C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:26 pm

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:Now, would you (or anybody) be any of those things in the Eva universe?

I think there are a few that comes a little closer than others. I guess the normal ones such as Toji, Kensuke, and Hikari. They're shown to be better characters than Asuka, and I guess Shinji. And Mari's a pretty good character too, so yeah.
In the case of Asuka, your own mother treat a doll as her daughter, you lost everything but yourself and you're afraid of being around anyone and to lose everyone at the same time.

So basically, Asuka doesn't want to be that close to people at the risk of loosing someone, as if she really cares about people(other than herself or Kaji)?
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Lyrical » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:45 am

Well, of course the "normal" ones are nicer. They're not dealing with the same sort of stress or trauma; they might all have lost their mothers too, but Asuka and Shinji were sort of special cases in that regard, and they've had several new reasons since then to be shitty. Asuka doesn't want to let anyone in because they'll just abandon her, or hurt her, and because she doesn't want to have to depend on anyone.

Asuka is not a nice person. She's not. But that doesn't mean she isn't a good person. What has she actually done that was morally wrong besides be mean to Shinji?

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:37 pm

View Original PostLyrical wrote:Asuka is not a nice person. She's not.

And that's exactly the kind of problem I have with her. She should be ashamed of herself.
What has she actually done that was morally wrong besides be mean to Shinji?

Basically, treating other people like shit, the same way she did with Shinji. It's this kind of attitude that won't stand for if it were me.
Lyrical wrote:Asuka doesn't want to let anyone in because they'll just abandon her, or hurt her, and because she doesn't want to have to depend on anyone.

I think it's obvious why some abandon or hurt her, because of the way she is.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:37 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:I think it's obvious why some abandon or hurt her, because of the way she is.

Are you including her parents in this?
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:35 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Are you including her parents in this?

I'm not sure. Maybe, depending on if she is like that even in her early childhood. But I suppose her mother's suicide was a major factor behind all of Asuka's problems, and the main reason she is as she is in the series.

And I don't think we're clear on how many times Asuka had been rejected by some people, unless Kaji, Misato, and her mom are about it.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:16 am

Yeah, "ur mean" isn't an excuse for her mom or Misato's neglect of Asuka. Not that Asuka is really all that mean since she's risked her life for her friends, tried to get them to value themselves more and put up with one of them trying to kill her.

And given all the trauma she has had to deal with, her rejection of instrumentality is pretty damn commendable.

We like talking about how Shinji and Asuka are baskets for pity but when it comes down to it, both found the will to live despite life giving them every reason not to. That's pretty impressive. Worthy of respect even.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:54 am

CT1290: "I think it's obvious why some abandon or hurt her, because of the way she is."
Paul: "Are you including her parents in this?"
CT1290: "Maybe, depending on if she is like that even in her early childhood."

OK, you qualify it a bit more than I've quoted, but you appear to be considering the possibility that Asuka was abused by her parents because she was unpleasant rather than the other way round. This is an extraordinary position to get to, it seems to me, and completely negates the point of Asuka's (and Shinji's) treatment in childhood and its effect on them as it's addressed in the show.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:47 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote: Not that Asuka is really all that mean since she's risked her life for her friends, tried to get them to value themselves more and put up with one of them trying to kill her.

The part where she gets them to value themselves, was that during instrumentality? Or was it way before that? I can't remember exactly when that happened since it's been a while now.
And given all the trauma she has had to deal with, her rejection of instrumentality is pretty damn commendable.

We like talking about how Shinji and Asuka are baskets for pity but when it comes down to it, both found the will to live despite life giving them every reason not to. That's pretty impressive. Worthy of respect even.

Yes, it's a rather impressive feat for someone to reject Instrumentality and found the will to live.

But I think in Asuka's case, it could be possible she rejected it because she doesn't want to be around other people and have them see into her mind; remember she doesn't want to share with people, be in the same place as them, use the same stuff they used (her rant in ep. 22), and more importantly, she doesn't want to people to see her weakness and know everything about her. Her reason for coming back may not be the same as Shinji's, but she came back nonetheless, and probably found herself in a worst spot; right next to Shinji.

"If I have to be with you, I would rather die!"

But, I suppose one could hope for the best, and hopefully they won't try to kill each other, or themselves.
pwhodges wrote:OK, you qualify it a bit more than I've quoted, but you appear to be considering the possibility that Asuka was abused by her parents because she was unpleasant rather than the other way round. This is an extraordinary position to get to, it seems to me, and completely negates the point of Asuka's (and Shinji's) treatment in childhood and its effect on them as it's addressed in the show.

Could you elaborate on those?
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Sachi » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:58 pm

It sounds like you're saying Asuka's parents are another victim of her unpleasant nature, rather than Asuka becoming unpleasant in the first place because of her parents.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:24 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:It sounds like you're saying Asuka's parents are another victim of her unpleasant nature, rather than Asuka becoming unpleasant in the first place because of her parents.

Soooo, I'm guessing that I got all mixed up on this. Basically, it was her mother's suicide that drove her down that path, followed by her father's neglect and abuse(not sure if it was physical), and not giving a shit about her and immediately married the doctor/nurse he was having an affair with while leaving her dead mom in the dust?

Ok, those were probably the things that makes her tic, but is it much an excuse for her to be rude to people? Or is it all a defense mechanism that she reacted with purely on instincts in order to survive?

And I'm guessing from what many people on here told me that Asuka really isn't this mean person I had always made her out to be? That she does have the greater capacity to do more good to people? Such as helping them in their time of need, and not just for her sake? And that she didn't really enjoy being mean to others, such as Shinji?

And the part of her reaching out to him, what sort of light could she see in him other than her own desperation?

I guess her caress at the end was some indication that she might have changed, though it's hard to tell where they would go from here.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby jcmoorehead » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:59 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Soooo, I'm guessing that I got all mixed up on this. Basically, it was her mother's suicide that drove her down that path, followed by her father's neglect and abuse(not sure if it was physical), and not giving a shit about her and immediately married the doctor/nurse he was having an affair with while leaving her dead mom in the dust?

Ok, those were probably the things that makes her tic, but is it much an excuse for her to be rude to people? Or is it all a defense mechanism that she reacted with purely on instincts in order to survive?

And I'm guessing from what many people on here told me that Asuka really isn't this mean person I had always made her out to be? That she does have the greater capacity to do more good to people? Such as helping them in their time of need, and not just for her sake? And that she didn't really enjoy being mean to others, such as Shinji?

And the part of her reaching out to him, what sort of light could she see in him other than her own desperation?

I guess her caress at the end was some indication that she might have changed, though it's hard to tell where they would go from here.


It's a defense mechanism, Asuka reacts how a lot of people in similar situations act. Asuka does not want to be hurt by people again, she has been hurt by her mother and obviously her father hasn't done a great job either. She is terrified that if she lets people in she'll be abandoned/hurt again so she just puts up a barrier that pushes people away so that she can't be hurt. Shinji does a very similar thing, that's the core of the story really.

Asuka definitely isn't a mean person at heart, we see good moments of kindness for her as she slowly opens up and lets people in. Unfortunately certain incidents affect her and she doubles down on how she was before and it twists her. You can't really justify her actions when she is nasty to others because she still hurts them, we see during her section with Arael she doesn't want to be like that, she screams repeatedly that it isn't her but she is stuck in that cycle by then.

I think one major issue is that Asuka wasn't really offered proper help for her issues, neither was Shinji. Misato/Ritsuko/Kaji and others recognized that the kids had issues and what they were but none of them were pro-active in helping them out properly. Misato never really took Asuka aside and said "Those thigns in your past that bother you, you can talk to me about them" she never really offered to give either of them a hug.

She was told about the hedgehogs dilemma so could surely recognize it, especially in Asuka but because of Misato's own issues she couldn't offer help.

Then again is the pilots/people did get the help they needed it would have been an entirely different series.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:52 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:is it much an excuse for her to be rude to people? Or is it all a defense mechanism that she reacted with purely on instincts in order to survive?

Yes and yes. Unless you're one of those people (as you often come across to us) who believes that mental illness and trauma are no more than signs of weakness and so should be despised (as you do Asuka) rather than understood, sympathised with, and treated.
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Postby AdamMalkovitch » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:46 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:So anyways, is Asuka the type of character who is truly worth having any sympathy, as much as Shinji does, if not more so?


One of the biggest things I learned from Neon Genesis is that no one is intrinsically bad. Unless someone is a literal sociopath, people will almost always do things just because that's how they're used to doing them. In my experience (which isn't to say much), people don't TRY to be evil. The only reason someone is bad is because you see them that way. I don't pull away from social interaction because I'm a haughty, self-righteous jerk, I do so because I fear rejection. Perception and empathy are some of the major themes of Neon Genesis, and watching the series, End of Evangelion, and reading the manga has taught me so much about both myself and the world.
I personally believe that you're refusing to acknowledge that Asuka is a damaged child, forced into piloting a horrifying beast, both because she's ordered to, and it's all she believes she's good for.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Blockio » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:37 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:But I think in Asuka's case, it could be possible she rejected it because she doesn't want to be around other people and have them see into her mind; remember she doesn't want to share with people, be in the same place as them, use the same stuff they used (her rant in ep. 22), and more importantly, she doesn't want to people to see her weakness and know everything about her. Her reason for coming back may not be the same as Shinji's, but she came back nonetheless, and probably found herself in a worst spot; right next to Shinji.

I dont mean to be insulting, and I apologize if I cross the line of being too personal (in which case I will delete this comment), but I think it would be a good idea for you to rewatch Ep. 16-26, especially the parts where the angels try communicating with the pilots to get a better understanding of their characters and the psychology behind them.
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Postby C.T.1290 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:37 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:I dont mean to be insulting, and I apologize if I cross the line of being too personal (in which case I will delete this comment), but I think it would be a good idea for you to rewatch Ep. 16-26, especially the parts where the angels try communicating with the pilots to get a better understanding of their characters and the psychology behind them.

Oh, it's been a while now since I watched the series, the second time actually (which was probably about two years ago, the first time being back in 2013). But I guess that wasn't enough to get a good understanding of the show and characters. And I call myself an EVA fan? :sniffle:
But at least I still have the manga collection, all 3 in one editions, so I guess that's something.

Oh, and don't worry, you didn't cross the line. ;) I think you're right that I should watch the series again. It might be a bit of a brutal watch, (especially EoE) but it might be worth a shot.
AdamMalkobitch wrote:I personally believe that you're refusing to acknowledge that Asuka is a damaged child, forced into piloting a horrifying beast, both because she's ordered to, and it's all she believes she's good for.

Yeah, I've had about several people telling me that now, and I realized that I might be coming off as a bit of a jackass for denying Asuka's potential for doing more good and for blatantly ignoring her pain and suffering, believing it to be her form of punishment. But apparently, I was in the wrong here. As many people had responded, I was being nothing more than a sadist, one with a twisted mind set. If I did that sort of judgement to a real person, I would have people telling that I'm an asshole and I suck. And I think that's the case with Asuka here. If I have been judging her for her faults while thinking that her positive traits were non existent, what would that make me? I guess that makes me no different than some of the characters in the show who does judge her and quite possibly gave her a hard time, which practically makes me the bully, one of the things I despised in life.
And as pwhodges had told me numerous of times, I have been denying the goodness I had been hoping to find in Asuka's heart, as well as the possibility that she would move on from her problems and grow into a better person in her time after the event of third impact. Although I'm not sure if she could ever forgive Shinji for the things he did (even the things he didn't do), but I had hoped she could at least let go of the grudges she may have had against him, look past his faults as he would look past hers, and maybe find some way to get along for once. I guess we're not sure what Anno's original intention was for these two, but I was hoping it would've ended on a good note.

I guess I have been denying the possible goodness in Asuka because I had felt that it wouldn't be in her character to do good things for people, believing her to be selfish and not caring for other people. But if that were case, if I was just judging people for the many negative things while ignoring the goodness in them, then I guess I was no more than a hypocrite, a judgemental person letting his negative view on the character blind me the possibility of her improving as a person, as most probably would.

So I guess you can go ahead and judge me as you like, I will be accepting of my responsibility.
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:12 am

I think you're confusing 'excuse' with 'justification,' when many of us see Asuka's neuroses as 'explanation' of why she acts the way she does. She is cruel, and it's wrong, and she behaves in very immature ways.

Well, so does Shinji. And Misato. And Ritsuko. And 'Can't Keep My Hands Out of Your Bubble' Kaji. And Gendo. Even Rei: everybody in this show behaves in a very poor way, and intentionally or unintentionally harms everyone around them for various reasons. If Asuka is incapable of goodness, then none of those characters are capable, either.

All human beings have the capacity to do good, and Asuka has shown an ability (and desire) to be kind to people. She's a thirteen (then fourteen) year old girl with baggage. She's not going to get everything right, and she's going to screw up a lot of things on the path to right. Now, in normal circumstances, she would probably grow up into a functioning, if abrasive, adult that would continue to have to figure things out until she gets it right. In a series where she is consistently pummeled by eldritch monstrosities, manipulated by an ancient conspiracy to be (specifically) expendable cannon fodder, all on top of other neuroses that would be difficult enough to deal with on their own?
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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:40 am

If we want to disregard the circumstances causing Asuka being "rude", I don't see why we wouldn't disregard the circumstances around her saving the world multiple times.

The later seems of greater significance to me than the former.
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Postby C.T.1290 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:47 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:If we want to disregard the circumstances causing Asuka being "rude", I don't see why we wouldn't disregard the circumstances around her saving the world multiple times.

The later seems of greater significance to me than the former.

Does she really do it for the sake of others? Or was it for her own benefit at validation?

I did a bit of thinking (a slight meditation if you will, though I'm not exactly sure how they work) and think of the things that makes her tic, (but I guess I didn't go too deep to see everything %100 from her perspective) basically the parts from her mind rape and scenes from the director's cut up to the end in EoE.

So have I been wrong about her the whole time? And that I was worse than she is when it comes to judging others?
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:11 am

She DOES do it for herself, but she does it for validation: to be recognized. There is, I think, room for debate on WHY she wants to be recognized (on the one hand, it could be as simple as her needing her ego stoked, but on the other hand, it could be because she does not see herself existing or mattering BEYOND being recognized, requiring recognition as part of her validation of identity and purpose: there's a case to be made for either position, but just by the nature of the show, I lean towards the latter answer).

That being said, she does show consideration of what others think of her, as well as concern for others: she is unable to express that concern, however, due to either fearing she would be perceived as weak, or simply not knowing HOW to express those concerns. You can see not-so-subtle indications throughout the show that she is concerned for Shinji beyond simply "This is my toy" feelings, and that sometimes her brattier moments against him or others (like Misato) can be attributed to that pattern of acting out in frustration for not having her feelings or attempts at connection considered (which tend to be poor, of course: like all the other characters caught in the Hedgehog's Dilemma, Asuka has no idea how to make healthy connections).

I feel you were wrong about her, but not in the way you think: she IS a brat, she IS an egomaniacal character, and she DOES behave cruelly towards others. I think what you're missing is the WHY, which layers context to her actions, as well as placing those behaviors as somehow worse than what the other characters do. I don't feel they are: each character is damaged in some way, and all of them dish on Asuka as good as they get (if in their own manner: it's just that Asuka's outbursts are much more obvious). It's an issue of balance: just as some are far to lenient in forgiving Asuka's behavior, others are too harsh in judging her, and this is an ensemble piece. All the characters have to be seen in how they connect and interact with each other. It's fine to dislike Asuka (you can't like all the characters, and while I'll argue with you over the worth of Asuka, I won't be miffed if you don't frame her the same way I do), but I think it's unfair (or in the very least, unrealistic) to characterize her the way you have: it's a bit too harsh. Unmeasured, in a sense.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:53 pm

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:she IS an egomaniacal character.

She's literally the opposite, that's why the egomanical image she projects completely collapses when forced to look at herself for who she is.
Just a big bro looking out for sistah

Mess with this crew, and I'll give you a blister


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