Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby Blockio » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:36 pm

The first piece of evidence is the shape of the ship, especially the front section: if you take away the Eva cages and the guns, you get something that basically looks like a winged cross between Shamshel and Gaghiel.
Second is the fact that the entire HIRNSTAMM bridge is basically one huge entry plug, complete with LCL and all the steps required to connect.
Speaking of entry plugs, the tubes on top of the ship look an awful lot like up-scaled versions, dont they?
On a more biological level, the entire lower part of the ship is dominated by what is undoubtedly a ribcage. Another point are the wings: They are submerged almost all the time and serve no practical purpose, since the ship flys with the help of its AT field, so why are they there? Well, how about they are in fact organic and simply covered up by metal plating, as we see time and time again on the Evas. Adding to that theory is the fact that the five(!) finger-like extensions on the end of the left wing flop around like they were broken and just held together by loose biomass when the Wunder scraped the ground after being hit by Mark.09's beam, and the fact that the ship is bleeding when damaged.
But thats only the beginning of visual similarities with Eva Units: When fighting the Nemesis series, the Wunder hovers in a 90° angle to the water surface. If we assume that the bridge is the head of the ship, what are the Eva cages in that case? Thats right, shoulder pylons.
Another big hint comes from the overall technical terminology: Aside from the launch of the Wunder, what are the only times we hear someone talking about a flywheel? Not to mention that Misato uses the exact same wording when giving order to launch the ship that she uses when an Eva is launched.
The final, and arguably strongest, piece of evidence however is the fact that the ship has an AT field an a halo, as seen when it first takes off, meaning that it is alive and has a soul.

Up until now however, it might just be one massively oversized Eva Unit. Its now, where the numbers come into play: We have never seen anything of the eleventh angel, and it would be fairly atypical to just skip a number.

And thinking of it, that would make perfect sense: As we have seen with Tunniel, there have been experiments to try and outfit an angel with an entry plug. In the case of Tunniel, it failed spectacularily, but in a similar manner to what happened with the S2-Engine, after an initial failure with devastaion results (Unit 04 + second branch), it was put to use and works just fine (MP Evas in the original/Mark.04 in Q).


EDIT: The paragraph below is speculation for the most part and not really evidence for my theory.
Still not convinced? Then how about Ritsuko saying that Mark.09 was the "original master" of the Wunder? To me that sounds a lot like "if you want to control an angel, you need to put an angel in control"
Last edited by Blockio on Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby Sachi » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:32 pm

How do you address Mark.09 being referred to as a "vessel of Adam", and does this affect your interpretation of the Wunder?
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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:59 pm

If this means an Eva will punch a sky boat I'm on board.
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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby Blockio » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:06 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:How do you address Mark.09 being referred to as a "vessel of Adam", and does this affect your interpretation of the Wunder?


My original post consists of a lot of notes I wrote while on the bus copypasted together... I guess there was a part that slipped through my radar. There was supposed to be an explanation along the lines of this:


Still not convinced? Then how about Ritsuko saying that Mark.09 was the "original master" of the Wunder? To me that sounds a lot like "if you want to control an angel, you need to put an angel in control". My guess would be that in order to actually control an angel, a part of its core has to be removed to "tame" is, and something it accepts as its master needs to be inserted into the hole in the core, in a similar manner like the entry plug system, except the Angel has no human soul it can connect to, so the only thing that works is an Eva, and - in lack of a better term - the "power level" of said Eva decides the synch ratio. Seeing how both Unit 01 and Mark.09 posess angelic properties (and an S2 engine), they are the ones who are best suited for the connection. (the following part came to my mind just now) Maybe they even are the only Evas capable of passing the equivalent of the "minimum synch" due to their angelic properties (aside from Mark.06 and Eva 13).

I hope that cleared things up a bit, even if that last paragraph wasnt even the one I think is the strongest evidence.
EDIT: I realise that some parts are a bit incoherent, thats largely due to the circumstances and timespan they were written, I got distracted a few times while writing the individual notes
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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby Sachi » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:32 pm

That still doesn't address the "vessel of Adam" bit.

We're explicitly told Mark 06 and Unit 13 are Adams that were refitted into Evangelions, making up two of the four possible Adams. Unit-01 is heavily implied to be the third. However, Mark 09 is uniquely referred to as a "vessel of Adam" or an "Adam's vessel". Combined with the knowledge that Mark 09 was the Wunder's original master, this makes things rather confusing.

If both the Mark 09 and Wunder were the result of experimentation on the 11th Angel, why is the term "vessel of Adam" a thing? And how does it fit in with your theory?
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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby Blockio » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:38 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:That still doesn't address the "vessel of Adam" bit.

We're explicitly told Mark 06 and Unit 13 are Adams that were refitted into Evangelions, making up two of the four possible Adams. Unit-01 is heavily implied to be the third. However, Mark 09 is uniquely referred to as a "vessel of Adam" or an "Adam's vessel". Combined with the knowledge that Mark 09 was the Wunder's original master, this makes things rather confusing.

If both the Mark 09 and Wunder were the result of experimentation on the 11th Angel, why is the term "vessel of Adam" a thing? And how does it fit in with your theory?


Thats not quite my point. The entire last paragraph is only supposed to say that given the nature of angels, it would only make sense for them to only obey another angel or a very powerful Eva. And the quote is there because it confirms that Mark.09 has at some point been in control of the Wunder.
That last section is just another thing I noticed that, given that the things I mentioned before are indeed true, furthers strongens the theory, but the entire thing can be left out completely and it would still make sense.
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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:46 pm

When Kaworu "falls" to become the 13th Angel, Mari says, "A thirteenth? Even though the twelfth should have been the last?"

The 12th being the last Angel (prior to Gendo's meddlings) rather strongly implies that the 11th met a familiar fate: it was killed, it exploded into blood, and one or more rainbows appeared. If this did not happen, and the 11th is in fact alive and well, then odds are Seele would make sure it was good and dead before proceeding with the ceremony they've been planning for fourteen years.

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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:48 am

I always assumed that we knew that the AAA Wunder was some sort of fallen Angel. All that stuff about the Adams were separate from all that stuff about the Angels. I always assumed that referring to Mark.09 as "Adam's Vessel" meant that it wasn't an angel, simply because the characters wouldn't be using cryptic dialogue such as "Adam's Vessel" in order to describe the angel when they've already used terms like "angel" to describe angels in the past. The fact that Mark.09's designation as "Adam's Vessel" was different from that of the designation of "11'th Angel" meant that it wasn't the "11'th Angel," but was instead "Adam's Vessel."

Now, what "Adam's Vessel" means is yet to be determined, but at no point in the series is it ever linked to or referred to as an angel.

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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby Joseki » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:52 am

My (probably very wrong) theory is that the Wunder carried the four Adams in their intergalactic travel, assuming that Anno didn't change it from NGE, and Mark.09 controlled it while the other Adams slept. Maybe instead of the white Moon they found the Wunder in Antartica. :uhh:
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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby Blockio » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:34 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:When Kaworu "falls" to become the 13th Angel, Mari says, "A thirteenth? Even though the twelfth should have been the last?"

The 12th being the last Angel (prior to Gendo's meddlings) rather strongly implies that the 11th met a familiar fate: it was killed, it exploded into blood, and one or more rainbows appeared. If this did not happen, and the 11th is in fact alive and well, then odds are Seele would make sure it was good and dead before proceeding with the ceremony they've been planning for fourteen years.


Good point, although there are two ways in which my theory could still be correct:
As we see with Shamshel's whips and with Zeruel, even in the Rebuilds, if an Angel is killed, it doesnt disappear completely but leaves behind a corpse. If that corpse was salvaged, weaponised and have an artificial core/an Eva with angelic properties inserted into it to power the ship (we see at least one MArk.04 artificial angel installed on the ship as secondary power source, I think it needs a "real" Eva to use the main engine), it could still be the remains of the eleventh angel. (Now that I think of it, the triangle-shaped thing in the front looks like its a skull of something)

The other way is that, as we see in 2.0 with Eva 02, the core was somehow extracted from the angel, leaving the corpse unharmed when it was destroyed (Since we have never seen it happen, thats 100% speculation, but could make sense from a storywriting perspective)

I actually had a few sentences about it being the weaponised corpse in my initial notes, but dropped that theory since a corpse doesnt have an AT field
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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:50 pm

>As we see with Shamshel's whips and with Zeruel

The 10th Angel dissolved completely into fluid the moment the core was destroyed.

The 5th Angel's whips did not necessarily stick around, either. As we see with the death of the 6th, there can be a bit of a delay between the Angel's death and its complete disintegration.

You have to ignore things that you yourself establish in order to make the "corpse" idea maybe-possibly work, which probably means that's not a good way to go. What's wrong with the 11th Angel being an offscreen presence like many of the Evas were, and the Wunder simply being a new mythological element that isn't meant to be shoehorned into what we already know? Its stated connection to another out-of-nowhere new element we are totally ignorant about (Mark.09, an "Adams' Vessel") makes Wunder seem like a pretty obvious contender for "wait and see".

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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby Blockio » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:42 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:>As we see with Shamshel's whips and with Zeruel

The 10th Angel dissolved completely into fluid the moment the core was destroyed.


Wait, really?

Welp, time to rewatch 2.0

Reichu wrote:

You have to ignore things that you yourself establish in order to make the "corpse" idea maybe-possibly work, which probably means that's not a good way to go. What's wrong with the 11th Angel being an offscreen presence like many of the Evas were, and the Wunder simply being a new mythological element that isn't meant to be shoehorned into what we already know? Its stated connection to another out-of-nowhere new element we are totally ignorant about (Mark.09, an "Adams' Vessel") makes Wunder seem like a pretty obvious contender for "wait and see".

Thats the reason why I dropped that theory initially, too many things dont really add up. And while you definitely have a point with the Mari quote, I still kind of doubt that it was quite as easy, especially since in the Rebuilds, every Angel was in some way more powerful than the one previous to it, and thats a pretty hard thing to do after Zeruel, so it wouldnt surprise me if, similar to the twelfth angel, the eleventh initially couldnt be defeated, so it was made into something else - the Wunder, while the twelfth was too apstract to do that (especially if the whole core removing thing is true), but thats just theorycrafting.

What is a fact however is that the Wunder is in some way of angelic nature, otherwise it would be incapable of projecting an AT field and a halo.

Also, sorry if some of the things Im saying are somewhat incoherent, I am currently sick and my brain isnt quite working the way its supposed to sometimes
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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:51 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:You have to ignore things that you yourself establish in order to make the "corpse" idea maybe-possibly work, which probably means that's not a good way to go.

You know what? You're right. In NTE all of the Angels dissolve. I figured that maybe AAA Wunder could have been like Ramiel in NGE, where it had to be slowly deconstructed over a series of days, but that precedent hadn't been established in this new series yet, so it's best not to assume that the 11th Angel could have had a similar situation where it didn't dissolve instantly upon death.

I could argue that the bridge of the Wunder is the core, as its core-like shape was revealed int he circular camera motion establishing it in 3.0. I still think it might be an old core of some kind, but it being the core of an angel isn't really as likely as I thought it would be.

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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby Blockio » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:38 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I could argue that the bridge of the Wunder is the core, as its core-like shape was revealed int he circular camera motion establishing it in 3.0. I still think it might be an old core of some kind, but it being the core of an angel isn't really as likely as I thought it would be.


Well, the round thing Unit 01 is kept in looks suspiciously like a core (with some armor around it) to me, so it might be just that: A modified core to "break" the angel, and then have an Eva inserted into it for control.
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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:58 pm

It's not a core, but this fleshy womb-like thing -- effectively identical to what Eva-13 was pulled out of at Nerv HQ.

The new films aren't very subtle when it comes to cores. Anything that is one or is meant to be identified with one has that animated glowy-flowy red texture used on it.

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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby Blockio » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:53 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:It's not a core, but this fleshy womb-like thing -- effectively identical to what Eva-13 was pulled out of at Nerv HQ.

The new films aren't very subtle when it comes to cores. Anything that is one or is meant to be identified with one has that animated glowy-flowy red texture used on it.

Im not sure about that one... that thing, whatever it might be, is too conveniently placed in the middle of the chest to not play a significant role in the biology of the Wunder. I mean its literally where the heart would be on a fish with similar anatomy
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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby silvermoonlight » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:42 am

I agree that its a weaponized angel but I don't think its the eleventh angel, I think it's Gaghiel because the size is about the same and the white areas look like ribs and bones and they said with the third angel in 2.0 that you can strip an angel down to its bones and it can still be alive so maybe they found a way to control her/him hence they can use the AT field to pick up ships in 3.0.

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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby Blockio » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:56 am

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:I agree that its a weaponized angel but I don't think its the eleventh angel, I think it's Gaghiel because the size is about the same and the white areas look like ribs and bones and they said with the third angel in 2.0 that you can strip an angel down to its bones and it can still be alive so maybe they found a way to control her/him hence they can use the AT field to pick up ships in 3.0.



Thats exactly where Im coming from. Except that Gaghiel didnt appear in the rebuilds and the only angel that we have yet to see is the eleventh, so its a bit of a process of elimination here
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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby silvermoonlight » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:41 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:Thats exactly where Im coming from. Except that Gaghiel didnt appear in the rebuilds and the only angel that we have yet to see is the eleventh, so its a bit of a process of elimination here


That true I am hoping that we might get some flash backs in the last movie, because I think Mari, Asuka and possibly Rei (Before she was exsposed as a clone) were fighting angels while Shinji was gone as I've heard some fan art that points to Asuka eye being a result of the mass eva series while others think its Bardiel.
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Re: Theory: AAA WUNDER is the weaponised eleventh angel

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Postby Blockio » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:09 pm

View Original Postsilvermoonlight wrote:That true I am hoping that we might get some flash backs in the last movie, because I think Mari, Asuka and possibly Rei (Before she was exsposed as a clone) were fighting angels while Shinji was gone as I've heard some fan art that points to Asuka eye being a result of the mass eva series while others think its Bardiel.

I definitely second the flashback part, even if its just a few images of Unit/Mark 07

But, lets be real here, 4.0 is bound to have some flashbacks in it, even Anno cant leave a 14-year timeskip unexplained. (or there is a extra 2.5 movie, which I would be completely fine with and would finally give the x.0 a meaning)
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