“Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Chuckman » Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:01 pm

That makes me think they tried and couldn't figure it out, which is morbidly hilarious.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Guy Nacks » Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:37 pm

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:Everything else hints at the kissing scene which makes the sex scene redundant.


Kissing and sex have enormous differences in their effects on people during and afterwards. You cannot say that a kiss scene makes a sex scene redundant when one is significantly more psychologically affecting than the other. This is why this theory and the supporting evidence is as big a deal as the proponents make it out to be, because it fundamentally alters the reading of every single character interaction that Shinji and Asuka have from episode 16 onwards, and all that that implies.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:29 pm

View Original PostBlockio wrote:Sign me out of here, this thread isnt going anywhere sadly. Started out really strong, but has basically become a "no it isnt"/"you bet it is" shipping war.

An oversimplification I think.

More like:
"here's evidence"
"that evidence works fine with the kissing scene alone"
"You're ignoring the bigger picture!"

Not once have I mentioned shipping. Your mischaracterizing of opposing arguments is simply a method to avoid addressing them.
View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:Kissing and sex have enormous differences in their effects on people during and afterwards. You cannot say that a kiss scene makes a sex scene redundant when one is significantly more psychologically affecting than the other. This is why this theory and the supporting evidence is as big a deal as the proponents make it out to be, because it fundamentally alters the reading of every single character interaction that Shinji and Asuka have from episode 16 onwards, and all that that implies.

Sure, sex and kissing aren't the same, but the results being tipped as evidence of the former would also perfectly fit as evidence of the latter. And, no, it doesn't fundamentally alter a thing. Fundamentally, the significance is just the same, sex would in theory, just put a greater emphasis on the same conclusions. In this context, the sex scene would just be an exaggerated version of the kissing scene. It could have added something to the story, but as its given no attention later on, it doesn't end up doing anything.

Any potential meaning found in NGE derived from the sex scene is one you could derive from the kissing scene, hence this supposed sex scene would be redundant.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Chuckman » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:46 pm

This has me tempted to rewatch the series for the first time in years, to see how it feels different.

Asuka'sBigBrother wrote:


This isn't really an argument. You're telling us it's redundant because it's redundant.

Sex is very different from a kiss. It matters, in terms of how everyone's behavior can be interpreted, whether their only physical contact was a weird uncomfortable and passionless kiss or an attempt at sex.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby zlink64 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:11 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:This has me tempted to rewatch the series for the first time in years, to see how it feels different.



People should rewatch if their memories are foggy imo. This theory seems better than actually it is when watched out of context. It's why my opinion became more stern as we went along. At first I was like "seems wrong but sounds like it make sense" double checked I'm own and became "yeah it's just wrong".
hmmm

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:49 am

Yikes, this thread is becoming stale fast.

First, some over all general oversights being made by some of those arguing the validity of the sex theory:

While explicitly graphic sexual content was undoubtedly forbidden on daytime broadcast television in Japan back in 1995-1996 (the original airdates of NGE), blatant suggestions towards sexual relationships in broadcast television were not forbidden in the slightest. There is no censorial need by the filmmakers to be "careful" in how they suggested Asuka and Shinji had sex, nor is there any censorial (or narrative) need for the idea to be designed to be "plausibly deniable." Asuka and Shinji aren't exactly underage for sex with each other, according to Japanese laws. They aren't legally considered "minors" in the American sense of the word in this area of social activity. So the concept itself isn't even illegal, and therefore the very idea isn't in any need of cleverly censoring for general audiences according to Japanese standards. You guys are trying to solve censorial issues that don't exist in Japan. This is clear American bias in interpreting Japanese media. This isn't a bad bias, but it does need to be pointed out before we can really consider the implications of Episodes 15 and 16 as shown to a Japanese audience by a Japanese filmmaker through a Japanese distribution culture.

Also, (putting aside Episode 20, which was rumored to have gotten someone at TV Tokyo fired for not censoring properly,) Anno is very explicit about narrative intent in his work, and can cleverly do so without needing to censor his work in their first place. And, while we never see Kaji and Misato having sex, we know they've had sex simply because of the atmosphere those characters have around them. We see them making out on the elevator in Episode 9, and we see them coyly flirting with each other almost every time they meet. Now, clearly Shinji and Asuka would never behave in that same way, even if they were having sex. But Anno would have used equally as explicit means to suggest their sexual relationship if they had one. (Again, this isn't an illegal concept in Japan, seeing as how their laws don't label 14-year-olds as being legally considered minors when it comes to sexual activities with each other. The need for censorship in conveying this simple idea is unnecessary for NGE.) Anno would have shown the two characters entering an empty room and shutting the door behind them. Or there would have been lingering still shots on both of their clothes sloppily placed in the floor or over a chair somewhere. There are PG ways of conveying sex between 14-year-olds, which isn't even a "dangerous" concept at the time according to Japanese laws.

I mean, seriously, we've seen Asuka's side boob and all but Shinji's junk. There's no need or even any precedent for Anno to be shy about this aspect of his story in Episode 15, if there is such an aspect of his story for him to be shy over to begin with. He can be clear in his narrative intent without the need to censor his ideas for daytime television. So why write and film it in such a way where the sex scene almost doesn't need to exist at all in order for the narrative to make sense? That's just poor writing, and I've never seen people on this forum actively argue for poor writing techniques in such a positive manner until now.

Now to respond to some of the more specific points that have been made in this thread:

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Sex with Shinji is a strike at Misato which affirms hr adulthood. Also, don’t get hung up on sex with Shinji.

I would have to blatantly ignore all of the aspects of Eva where Asuka herself is also hung up on the sex with Shinji aspect of things. Hell, in Episode 22 she won't even get in the same tub that's "been used by Misato and Stupid Shinji." All of the episodes around Ep 15 make it clear that the thought of being intimate or sexually active with Shinji disgusts Asuka. (It's the main reason why the fanbase calls her a "bitch" for most of its history.)

Also, again, if Asuka's adulthood was affirmed between Episodes 15 and 16, then she wouldn't have that much of a character arc left over for the rest of the series. Affirming adulthood is an arc ending event for both Asuka and Shinji. Anything that tries to suggest that they got over their hang ups in their "coming of age" narrative actively undermines the themes and character development expressing in the rest of the show.

View Original PostBlockio wrote:The combination of all of the evidence. I dont want to be disrespectful, but in every comment in this thread you take one specific scene and call it debunked by saying that it might as well refer to the kiss scene, completely disegarding the biggert picture.

To me, it's the bigger picture of Eva that debunks the sex theory. It's not just that everything can be explained by the kiss scene and by Misato's "You are number one" line in the following episode, but also that anytime we see Asuka she's actively distancing herself from Shinji, especially in the events immediately after the kiss scene. Also, she was rejected by Kaji just moments before the episode ends. This isn't is a clear suggestion towards un-seen hanky-panky inasmuch as it is a scene clearly steering away from the implication of Shinji and Asuka getting closer after the episode's ending. She would rather get rejected by Kaji than be intimate with Shinji.

EDIT: For context in this discussion, I popped in the Evangelion Death Blu-ray, skipped to the chapter called "Do You Love Me?" and saw only scenes involving Shinji and Rei in episodes 5 and 6. What the hell even is this title doing in an Asuka-centric thread? The title isn't even right.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby anonymaus » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:05 pm

Here's something interesting.

In between episode 9 (the day of the "This is the impenetrable wall of Jericho!" line) and 15 (the night of the alleged sex), there are 7 days, as far as I can tell. An extra day passes after the line during episode 9, then each episode till episode 15 seems to have one dawn and dusk.

Here's the biblical fable of Jericho.
Then the Lord said to Joshua, “See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men.
March around the city once with all the armed men. Do this for six days.
Have seven priests carry trumpets of rams’ horns in front of the ark. On the seventh day, march around the city seven times, with the priests blowing the trumpets.
When you hear them sound a long blast on the trumpets, have the whole army give a loud shout; then the wall of the city will collapse and the army will go up, everyone straight in.”


I don't know about trumpets, but Asuka seemed impressed enough by Shinji's violin. She kissed him right afterwards.
Last edited by anonymaus on Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:14 pm

View Original Postanonymaus wrote:Here's something interesting

Inbetween episode 9 (the "This is the impenetrable wall of Jericho!" line) and episode 15, the night of the alleged sex, I was able to count 7 days. You don't see a calendar after episode 9 to confirm it, but in terms of accountable dawns and dusks, it's 7 days that passed

Well, the show does drip with religious symbolism. And in seven episode's time, and seven countable days, Asuka's "wall" has fallen, with Shinji being the one to "breach" her "inner city" it certainly seems plausible, and would fit well with the theory.

Also, I agree with zlink64, where you throw as much frustration at someone as Asuka does to Shinji, she does have feelings for him on some level, constantly trying to get noticed by him. She dislikes when Shinji pays more attention to Rei, and in Magma Diver, she certainly tries to grab his attention by flaunting her figure at him, and even making a not-so-subtle erection joke, which from my experience you never do with someone you aren't comfortable with on some level.

If they did have sex, which seems very likely considering everything I've read in this thread, it would be the culmination of everything Asuka has done to get Shinji's attention focused solely on her.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:44 pm

^ Shinji never walked around Asuka 13 times, not even in a metaphorical sense. The Jericho reference doesn’t work in this regard.

At this point I just want to know what you guys are smoking and whether or not I can get some.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Chuckman » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:35 pm

Asuka wants to have sex to affirm her adulthood. Why are you assuming (or assuming I’m assuming, or whatever) that it would work?

What happens when it dawns on her that she doesn’t really feel, nor is she treated, any different?

Secondly: Anno may not have had any censorial need to be coy. What about artistic need?
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby zlink64 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:47 pm

"What about artistic need?"

Artistically this make other things seem redundant and pointless and even contradictory depending on interpretation. But definitely redundant regardless of interpretation.
hmmm

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Chuckman » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:04 pm

How is it redundant regardless of interpretation?
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby zlink64 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:13 pm

Because if you buy this you already buy that Asuka is pissed over Shinji response to her. You are probably gonna have the same interpretation of now redundant kiss scene and scenes associated with the kiss scene. I guess you could have a different interpretation of the kiss scene along with the sex scene that would make the kiss scene not redundant but that would be very weird and probably won't make sense. I say probably but I'm pretty confident it wouldn't.
hmmm

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:02 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Asuka wants to have sex to affirm her adulthood. Why are you assuming (or assuming I’m assuming, or whatever) that it would work?

What happens when it dawns on her that she doesn’t really feel, nor is she treated, any different?

The characters try a lot of things to attempt to affirm their existence that don’t work, all of them are explicitly meantioned in the series because that’s what the whole series is explicitly about.

Secondly: Anno may not have had any censorial need to be coy. What about artistic need?

There is one sex scene in Episode 18 of His and Her Circumstances, and it is perhaps one of the most artistically coy and subtle things in Anno’s entire career. It’s breathtaking and beautiful, probably only expresses emotionally what in all actuality was two lonely teenagers awkwardly losing their virginity. Everyone should watch it.

This thing between Asuka and Shinji is nowhere near that level of artistically coy expression. The most coy NGE gets about sex is when Ritsuko angrily blurts out about Gendo’s love-making to his face. There isn’t enough there to argue artistic coy expression in even Eps 15 and 16, since that would need to involve an actual coy artistic expression, which there is none.

Also, I can only imagine Asuka using her sexy-time history with Shinji to emotionally tear Rei limb from limb in Episode 24. “Hey bitch, I fucked your boy toy” kinda thing. She isn’t above that behavior. The fact that she doesn’t flaunt this to destroy Rei strongly suggests that there’s nothing to flaunt to begin with.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby pwhodges » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:15 pm

Would the acceptance that they had sex in ep 15 change the interpretation of the rest of the series significantly?

If so, would this materially affect other points of interpretation which have been agreed for decades now?

If not, why is it even necessary to construct this new idea?
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby anonymaus » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:54 pm

why is it even necessary to construct this new idea?

It's not a construction but an interpretation of the available evidence. If the interpretation has to have a purpose then it would be to understand Evangelion better.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:46 pm

That’s a rather vague and non-specific purpose for a very blunt and unique hypothesis. It actively washes away any of the importance to the characters in an idea that was supposedly about the characters.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:42 am

Still waiting for a response to this:
The only evidence supporting it is a instrumentality scene that may or may not be a memory. Asuka smiling afterward and Shinji being cocky would make just as much sense with or without the sex scene as a result of the kissing scene. Asuka putting up a front, Shinji feeling the same artifical pride. The credit scene was from a seperate episode. The voice of the girl offering Asuka a teddy bear was that of a gradeschool girl being nice(feigned kindness admittedly), not of someone having sex.

There's only one piece of evdience, and it's only possible evidence. So the theory here is nothing more than a possibility. A rather questionable one at that as the scene wasn't given the attention such a moment would warrant.

It seems to me that I've addressed every piece of evidence provided in the video. If there's something I'm missing, feel free to point it out.
Last edited by Asuka'sBigBrother on Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Sachi » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:14 am

View Original PostAsuka'sBigBrother wrote:Still waiting for a response to this:

It seems to me that I've addressed every piece of evidence provided in the video. If there's something I'm missing, feel free to point it out. And this time, be specifc.

More vague deflections like "you're missing the bigger picture" will be read by me as a substitute for a concession.

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Re: “Do you love me” Theory - Asuka & Shinji Had Sex in Episode 15

Postby Asuka'sBigBrother » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:21 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:This bullying attitude needs to stop. Agree to disagree, and stop being a jerk.

Fair enough, I came off rather passive aggressive here. I'll edit my post.

Sorry.

Is that better?
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