C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby silvermoonlight » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:52 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote: It's true that I don't really have much of good view on people in our reality, mainly because of the many bad things that our people had done throughout history;
SPOILER: Show
gangs, murderers, rapists, thieves,
hate groups, corrupt politicians and bureaucrats, animal and child abusers, terrorists, extremists, dictators, bullies, and any form of criminals and delinquents.

And these things have been going on for hundreds, even thousands of years. No matter how much time has passed, how much things have changed, people end up doing the same things, over and over again.


Yet there are people who try to do good in this world sometimes at great personal risk to themselves the problem is that media does not talk about them as much as they don't sell papers but you can find them in social media feeds and other media out lets but you need to search for them.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:53 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Has anyone ever thought that maybe having Asuka included in the show was a mistake?
Even on my first watch of the first half of the series (which I'm sure was with the dub, because I remember thinking of her as a stereotypical redhead at that point), the only thing that surprised me was that the red girl who appeared in only a few frames of the OP sequence had survived the episode that I was sure was there to kill her off so as to give Shinji a good few episodes of guilt and angst.

When it became clear she was going to be more of a fixture than the OP had suggested, I then recalibrated and expected that she would be the brash outsider in the usual triangle, and, after taking charge against Matarael, also someone who was actually starting to walk their talk, and might end up as an interesting foil.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Blockio » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:17 pm

All I remember from my first time watching is that I absolutely hated her with burning passion up until Arael... after which I just felt bad for her
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:28 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:All I remember from my first time watching is that I absolutely hated her with burning passion up until Arael... after which I just felt bad for her

When I watched NGE for the first time, when I got to that episode, I don't think I felt that bad for her. More like I thought she should have learned her lesson from rushing in like that. And even when I saw her sitting in that dirty bathtub, I remembered how pitiful she was. And her lamenting that she hates everyone, even herself, didn't help that much for me to completely sympathize with her.

Come to think of it, I think there might be something wrong with me. I know of her back story, a part what makes her tic. Yet, I still find it hard to feel sorry for her like everyone else does. Yes, she's lonely, but I still think she should have done better to deal with her problems instead of letting out on people for almost no reason.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:24 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:she should have done better to deal with her problems instead of letting out on people for almost no reason.

Professionals who deal with mental problems find this a common but very frustrating attitude. Quite simply, there are people who cannot simply "man up" and deal with issues themselves. Those who are not in that position all too often do not understand or accept this. But it's not possible to make this fact go away just by denying it.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:01 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote: Yes, she's lonely, but I still think she should have done better to deal with her problems instead of letting out on people for almost no reason.

She has plenty of reasons. She's been pressured into being a child soilder, was raised up being told she's worthless and that she should kill herself, is completely neglected by her surrogate mother in Misato, and is regularly treated as an expedable tool rather than a person as she regularly risks her life to save the world. That she was able to grow as a person, learn to value herself, find the will to live, and show others affection in spite of the downright terrible conditions she's grown up in is nothing short of heroic.
View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:To me, the character development in Asuka is insignificant for it to be something major. We see her caress Shinji's face, but then we see her express her disgust towards him once more, reverting back to her old self as we see her at the start of the series. I don't think Asuka is as kind as some people are making her out to be. True, there are a few examples during the series were she did a favor for some people before things went downhill, but to me, it isn't enough, nor is it good enough, for me to buy the fact that she can be a better person.
.


Say, CT. What's your stance on attempted murder? Coz, unlike Asuka, Shinji is guilty of that one. Was his presence in the show a mistake too?
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:23 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:Say, CT. What's your stance on attempted murder? Coz, unlike Asuka, Shinji is guilty of that one. Was his presence in the show a mistake too?

Maybe a little. But then again, he is the main character of show, whose sole purpose was to tell his story through his perspective.

As for his "attempted murder", I admit that, to some extent, it was his somewhat justifiable way to get back at Asuka for all the ways she treated him and others. Maybe it was about time someone put her in her place. But then again, it may have been a bit too far. Maybe a slap on the wrist or across the face would have sufficed as a way of reprimanding her for being a jerk ( for a lack for a better word) to everyone. Maybe then, she would learn from her mistakes and start acting more properly towards people.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:32 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:it may have been a bit too far. Maybe a slap on the wrist or across the face would have sufficed as a way of reprimanding her for being a jerk ( for a lack for a better word) to everyone. Maybe then, she would learn from her mistakes and start acting more properly towards people.

Yeah, that's not exactly the best approach. Responding to hostility with more hostility is more likely to make the situation much worse. Instead, the best approach is to open up and talk to each other regarding your your problems, something both Shinji and Asuka failed at due to the very real barriers keeping ourselves from truly understanding one another
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:29 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:As for his "attempted murder", I admit that, to some extent, it was his somewhat justifiable way to get back at Asuka for all the ways she treated him and others. Maybe it was about time someone put her in her place. But then again, it may have been a bit too far. Maybe a slap on the wrist or across the face would have sufficed as a way of reprimanding her for being a jerk ( for a lack for a better word) to everyone. Maybe then, she would learn from her mistakes and start acting more properly towards people.

Yeah see, attempted murder is far, far worse than all Asuka did to Shinji combined. There's a reason killers sped the rest of their lives in prison.

Asuka immensely deepened the show and offered a powerful foil to Shinji. If we on'y judge characters based on how much bad they did, Shinji is worse for the show than Asuka is.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby silvermoonlight » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:26 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Maybe a little. But then again, he is the main character of show, whose sole purpose was to tell his story through his perspective.

As for his "attempted murder", I admit that, to some extent, it was his somewhat justifiable way to get back at Asuka for all the ways she treated him and others. Maybe it was about time someone put her in her place. But then again, it may have been a bit too far. Maybe a slap on the wrist or across the face would have sufficed as a way of reprimanding her for being a jerk ( for a lack for a better word) to everyone. Maybe then, she would learn from her mistakes and start acting more properly towards people.


No offence intended but no one deserves to be strangled or be murdered even if they are difficult and have emotional problems. This kind of thinking lets murders off the hook because the so called victim was asking for it when no one is asking for it period and Asuka did not deserve what happened to her in both the hospital room or the kitchen scene in human instrumentality on top of this your talking about killing a fourteen year old girl who is emotionally stunted.
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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:22 am

"It's not forgivable to yell at someone, but it is forgivable to try and kill someone!"
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:41 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:"It's not forgivable to yell at someone, but it is forgivable to try and kill someone!"

Am I sensing some reverse psychology here?
Asuka'sBigBrother wrote:Asuka immensely deepened the show and offered a powerful foil to Shinji. If we on'y judge characters based on how much bad they did, Shinji is worse for the show than Asuka is.

What is this foil that Asuka provided Shinji with? Such as an obstical for him to overcome and become a better person? And that she's not entirely bad luck to the people around her?
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby Thomas68 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:33 pm

For real? If roles were reversed, I'm not sure about the fapping thing, but she would try to murder Shinji the same way he did, given how emotionally "stable" she is.

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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby TheCarkolum » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:04 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:So she did some self reflection. But that doesn't mean she's not the least bit sorry for how she treated others after coming back from Instrumentality, does it?


But that's the thing. Asuka is not some sort of hero that has certain moral dilemmas about feeling bad for not saving people or others feelings. Nor Shinji, nor Rei. You try to classify NGE as Rei,Shinhi, Asuka = Heroes, Gendo = villain. But it doesn't go like that. The problems with the three have to do with themselves, not others. So, if we morally judge their actions through that lens, Asuka makes good things and shitty things. In that sense, I see no difference between her and Gendo, or between Shinji and her. Does that make the characters in Eva bad people? I am not sure, but if it were, all of them would be included, not only Asuka.
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Postby C.T.1290 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:04 pm

^So I guess in the case of EVA, there's some bad people, and then there are the worse ones. And Gendo is obviously the worst one, and so are the members of SEELE. I'm not sure if Asuka (or Shinji even) is relatively close to Gendo's level, but still pretty bad nonetheless, as if there's little to no goodness in her heart; as if it's tainted by her twisted ambition in being the best, even if means putting down and hurting people to do so.

Honestly, is there any good characters in the show who are not so completely rotten to core like Gendo, Asuka, or Shinji?
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:11 pm

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Honestly, is there any good characters in the show

Define "good".

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:completely rotten to core like Gendo, Asuka, or Shinji?

Two of those, at least, have suffered childhood trauma and mistreatment. You imply that anyone who can't rise above such things without help is irremediably "bad". Frankly, I find this attitude (oft-repeated, in one form or another) to be an embarrassment in this day and age.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby C.T.1290 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:49 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Define "good".

Well, by good, I mean by a person who always do what is right(or as often as they can). And someone who doesn't always treat people like crap(which is exactly what Asuka did). And someone who is honest, self righteous, caring, kind, thoughtful, willing to help for other's sake, asks no reward in return of doing a favor, has a good heart, and selfless as they can be.

And frankly, Asuka is none of those, not one bit at all. And I doubt she'll remotely be any of those things, even for her years to come (unless she really has a way to let go of her issues and start making amends, which I don't see happening soon).

Two of those, at least, have suffered childhood trauma and mistreatment. You imply that anyone who can't rise above such things without help is irremediably "bad". Frankly, I find this attitude (oft-repeated, in one form or another) to be an embarrassment in this day and age.

An embarrassment? How do you mean?
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Postby The Cruel » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:14 pm

None of us has a satisfying and convincing excuse about what kind of person Asuka is. As we know her, she defines the raw anti-heroine who isn't meant to be a likable character, even when there are moments where she shows her biggest strenghts as much as, dare I say, her biggest weaknesses. As much as she can succeed, as much she can fail.

I would be a bigger idiot than she would say idiot to me if I hope from her, that she would ever have someone, to who she can be nicer than usual.

She has potential for many things than just piloting Eva, being a warrioress and being gifted and educated. But it goes sadly to waste by everything what happens in Eva.

I feel and think many things about her, whether I feel angry, bad and unsure about her or better than that. I can only accept her as who and how she is and live with that and I don't have the right to want from her, that she realises my views on her.

Nothing can stop her from what she wants or does and it has always consequences for her and others.

Even the Punisher for an example, isn't different from her even if they are essentially different characters, though the similarities are there, whether about their experiences, their trauma, their talent in warfare, or that they have a habit for having a skull on their clothes that embodies who they are and what they can never be.

Why else would any Marvel character mostly despise the Punisher whether villain or hero? The same applies for Asuka.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:03 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:An embarrassment? How do you mean?

If you are not embarrassed to insist repeatedly and publicly on your lack of sympathy or understanding for those whom you judge not to meet your standards, there is nothing more I can say.
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Re: C.T.1290 versus Asuka. Examining the good and bad.

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Postby TheCarkolum » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:38 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:Well, by good, I mean by a person who always do what is right(or as often as they can). And someone who doesn't always treat people like crap(which is exactly what Asuka did). And someone who is honest, self righteous, caring, kind, thoughtful, willing to help for other's sake, asks no reward in return of doing a favor, has a good heart, and selfless as they can be.


Now, would you (or anybody) be any of those things in the Eva universe? I say it basically so you can put in the characters' skin. You are 14. You live in a wasted, monotonous world. Since you are little you've seen the desperation of the world tearing apart your family, you are one of the few people who can make a difference in the entire world but you got no one to support you. In the case of Rei, you only know one place, that is a room with nothing, and you are full of doubts of who you are and what are you for. In the case of Asuka, your own mother treat a doll as her daughter, you lost everything but yourself and you're afraid of being around anyone and to lose everyone at the same time. In the case of Shinji, you got inferiority complex, you feel useless and pointless and your father uses you as a puppet. Probably, no one would be caring, or kind, or tender. And reasonably.
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