C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:26 pm

View Original PostTheCarkolum wrote:Now, would you (or anybody) be any of those things in the Eva universe?

I think there are a few that comes a little closer than others. I guess the normal ones such as Toji, Kensuke, and Hikari. They're shown to be better characters than Asuka, and I guess Shinji. And Mari's a pretty good character too, so yeah.
In the case of Asuka, your own mother treat a doll as her daughter, you lost everything but yourself and you're afraid of being around anyone and to lose everyone at the same time.

So basically, Asuka doesn't want to be that close to people at the risk of loosing someone, as if she really cares about people(other than herself or Kaji)?
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Lyrical » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:45 am

Well, of course the "normal" ones are nicer. They're not dealing with the same sort of stress or trauma; they might all have lost their mothers too, but Asuka and Shinji were sort of special cases in that regard, and they've had several new reasons since then to be shitty. Asuka doesn't want to let anyone in because they'll just abandon her, or hurt her, and because she doesn't want to have to depend on anyone.

Asuka is not a nice person. She's not. But that doesn't mean she isn't a good person. What has she actually done that was morally wrong besides be mean to Shinji?

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:37 pm

View Original PostLyrical wrote:Asuka is not a nice person. She's not.

And that's exactly the kind of problem I have with her. She should be ashamed of herself.
What has she actually done that was morally wrong besides be mean to Shinji?

Basically, treating other people like shit, the same way she did with Shinji. It's this kind of attitude that won't stand for if it were me.
Lyrical wrote:Asuka doesn't want to let anyone in because they'll just abandon her, or hurt her, and because she doesn't want to have to depend on anyone.

I think it's obvious why some abandon or hurt her, because of the way she is.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:37 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:I think it's obvious why some abandon or hurt her, because of the way she is.

Are you including her parents in this?
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:35 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Are you including her parents in this?

I'm not sure. Maybe, depending on if she is like that even in her early childhood. But I suppose her mother's suicide was a major factor behind all of Asuka's problems, and the main reason she is as she is in the series.

And I don't think we're clear on how many times Asuka had been rejected by some people, unless Kaji, Misato, and her mom are about it.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:16 am

Yeah, "ur mean" isn't an excuse for her mom or Misato's neglect of Asuka. Not that Asuka is really all that mean since she's risked her life for her friends, tried to get them to value themselves more and put up with one of them trying to kill her.

And given all the trauma she has had to deal with, her rejection of instrumentality is pretty damn commendable.

We like talking about how Shinji and Asuka are baskets for pity but when it comes down to it, both found the will to live despite life giving them every reason not to. That's pretty impressive. Worthy of respect even.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:54 am

CT1290: "I think it's obvious why some abandon or hurt her, because of the way she is."
Paul: "Are you including her parents in this?"
CT1290: "Maybe, depending on if she is like that even in her early childhood."

OK, you qualify it a bit more than I've quoted, but you appear to be considering the possibility that Asuka was abused by her parents because she was unpleasant rather than the other way round. This is an extraordinary position to get to, it seems to me, and completely negates the point of Asuka's (and Shinji's) treatment in childhood and its effect on them as it's addressed in the show.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:47 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote: Not that Asuka is really all that mean since she's risked her life for her friends, tried to get them to value themselves more and put up with one of them trying to kill her.

The part where she gets them to value themselves, was that during instrumentality? Or was it way before that? I can't remember exactly when that happened since it's been a while now.
And given all the trauma she has had to deal with, her rejection of instrumentality is pretty damn commendable.

We like talking about how Shinji and Asuka are baskets for pity but when it comes down to it, both found the will to live despite life giving them every reason not to. That's pretty impressive. Worthy of respect even.

Yes, it's a rather impressive feat for someone to reject Instrumentality and found the will to live.

But I think in Asuka's case, it could be possible she rejected it because she doesn't want to be around other people and have them see into her mind; remember she doesn't want to share with people, be in the same place as them, use the same stuff they used (her rant in ep. 22), and more importantly, she doesn't want to people to see her weakness and know everything about her. Her reason for coming back may not be the same as Shinji's, but she came back nonetheless, and probably found herself in a worst spot; right next to Shinji.

"If I have to be with you, I would rather die!"

But, I suppose one could hope for the best, and hopefully they won't try to kill each other, or themselves.
pwhodges wrote:OK, you qualify it a bit more than I've quoted, but you appear to be considering the possibility that Asuka was abused by her parents because she was unpleasant rather than the other way round. This is an extraordinary position to get to, it seems to me, and completely negates the point of Asuka's (and Shinji's) treatment in childhood and its effect on them as it's addressed in the show.

Could you elaborate on those?
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Sachi » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:58 pm

It sounds like you're saying Asuka's parents are another victim of her unpleasant nature, rather than Asuka becoming unpleasant in the first place because of her parents.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:24 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:It sounds like you're saying Asuka's parents are another victim of her unpleasant nature, rather than Asuka becoming unpleasant in the first place because of her parents.

Soooo, I'm guessing that I got all mixed up on this. Basically, it was her mother's suicide that drove her down that path, followed by her father's neglect and abuse(not sure if it was physical), and not giving a shit about her and immediately married the doctor/nurse he was having an affair with while leaving her dead mom in the dust?

Ok, those were probably the things that makes her tic, but is it much an excuse for her to be rude to people? Or is it all a defense mechanism that she reacted with purely on instincts in order to survive?

And I'm guessing from what many people on here told me that Asuka really isn't this mean person I had always made her out to be? That she does have the greater capacity to do more good to people? Such as helping them in their time of need, and not just for her sake? And that she didn't really enjoy being mean to others, such as Shinji?

And the part of her reaching out to him, what sort of light could she see in him other than her own desperation?

I guess her caress at the end was some indication that she might have changed, though it's hard to tell where they would go from here.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby jcmoorehead » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:59 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Soooo, I'm guessing that I got all mixed up on this. Basically, it was her mother's suicide that drove her down that path, followed by her father's neglect and abuse(not sure if it was physical), and not giving a shit about her and immediately married the doctor/nurse he was having an affair with while leaving her dead mom in the dust?

Ok, those were probably the things that makes her tic, but is it much an excuse for her to be rude to people? Or is it all a defense mechanism that she reacted with purely on instincts in order to survive?

And I'm guessing from what many people on here told me that Asuka really isn't this mean person I had always made her out to be? That she does have the greater capacity to do more good to people? Such as helping them in their time of need, and not just for her sake? And that she didn't really enjoy being mean to others, such as Shinji?

And the part of her reaching out to him, what sort of light could she see in him other than her own desperation?

I guess her caress at the end was some indication that she might have changed, though it's hard to tell where they would go from here.


It's a defense mechanism, Asuka reacts how a lot of people in similar situations act. Asuka does not want to be hurt by people again, she has been hurt by her mother and obviously her father hasn't done a great job either. She is terrified that if she lets people in she'll be abandoned/hurt again so she just puts up a barrier that pushes people away so that she can't be hurt. Shinji does a very similar thing, that's the core of the story really.

Asuka definitely isn't a mean person at heart, we see good moments of kindness for her as she slowly opens up and lets people in. Unfortunately certain incidents affect her and she doubles down on how she was before and it twists her. You can't really justify her actions when she is nasty to others because she still hurts them, we see during her section with Arael she doesn't want to be like that, she screams repeatedly that it isn't her but she is stuck in that cycle by then.

I think one major issue is that Asuka wasn't really offered proper help for her issues, neither was Shinji. Misato/Ritsuko/Kaji and others recognized that the kids had issues and what they were but none of them were pro-active in helping them out properly. Misato never really took Asuka aside and said "Those thigns in your past that bother you, you can talk to me about them" she never really offered to give either of them a hug.

She was told about the hedgehogs dilemma so could surely recognize it, especially in Asuka but because of Misato's own issues she couldn't offer help.

Then again is the pilots/people did get the help they needed it would have been an entirely different series.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:52 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:is it much an excuse for her to be rude to people? Or is it all a defense mechanism that she reacted with purely on instincts in order to survive?

Yes and yes. Unless you're one of those people (as you often come across to us) who believes that mental illness and trauma are no more than signs of weakness and so should be despised (as you do Asuka) rather than understood, sympathised with, and treated.
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