the series?
Mr.Tines wrote: Hideaki Anno wrote:A cowardly young man who feels that his father has abandoned him, and so he has convinced himself that he is a completely unnecessary person, so much so that he cannot even commit suicide.
I should apologize, because my english is maybe not as good as I think. I am a person who deals with numbers, suddenly I could not explain my ideas clearly. I'm on Shinji's side!
My relationship with Eva has always been masochistic. It's like a bruise that does not heal because I insist on nudging. If I had forgotten this wound would be healed, but as a stubborn child I insist on touch! Insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expect different results.
Shinji is probably the most hated character in Japanese animation. This is a fact. I've never hated the character. Not even for a second. I do not think he had done anything wrong in NGE up to EoE. And I guarantee I would not have done better in the series than he.
The problem starts with EoE. I identified myself with Shinji a lot, so when Hideaki Anno came up with his message that "no matter what happens you have to keep living" caused me a deep contempt for Anno. The goal should be to demonstrate why Shinji should not kill himself, but Anno could not. I do not think he even tried. Between madness and death? I choose death without hesitation. Until when does someone have to live? Until death does not seem like a better thing. Between EoE and a shot in the head? I got the shot in the head.
"But he has to go on living!" Say the romantics.
"Why?" I ask.
"You have to find your own answer!" Say the romantics.
This is not a concrete answer, it is an evasive. The romantics have to make real contortions interpretive and philosophical to get deeply questionable answers. I can not agree with this, especially with the Werther Effect that this work can cause. It requires more courage and willpower to suffer than to die.
When I was 14 I met a boy who said he did not kill himself for being afraid of going to Hell. This is a fitting response for him, for believing in Heaven, in God, in Hell, and in the Devil. This is a concrete answer. It would not suit an atheist, but even an atheist could understand that personal answer.
In Shinji's case I can not understand why he has to continue living. Inertia, maybe? To live by inertia seems to me a stupid thing and if that is the answer would be the most stupid answer I've ever heard! Would the alternative be punishment, since being alive to him is Hell itself? If that's the answer we already have EoE where he wanders alone, completely crazy, making tombstones to empty tombs for what? Days? Weeks? Months? Years? Centuries? If they had put the true ending that (for me!) that is Last B he would still be carrying Rei's amputated arm in that surreal Hell.
Anno sacrificed his characters for his “Tale” and message (whatever that message was!). I prefer to focus on the characters, so I understood what he did, but I did not like it, I did not approve, I did not appreciate the result and I would never have done the same. So I would never be a revolutionary genius like Hideaki Anno? Yes, but considering what EoE did to me and several people I could live with it.
In Japan, suicide is an acceptable way to atone for great crimes, but since "god" hates Shinji (in real life this may be bullshit, but in Eva, Anno is god: a capricious, cruel, vengeful, stingy little god), I doubt Anno will give Shinji that dignity: Death is nothing; but to live defeated and accursed is to die daily.
Look at this and understand how I see the "god" Anno: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA7Jhmu-AZg
Microsoft_Sam wrote: Second of all Anno has stated multiple times that Shinji is his self insert not Gendo. Look up an interview in regards to Shinji.
Tragic! Complex! Confused! Hurted! Badass! Tortured by his immense love for Yui and his fear of the invisible bonds that unite people!
Do you really believe in this sh%t?
Plot armor after plot armor and asspull after asspull, Gendo plot armor could withstand the blast from 100 Megatons Tsar Bomb alone. All this plot armor is a massive crutch. It gone too far. The character is infinitely less complex than a straight line and much less deep than a saucer! Anno comes to be ridiculous with the protection to his true avatar!
In fact, Gendo is a selfish, genocidal, monomaniac sociopath. The Bastard King is not just a monster. It
is the monster Hideaki Anno wanted to be.
Stillborn wrote: And he does it in style. And that makes him impressive. And he would succeed as well if not for the fact, that the very person he was doing it for, used and betrayed him from the very beginning.
Without this betrayal it would be obvious to all, the invincible Mary Sue that this thing is.
And he deserved to be betrayed! Gendo approached Yui to steal her ideas and discoveries and reach Seele. He betrayed Yui with Naoko, then with Ritsuko and probably Rei. (First mother, then daughter!) Yui only asked one thing for him: "Take care of Shinji for me, dear!" And we saw what he did. And that's all we know! He must have done many worse things!
Microsoft_Sam wrote: Thirdly, the darkest films of Evangelion were made when Anno was in a dark place mentally and had a complete breakdown afterwards, only in the case of Q he had much more people who supported him through it and he wasn't even planning to make Shin Godzilla in favor of continuing with Final (If interviews are to be believed) but changed his mind when one of his accomplices told him to go for it. Now he's in a better place, he shouldn't go even close to those two films in absolute darkness and despair.
What’s wrong with criticizing a show for what they can do better? We point out the flaws so this show can improve. I’m a big fan of the series but I disagree with most of Anno’s ideas and beliefs. Furthermore, Anno said: "Evangelion is like a puzzle, you know. Any person can see it and give his/her own answer. In other words, we’re offering viewers to think by themselves, so that each person can imagine his/her own world. We will never offer the answers, even in the theatrical version. As for many Evangelion viewers, they may expect us to provide the ‘all-about Eva’ manuals, but there is no such thing. Don’t expect to get answers by someone. Don’t expect to be catered to all the time. We all have to find our own answers." Wow! So Anno should not complain when people interpret his "tale" and find him a nihilist, fatalist, Social Darwinist, cynical and hypocritical! He himself has given this right to see him so by wanting to be enigmatic. Who sows the wind, reap the storm!
Ray wrote: People act 'irrationally' (read cruel and pragmatic) because of the sheer scale of things and whats at stake. There'll be time to think about how the human beings suffering in the grand sweeping motions being made later. Because at least in their mind if they don't act this way NOW then the human race, including the ones suffering wont have a 'later'. That's the way Misato sees things.
Misato was not pragmatic and cruel
. She was childish and cruel
. Veiled accusations, contempt, and threats can be disturbing to anyone, especially without knowing why. If only they had made the accusations, Shinji might have tried to defend himself, but Wille's great heroes did not have time to deal with this inferior brat! I prefer pragmatic cruelty to the childishness of Misato and Wille. If Misato had killed Shinji with the detonator it would have been better for Shinji
, because she knows the soulless aberration that Gendo is, and he will not stop until he gets what he wants. I preferred death to cooperate with Gendo and I think Shinji did too. Misato and Wille were idiots and you KNOW IT
As for the 14 years of suffering they supposedly went through because of Shinji, I just do not believe it. Two angels attacked, Mari has a customized Eva, Gendo has an Evas factory, Neo-Nerv is highly automated (and even has a new logo!), new technologies have been developed, there were several recruits with manuals on the Wunder, but Misato, Ritsuko and the Bridge Bunnies were already experienced suggesting that they had already used the Wunder before, most likely when Eva 09 was the power source. Extrapolating: Did Wille worked for Neo-Nerv? Probably; we do not know. Anything can be valid if you think but try to argue that Wille are not the noble and virtuous heroes who have opposed for years the overwhelming and incommensurable power of the omnipotent and all-knowing Gendo. You will simply be treated worse than a terraplanist at a NASA convention.
Ray wrote: The Allegory breaks down when the scale of that mistake is blown up literally and figuratively to have hurt millions of people. People won't care about whether it was an accident or not. If the law itself does treat you fairly and your name gets cleared. Nobody is gonna treat you like a human being ever again after a screw up that big. Especially if you did something that big by accident, and it's something intrinsic to you physically.
The allegory is still valid because the situation is the same, respecting the proportions. It was not an "accident", it was pure and shameless sabotage! Gendo wanted to wake up Eva 01 and damn the consequences! And Shinji was not even the first pawn! Misato's father was probably the first victim in Gendo's hands during Second Impact. Shinji is not an Übermensch destined to threaten Humanity, in fact he is an unlucky bastard who was born to two monsters and piloted clock bombs twice and had the misfortune to come out alive!
Ray wrote: Transporting a victim in a delicate physical and medical state to another country on an airplane is a bad idea all around. They likely had some plans to bring her parents from Germany to Japan to bring her home and/or monitor her recovery. Of course then shit hit the fan.
Touji was much worse than she was and was moved to safety. The truth is she stayed to have the hospital scene and to watch Asuka fighting, to be gangraped and killed by the MPEs. Without this the impact of EoE would be much smaller!