About ' EOE : I Need You '

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About ' EOE : I Need You '

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Postby Ekonomi122 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:38 am

Why EoE was ' I Need You ' ? Isn't Asuka and Shinji hate each other ? Should Shinji need Kaworu than Asuka because he really love him ? I bet Asuka must be happy live without Shinji .

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Re: About ' EOE : I Need You '

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Postby Cybermat47 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:56 am

Asuka and Shinji’s relationship with each other is one of the best parts of NGE, in my opinion. There does seem to be something of a mutual attraction there, but that is of course overshadowed by their mental issues, traumas, and trangressions against each other (Asuka’s verbal and sometimes physical abuse, and Shinji’s sexual assault and “physical” attack during instrumentality).

So, I think that their interaction at the end there is a sign that they want to move on from the terrible relationship they had before (with Shinji’s attempted strangulation of her being a result of his “programming” that Asuka breaks by stroking his cheek), and that they need the best of each other in order to cope with what happened.

That’s my interpretation, at least.
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Re: About ' EOE : I Need You '

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Postby Ekonomi122 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:40 am

View Original PostCybermat47 wrote:Asuka and Shinji’s relationship with each other is one of the best parts of NGE, in my opinion. There does seem to be something of a mutual attraction there, but that is of course overshadowed by their mental issues, traumas, and trangressions against each other (Asuka’s verbal and sometimes physical abuse, and Shinji’s sexual assault and “physical” attack during instrumentality).

So, I think that their interaction at the end there is a sign that they want to move on from the terrible relationship they had before (with Shinji’s attempted strangulation of her being a result of his “programming” that Asuka breaks by stroking his cheek), and that they need the best of each other in order to cope with what happened.

That’s my interpretation, at least.


I find Shinji have better relationship with Shikinami than Soryu .

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Re: About ' EOE : I Need You '

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:13 am

They "hated" each other because they hated themselves. When they were suppressing their self hatred, it was evident they cared for each other. When they were forced to face their self hatred, they hated each other as well as just about everything and everyone around them as well as themselves.

Then in the movie, Asuka finds the will to fight for her survival, Shinji chooses life over collective suicide, and Asuka makes that same choice.

By the end both have decided their lives aren't worthless. As a result, Asuka is able to show Shinji affection, and Shinji is willing to express the vulnerable part of himself rather than suppress it.
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Re: About ' EOE : I Need You '

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Postby C.T.1290 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:29 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:When they were suppressing their self hatred, it was evident they cared for each other.

I don't think that much is clear.
Then in the movie, Asuka finds the will to fight for her survival, Shinji chooses life over collective suicide, and Asuka makes that same choice.

I'm still not sure exactly what she learned in Instrumentality since we were never that through her perspective. She might have came back because she refuses to be with the others and share the world with them. Remember that she said she refuses to share the same tub and toilet with Misato and Shinji. She doesn't share with anybody.
By the end both have decided their lives aren't worthless. As a result, Asuka is able to show Shinji affection, and Shinji is willing to express the vulnerable part of himself rather than suppress it.

If that is Asuka's way of showing affection towards someone( caress his face first, then call him disgusting), then she has a bit of a twisted way of showing it. But I guess that is her definition for care.
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Re: About ' EOE : I Need You '

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:15 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:I don't think that much is clear.

How many times do I have to repost the same examples explicitly disproving your claim for you to just admit it's wrong?
-> tells Shinji depending on the validation of his a-hole father is stupid
episode(21:16)
-> Compliments Shinji and tries to get him to think better of himself
episode-15/(11:57)
-> Goes to the hospital room where Shinji is because, *gasp*, she cares about Shinji:
episode-16/(21:38)
-> Gets angry when she finds out her classmate is also an eva pilot:
episode-17/
-> Tries to tell Shinji the truth when everyone else is basically lying to him:
episode-18/
-> Gets angry that Shinji doesn't value himself:
episode-16/(2:07)

I'm still not sure exactly what she learned in Instrumentality since we were never that through her perspective. She might have came back because she refuses to be with the others and share the world with them. Remember that she said she refuses to share the same tub and toilet with Misato and Shinji. She doesn't share with anybody.

She decided life is worth living, hence she decided to live and fought to stay alive vs the eva series.

Shinji called Asuka disgusting


It seems your irrational hatred for a 14 year old has driven you to invent dialogue no one actually said. Asuka did not call Shinji disgusting. What she called disgusting was Shinji masturbating in front of her comatose body. It's a fitting choice of words, because masturbating on someone's comatose body, is disgusting.

The line is also translated to "I feel sick" which again, makes sense, as being masturbated to while comatose and getting brutally killed by a bunch of nihilistic drones likely would leave any rational person feeling a little sick.
Last edited by Asuka'sBigBrother on Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: About ' EOE : I Need You '

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Postby Cybermat47 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:47 am

View Original PostC.T.1290 wrote:If that is Asuka's way of showing affection towards someone( caress his face first, then call him disgusting), then she has a bit of a twisted way of showing it. But I guess that is her definition for care.


The “how disgusting” line was made up by Yūko Miyamura, Asuka’s voice actress, after Hideaki Anno asked her how she would react if someone masturbated to her while she slept.

Given that Anno seemingly intended for Asuka to be talking about Shinji’s sexual assault, I’d say that she was being remarkably kind in that scene.
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Re: About ' EOE : I Need You '

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Postby CaesarMagnus » Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:08 am

The interactions of this scene are full of nuances, and it would be useless to look for an ultimate description of it, because there's not. That said, I don't think C.T.1290 is wrong saying that "Asuka called Shinji disgusting", and I actually agree with him. He didn't invent any dialogue, but seeing the scene in detail, and knowing the context, it's perfectly plausible to believe that Asuka is addressing Shinji when she says 'Kimochi warui'.

I mean, just one second before the famous line, Asuka has these eyes glaring directly at him:
SPOILER: Show
Image

'Kimochi warui' can have other meaning apart from "How disgusting", but you normally don't say "I feel sick" while looking at someone directly so coldly. And, as a Japanese language student, I can say that when someone says 'Kimochi warui (or 'Kimoi' in short) looking at someone with those glacial eyes, and in the coldest voice possible, it's more than probable that she means "you're so disgusting".

Obviously, she's mainly referring to the hospital scene, as we know thanks to Miyamura clarifying it and describing how she made up the sentence. But that doesn't mean Asuka is only referring to the masturbation. I rather think she has plenty of other reasons to be rightfully pissed off with Shinji and call him disgusting, being the hospital scene the major reason, but not the only one.

As I think I've quoted other times, here's an interesting analysis of her bitterness near the ending:

SPOILER: Show
Bagheera wrote:How could she not be bitter? Even the most charitable view of her has to acknowledge that she has ample reason. To hell with her final words, she was raped, abandoned, cast aside, and ultimately dismembered while everyone's hero Shinji did absolutely nothing to save her. And let's not forget he then went the extra mile and masturbated over her comatose body. Yes, she made things worse for herself. Yes, there was nothing he could really do. But no bitterness at all?

Come now. She's a girl, a human being, not a saint. She'd have to feel bitter after all that. Instrumentality might give her the chance to put it in perspective and give him a second chance, but anything beyond that just ignores the show's events and what they mean to her.

At best, she can blame Shinji for not helping her fight the harpies sooner. But listen to her lines over the comm system when she is. She doesn't sound bitter. She sounds angry, yes, but everything we know about Asuka gives her reason to sound angry. Indeed, whenever she is angry at Shinji, it's usually not for the reason she says it is. When they kiss, and she subsequently runs to the bathroom, she's not angry because she kissed him, she's angry because Shinji stood limp and didn't even try to embrace her.

His behavior reflects guilt and teenage hormones, not love. He never showed much regard for her at all over the course of the series, and that holds true up to the final scene of the show.

He still wasn't there for her. He's the one who got better sync scores than she did. He's the one whose Eva responded to him. He's the one who didn't comfort her after Arael tore apart her mind. He's the one who disgraced her in the hospital room. He's the one who didn't rescue her when the Eva series tore her apart. He's the one who let her mama die.

But really, none of that's the important part. He's also the one who didn't pay attention to her. He's the one who didn't respond to her kiss. He's the one who wouldn't hold her. He's the one who didn't understand what she was saying to him. He's the one who gave up!

None of this is rational, or fair, but that's not the point. It's still true, and it's how hatred works.

If Instrumentality is a panacea the whole point about opening up to others, about life being pain but still worth living, goes right out the window. Asuka proves that that's not how it worked with her final words.
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Re: About ' EOE : I Need You '

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Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:25 pm

Quoting doesn't work for some reason, bear with me.
View Original PostCaesarMagnus wrote:The interactions of this scene are full of nuances, and it would be useless to look for an ultimate description of it, because there's not. That said, I don't think C.T.1290 is wrong saying that "Asuka called Shinji disgusting", and I actually agree with him. He didn't invent any dialogue, but seeing the scene in detail, and knowing the context, it's perfectly plausible to believe that Asuka is addressing Shinji when she says 'Kimochi warui'.
Yes, Shinji's disgusting actions, as has been made clear by sources of authority.

That kind of expression would be realistic for either translation of the line. People who are sick often act a little detached. She also isn't "glaring" at him, there's no anger in her expression.

People who are sick of ten speak more coldly and look more "coldly" as they are more likely to act detached. She's sick of traumatic events, so it's natural she acts disconnected or coldly when thinking about said traumatic events. Either translation works fine for the visual or audio cues from Asuka, and either specifically refer to certain events, not Shinji as a whole. You can argue she thinks that about Shinji as a whole if you want, but you argument shouldn't be based on dialogue which we've already been told the context for.

If it was meant to refer to something else, those other things would have been mentioned by Miyamura. Even if we stretched it to refer to all of Shinji's disgusting actions, that's still not the same as being disgusted with Shinji himself.

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Re: About ' EOE : I Need You '

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:12 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:{quote]Bagheera says...{/quote]
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Re: About ' EOE : I Need You '

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:20 pm

View Original PostCaesarMagnus wrote:it's perfectly plausible to believe that Asuka is addressing Shinji when she says 'Kimochi warui'.
I can't find the page which had a French script for EoE -- it seems to have evaporated in the decade-plus since I first found it -- in which that was indeed the reading. Another French site that does exist today has the same reading for kimochi warui.

Personally, I took it as a statement about the whole situation she had woken to find herself in.
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Re: About ' EOE : I Need You '

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Postby Reichu » Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:37 pm

View Original PostEkonomi122 wrote:Why EoE was ' I Need You ' ?

https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/com ... tle_cards/

@ where thread has gone in general:

Reichu wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/comments/64z8sn/quick_question_on_eoe/dg6rlh0/

When considering the final scene, my mind keeps going back to the two quick cuts in "proto-HIP" where Asuka and Shinji are "having sex", and share the lines:

Code: Select all

Asuka: I get so pissed off when I look at you!

Shinji: Because you're like me?


Exactly what this means is subsequently explored through Shinji and Asuka's increasingly volatile psychic encounters. We know the gist, regardless: they both lost their mothers under traumatic circumstances at a young age, suffered an emotionally distant father, and became young adults dependent on piloting cyborgs (with their moms inside) for all real sense of self worth. (It's more complicated than that, of course, but doing this issue justice would require an essay.)

Despite feeling compelled toward Shinji on account of their many similarities, for Asuka to accept that they are similar in the first place means accepting her own frailty. Denying weakness is how she has survived. The idea that she must embrace it in any way, for any reason, is disgusting, enraging. It is easier to reject Shinji and debase him than to concede to their complementary wounds.

I cannot really address the reason why Asuka would passively allow herself to be strangled, and then finally respond to it with a gentle caress. But there is something of note regarding Shinji's reaction: Asuka's caress is rather overtly similar to the ones he received from Yui (both upon their reunion in episode 16, and upon their parting in 26'). Thus it is conceivable that Shinji broke down because he was reminded of the mother who is gone forever. Like child!Asuka (at Kyoko's funeral) in response to Shinji's earlier "Because I'm like you?", he is sobbing for his departed "mama".

There is no real way Asuka can know this, since their minds are no longer linked at this point, but this connection feels thematically resonant to me. First, Asuka is now in the same boat; whatever exactly happened to Kyoko's soul, Asuka is no longer in the position of being a child protected within her mother's "womb", given a sense of purpose by her "first other". She's on her own now. Second, Asuka reacting with disgust to Shinji crying over mommy brings things nicely full circle...

Code: Select all

Asuka: Mama... Mama...

Shinji: You're just a child yourself.


Sorry if this is a bit rambling. I've never really tried to write this particular line of thought down before.


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